OT Coronavirus: America in chaos, News and Updates. One million Americans dead and counting (4 Viewers)

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Phatguysrule said:
Is there actual data to back that up? I'm not sure.
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1) Gazit et al. out of Israel showed that “SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13-fold (95% CI, 8-21) increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected.” When adjusting for the time of disease/vaccine, there was a 27-fold increased risk (95% CI, 13-57).

2) Ignoring the risk of infection, given that someone was infected, Acharya et al. found “no significant difference in cycle threshold values between vaccinated and unvaccinated, asymptomatic and symptomatic groups infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta.”

3) Riemersma et al. found “no difference in viral loads when comparing unvaccinated individuals to those who have vaccine “breakthrough” infections. Furthermore, individuals with vaccine breakthrough infections frequently test positive with viral loads consistent with the ability to shed infectious viruses.” Results indicate that “if vaccinated individuals become infected with the delta variant, they may be sources of SARS-CoV-2 transmission to others.” They reported “low Ct values (<25) in 212 of 310 fully vaccinated (68%) and 246 of 389 (63%) unvaccinated individuals. Testing a subset of these low-Ct samples revealed infectious SARS-CoV-2 in 15 of 17 specimens (88%) from unvaccinated individuals and 37 of 39 (95%) from vaccinated people.”

4) In a study from Qatar, Chemaitelly et al. reported vaccine efficacy (Pfizer) against severe and fatal disease, with efficacy in the 85-95% range at least until 24 weeks after the second dose. As a contrast, the efficacy against infection waned down to around 30% at 15-19 weeks after the second dose.

5) From Wisconsin, Riemersma et al. reported that vaccinated individuals who get infected with the Delta variant can transmit SARS-CoV-2 to others. They found an elevated viral load in the unvaccinated and vaccinated symptomatic persons (68% and 69% respectively, 158/232 and 156/225). Moreover, in the asymptomatic persons, they uncovered elevated viral loads (29% and 82% respectively) in the unvaccinated and the vaccinated respectively. This suggests that the vaccinated can be infected, harbor, cultivate, and transmit the virus readily and unknowingly.

6) Subramanian reported that “at the country-level, there appears to be no discernable relationship between percentage of population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases.” When comparing 2947 counties in the United States, there were slightly less cases in more vaccinated locations. In other words, there is no clear discernable relationship .

7) Chau et al. looked at transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant among vaccinated healthcare workers in Vietnams. Of 69 healthcare workers that tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, 62 participated in the clinical study, all of whom recovered. For 23 of them, complete-genome sequences were obtained, and all belonged to the Delta variant. “Viral loads of breakthrough Delta variant infection cases were 251 times higher than those of cases infected with old strains detected between March-April 2020”.

8) In Barnstable, Massachusetts, Brown et al found that among 469 cases of COVID-19, 74% were fully vaccinated, and that “the vaccinated had on average more virus in their nose than the unvaccinated who were infected.”

9) Reporting on a nosocomial hospital outbreak in Finland, Hetemäli et al. observed that “both symptomatic and asymptomatic infections were found among vaccinated health care workers, and secondary transmission occurred from those with symptomatic infections despite use of personal protective equipment.”

10) In a hospital outbreak investigation in Israel, Shitrit et al. observed “high transmissibility of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant among twice vaccinated and masked individuals.” They added that “this suggests some waning of immunity, albeit still providing protection for individuals without comorbidities.”

11) In the UK COVID-19 vaccine Surveillance Report for week #42, it was noted that there is “waning of the N antibody response over time” and “that N antibody levels appear to be lower in individuals who acquire infection following 2 doses of vaccination.” The same report (Table 2, page 13), shows the in the older age groups above 30, the double vaccinated persons have greater infection risk than the unvaccinated, presumably because the latter group include more people with stronger natural immunity from prior Covid disease. As a contrast, the vaccinated people had a lower risk of death than the unvaccinated, across all age groups, indicating that vaccines provide more protection against death than against infection.

12) In Israel, Levin et al. “conducted a 6-month longitudinal prospective study involving vaccinated health care workers who were tested monthly for the presence of anti-spike IgG and neutralizing antibodies”. They found that “six months after receipt of the second dose of the BNT162b2 vaccine, humoral response was substantially decreased, especially among men, among persons 65 years of age or older, and among persons with immunosuppression.”

13) In a study from New York State, Rosenberg et al. reported that “During May 3–July 25, 2021, the overall age-adjusted vaccine effectiveness against hospitalization in New York was relatively stable 89.5%–95.1%). The overall age-adjusted vaccine effectiveness against infection for all New York adults declined from 91.8% to 75.0%.”

14) Suthar et al. noted that “Our data demonstrate a substantial waning of antibody responses and T cell immunity to SARS-CoV-2 and its variants, at 6 months following the second immunization with the BNT162b2 vaccine.”

15) In a study from Umeå University in Sweden, Nordström et al. observed that “vaccine effectiveness of BNT162b2 against infection waned progressively from 92% (95% CI, 92-93, P<0·001) at day 15-30 to 47% (95% CI, 39-55, P<0·001) at day 121-180, and from day 211 and onwards no effectiveness could be detected (23%; 95% CI, -2-41, P=0·07).”

16) Yahi et al. have reported that “in the case of the Delta variant, neutralizing antibodies have a decreased affinity for the spike protein, whereas facilitating antibodies display a strikingly increased affinity. Thus, antibody dependent enhancement may be a concern for people receiving vaccines based on the original Wuhan strain spike sequence.”

17) Goldberg et al. (BNT162b2 Vaccine in Israel) reported that “immunity against the delta variant of SARS-CoV-2 waned in all age groups a few months after receipt of the second dose of vaccine.”

18) Singanayagam et al. examined the transmission and viral load kinetics in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals with mild delta variant infection in the community. They found that (in 602 community contacts (identified via the UK contract-tracing system) of 471 UK COVID-19 index cases were recruited to the Assessment of Transmission and Contagiousness of COVID-19 in Contacts cohort study and contributed 8145 upper respiratory tract samples from daily sampling for up to 20 days) “vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts.”

19. Keehner et al. in NEJM, has recently reported on the resurgence of SARS-CoV-2 infection in a highly vaccinated health system workforce. Vaccination with mRNA vaccines began in mid-December 2020; by March, 76% of the workforce had been fully vaccinated, and by July, the percentage had risen to 87%. Infections had decreased dramatically by early February 2021…”coincident with the end of California’s mask mandate on June 15 and the rapid dominance of the B.1.617.2 (delta) variant that first emerged in mid-April and accounted for over 95% of UCSDH isolates by the end of July, infections increased rapidly, including cases among fully vaccinated persons…researchers reported that the “dramatic change in vaccine effectiveness from June to July is likely to be due to both the emergence of the delta variant and waning immunity over time.”

20. Juthani et al. sought to describe the impact of vaccination on admission to hospital in patients with confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection using real-world data collected by the Yale New Haven Health System. “Patients were considered fully vaccinated if the final dose (either second dose of BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273, or first dose of Ad.26.COV2.S) was administered at least 14 days before symptom onset or a positive PCR test for SARS-CoV-2. In total, we identified 969 patients who were admitted to a Yale New Haven Health System hospital with a confirmed positive PCR test for SARS-CoV-2”…Researchers reported “a higher number of patients with severe or critical illness in those who received the BNT162b2 vaccine than in those who received mRNA-1273 or Ad.26.COV2.S…”

21. A very recent study published by the CDC reported that a majority (53%) of patients who were hospitalized with Covid-19-like illnesses were already fully vaccinated with two-dose RNA shots. Table 1 reveals that among the 20,101 immunocompromised adults hospitalized with Covid-19, 10,564 (53%) were fully-vaccinated with the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine (Vaccination was defined as having received exactly 2 doses of an mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccine ≥14 days before the hospitalization index date, which was the date of respiratory specimen collection associated with the most recent positive or negative SARS-CoV-2 test result before the hospitalization or the hospitalization date if testing only occurred after the admission). This highlights the ongoing challenges faced with Delta breakthrough when vaccinated.
 
Orion Bailey said:
and what policy makers have made vaxxines mandatory?
But sure, twist things again instead of focusing on the point made… typical.
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Sigh. I acknowledged and agreed with the point you made.

barfo said:
But I agree with you. You (or I) don't have any right to order other people around.
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And then I made another, related point. Am I not allowed to do that?

barfo
 
Tyrant of Ants said:
I didn't raise them to be chumps.
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Lol. I guess you’re suggesting that’s what I’m doing. It’s funny how the people submitting to every one of the government or media’s whims just to get their lollipops back are the ones calling others chumps and Karens. The projection is real.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
I have politely and factually replied to you numerous times. Others have too. You have this pattern of coming in this thread, mocking people, and then claiming you're somehow a victim. It's very odd.

But if that's how you see yourself in this then cool.
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If you didn’t degrade anyone then you aren’t part of it. So why are you taking upon yourself to defend those who have? And what made you imagine this victim complex I supposedly have?
 
Orion Bailey said:
so whether you are vaxxed or not, you can now spread it the same?
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No. This is not the case. Since you are 80% less likely to catch it you are 5X less likely to spread it.

Also, since you have less severe symptons, for a shorter period of time the vaccinated aren't as likely to spread it even if they do catch it.
 
Phatguysrule said:
No. This is not the case. Since you are 80% less likely to catch it you are 5X less likely to spread it.
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CDC shifts pandemic goals away from reaching herd immunity

Since the earliest days of the pandemic, there has been one collective goal for bringing it to an end: achieving herd immunity. That's when so many people are immune to a virus that it runs out of potential hosts to infect, causing an outbreak to sputter out. Many Americans embraced the novel farmyard phrase, and with it, the projection that once 70% to 80% or 85% of the population was vaccinated against COVID-19, the virus would go away and the pandemic would be over.

Now the herd is restless. And experts at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have set aside herd immunity as a national goal. The prospects for meeting a clear herd-immunity target are "very complicated," said Dr. Jefferson Jones, a medical officer on the CDC’s COVID-19 Epidemiology Task Force.

“Thinking that we’ll be able to achieve some kind of threshold where there’ll be no more transmission of infections may not be possible,” Jones acknowledged last week to members of a panel that advises the CDC on vaccines.

Vaccines have been quite effective at preventing cases of COVID-19 that lead to severe illness and death, but none has proved reliable at blocking transmission of the virus, Jones noted. Recent evidence has also made clear that the immunity provided by vaccines can wane in a matter of months. The result is that even if vaccination were universal, the coronavirus would probably continue to spread.
 
barfo said:
Sigh. I acknowledged and agreed with the point you made.



And then I made another, related point. Am I not allowed to do that?

barfo
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if your post was genuine, then i apologize.

Ive come to pretty much assume there is an underlying theme based on history. when you agreed with me i figured it as passive aggressive…

Im not playing mockery games anymore, so if you are being standup, ill take your word for it.
 
Phatguysrule said:
No. This is not the case. Since you are 80% less likely to catch it you are 5X less likely to spread it.

Also, since you have less severe symptons, for a shorter period of time the vaccinated aren't as likely to spread it even if they do catch it.
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Lather, rinse, repeat. I feel like this question has been posed and answered in much the same way at least 20 times so far in here. The answer clearly isn't being viewed or understood if the question keeps on popping up.
 
RR7 said:
Lather, rinse, repeat. I feel like this question has been posed and answered in much the same way at least 20 times so far in here. The answer clearly isn't being viewed or understood if the question keeps on popping up.
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Certain people are just desperate to find an angle where they can feel that their anti-vaccine stance (or "both sides have good points" stance) is both justified and rational. Regardless of facts and rationality, they're going to stick with their stance--but they'd feel better if they can also have a reason or statistic with which to own those smug "libs" who seem determined to snatch the rationality high ground.
 
Two sides of the same coin: "I'm just asking questions" and "I'm not listening to answers".

barfo
 
HailBlazers said:
CDC shifts pandemic goals away from reaching herd immunity

Since the earliest days of the pandemic, there has been one collective goal for bringing it to an end: achieving herd immunity. That's when so many people are immune to a virus that it runs out of potential hosts to infect, causing an outbreak to sputter out. Many Americans embraced the novel farmyard phrase, and with it, the projection that once 70% to 80% or 85% of the population was vaccinated against COVID-19, the virus would go away and the pandemic would be over.

Now the herd is restless. And experts at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have set aside herd immunity as a national goal. The prospects for meeting a clear herd-immunity target are "very complicated," said Dr. Jefferson Jones, a medical officer on the CDC’s COVID-19 Epidemiology Task Force.

“Thinking that we’ll be able to achieve some kind of threshold where there’ll be no more transmission of infections may not be possible,” Jones acknowledged last week to members of a panel that advises the CDC on vaccines.

Vaccines have been quite effective at preventing cases of COVID-19 that lead to severe illness and death, but none has proved reliable at blocking transmission of the virus, Jones noted. Recent evidence has also made clear that the immunity provided by vaccines can wane in a matter of months. The result is that even if vaccination were universal, the coronavirus would probably continue to spread.
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Thanks for posting that. But it doesn't dispute the post you quoted.

It doesn't dispute that 85% of people would likely end the pandemic. Nobody ever claimed it would for sure stop all spread or be eradicated once we reached herd immunity.

It would simply cease being a pandemic. It would cease being an epidemic. We could go back to life as normal. Hospitals would no longer be overrun. Doctors and nurses would no longer need to be overworked due to COVID-19.
 
Phatguysrule said:
It doesn't dispute that 85% of people would likely end the pandemic. Nobody ever claimed it would for sure stop all spread or be eradicated once we reached herd immunity.

It would simply cease being a pandemic. It would cease being an epidemic. We could go back to life as normal. Hospitals would no longer be overrun. Doctors and nurses would no longer need to be overworked due to COVID-19.
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Ok your turn. Provide a source for your claim.
 
HailBlazers said:
Ok your turn. Provide a source for your claim.
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We need to have some humility here,” he added. “We really don’t know what the real number is. I think the real range is somewhere between 70 to 90 percent. But, I’m not going to say 90 percent.
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Also, Dr. Fauci noted, a herd-immunity figure at 90 percent or above is in the range of the infectiousness of measles.

“I’d bet my house that Covid isn’t as contagious as measles,” he said.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/24/health/herd-immunity-covid-coronavirus.html
 
barfo said:
No, actually not. Not even close.

Not that the virus cares about red and blue anyway.

barfo
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The NY Times are as blue or red as the establishment needs them to be, depending on the situation.
 
Natural immunity in action...

On June 25, Bill’s wife Maria rushed him to the ER after he became infected with coronavirus for the second time, explaining on Facebook:

When we arrived, Bill’s oxygen levels were at 52%. … The doctor then tried a BiPAP machine, but the nonstop coughing made it impossible for Bill’s oxygen numbers to stay within range. … he was either going to die on the table or we could try to intubate him. … he was put in a medically induced coma. He was sedated, then paralyzed, and then I stood in the corner as I watched the intubation happen within a minute.
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https://www.muscleandfitness.com/fe...hillips-protect-yourself-get-vaccinated-asap/
 
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