Dame all but demanding vet roster

[glazeduck]

Hell ya! Those wanting to trade Dame and start a rebuild, should I get you tissues for your issues?

This post might not age as well if Ant + 3 becomes Zach fucking Lavine next week.

It's fine and completely understandable to want to stick with Dame. He's stuck with us, obviously means a ton to the city and franchise, and that exceedingly rare loyalty should be lauded and, arguably, rewarded. He's our GOAT, without question at this point, so sure, enjoying the run and building from the ashes when he retires, regardless of the outcomes are certainly a valid approach as a fan. This is entertainment, after all.

But even the staunchest of Dame fans have to realize that continuing to build around him drastically limits our chances of reaching the pinnacle of success, right? Shouldn't it be okay to want different things or root for different priorities? Let's not act like those who are comfortable moving on from the Dame era are forcing him out with pitchforks and torches. I've yet to see ONE SINGLE post (that wasn't obvious trolling) that are truly "Anti-Dame", rather acknowledging that there's not enough to build with him to achieve their goals of a championship. That's a real, valid, and incredibly realistic perspective as well.

 

[glazeduck]

I think that our trading partners would be reduced unless those teams (that are looking for a PG) also value Amen

Unless more info comes out on the gun stuff between now and next Thursday, I don't see any possible scenarios where a team trades up to take Amen over Miller.

There are almost certainly teams who will want to move up for Miller, the industry has thus far considered him a virtual lock to Charlotte, so I don't think we've heard much about those teams, but we may start hearing more this next week.

I can tell you with a near 100% guarantee, Cronin has sketched out/discussed offers for Scoot and Miller.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Unless more info comes out on the gun stuff between now and next Thursday, I don't see any possible scenarios where a team trades up to take Amen over Miller.

There are almost certainly teams who will want to move up for Miller, the industry has thus far considered him a virtual lock to Charlotte, so I don't think we've heard much about those teams, but we may start hearing more this next week.

I can tell you with a near 100% guarantee, Cronin has sketched out/discussed offers for Scoot and Miller.

I am thinking about Toronto. They have more than enough forwards. I just can't see them trading us one so they can draft another.

 

[blazerkor]

So what Windhorst had to say should be encouraging if you trust Cronin is targeting the right players to round out this roster into something that will immediately be competitive. Windy said that "the moves are there to support Dame". If you don't trust Joe then we're fucked anyway. Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best.

I've said it a bunch of times but Joe seems like the kind of guy that has his ducks in a row... even if you don't like what those ducks are. So I expect he has deals lined up for if Scoot is there at three and deals lined up for if Miller is there. I don't know if Joe has this in him but if he's really good he'll have multiple deals for both prospects and he will make them bid against each other once we're on the clock netting some extra assets because he will have created added leverage in a limited window.

 

[B-Roy]

 

[glazeduck]

I am thinking about Toronto. They have more than enough forwards. I just can't see them trading us one so they can draft another.

Sure, not every team is going to line up to trade for Miller, no question. Doesn't mean there won't be teams with interest though -- there will be plenty. Whether those teams have what we'd want is another question entirely. Only takes 2 to tango, though, as they say.

 

[wizenheimer]

This post might not age as well if Ant + 3 becomes Zach fucking Lavine next week.

.

there appears to be an endless supply of 'Cronin is a fucking idiot' buttons and they've been passed around to S2 posters

maybe Cronin is that stupid. I mean after all, a year ago he was stupid enough to trade the 7th pick for Grant. And a few weeks ago he was stupid enough to trade #3 + Sharpe for Siakam

so sure, maybe one of these times he'll actually be stupid enough to do the stupid thing that would be obviously stupid to everybody but Cronin

But even the staunchest of Dame fans have to realize that continuing to build around him drastically limits our chances of reaching the pinnacle of success, right? .

where I disagree with that is that there is no "continuing to build around him" because Portland hasn't really tried to build around him before this. Drafting CJ and refusing to include him in trades for 9 years isn't building around Dame. Signing Aminu & Evan Turner & Crabbe & Ezeli isn't trying to build around him. Extending Meyers isn't building around Dame and neither is making max offers to Roy Hibbert, Greg Monroe, and Chandler Parsons. The 2017 draft wasn't building around Dame. Signing Melo & Stauskas & Tolliver and Hezonja wasn't building around him. Trading for Norm Powell, RoCo, and Nance weren't building around Dame

that was a decade of not building around Dame; a decade of 'I'm-Olshey-and-I'm-an-ego-blind-idiot' management malpractice that a lot of people here defended, time and again, and I know this because I argued with them about it all the time. And now, finally, when Portland actually might try one time, a first time, to actually build a real team around Dame it would be dumb to even try?

I also disagree with the "continuing to build around him drastically limits our chances of reaching the pinnacle of success, right?" part. What does that even mean? Pinnacle = championship, right?

seems like in this case "pinnacle' is a set of goalposts with ephemeral qualities. They aren't visible if Dame remains a Blazer. But if Dame is gone those goalposts magically appear on the horizon. Seems to be the opposite in the real world. If Dame is a Blazer the goalposts are visible; they might be faint and flickering and you have to squint a little and tilt your head to see them, but they are there. If Dame is gone those goalposts recede so far over the horizon you can't see the damn things at all, just the horizon

 

[blazerkor]

Sure, not every team is going to line up to trade for Miller, no question. Doesn't mean there won't be teams with interest though -- there will be plenty. Whether those teams have what we'd want is another question entirely. Only takes 2 to tango, though, as they say.

I agree with this and I think there would be more than two in this specific tango. I keep saying this but as much as I want it to work for Dame to get a Blazers team around him that can contend, Joe has to be willing to tell all of the teams bidding on the third pick that it's not enough and then be willing to take the BPA and have that rough conversation with Dame and move forward. I think this is especially true if the guy at three is Miller. If other teams try to leverage his legal situation or whatever the case may be, starting the season with Ant, Shaedon and Miller at the 1, 2 and 3 would be pretty fucking good, especially when you factor in what we could get for Dame and what we could get with pick 23.

I don't think it will come to that but it always has to be on the table in order to keep leverage on the teams trying to get that 3rd pick.

 

[RonBrewer]

This post might not age as well if Ant + 3 becomes Zach fucking Lavine next week.

. I've yet to see ONE SINGLE post (that wasn't obvious trolling) that are truly "Anti-Dame", rather acknowledging that there's not enough to build with him to achieve their goals of a championship. That's a real, valid, and incredibly realistic perspective as well.

They are more "Passive/Aggressive" and dressed up as "Innocent" in nature. It's the same, repetetive, beating a dead horse posts. If you state the same shit over and over you are hoping that muscle memory will pick up and folks will start to buy in.

Nobody knows what the Brass is going to do but there are enough reports out there from dialed in NBA guys that we aren't moving Dame.

 

[glazeduck]

there appears to be an endless supply of 'Cronin is a fucking idiot' buttons and they've been passed around to S2 posters

maybe Cronin is that stupid. I mean after all, a year ago he was stupid enough to trade the 7th pick for Grant. And a few weeks ago he was stupid enough to trade #3 + Sharpe for Siakam

so sure, maybe one of these times he'll actually be stupid enough to do the stupid thing that would be obviously stupid to everybody but Cronin



where I disagree with that is that there is no "continuing to build around him" because Portland hasn't really tried to build around him before this. Drafting CJ and refusing to include him in trades for 9 years isn't building around Dame. Signing Aminu & Evan Turner & Crabbe & Ezeli isn't trying to build around him. Extending Meyers isn't building around Dame and neither is making max offers to Roy Hibbert, Greg Monroe, and Chandler Parsons. The 2017 draft wasn't building around Dame. Signing Melo & Stauskas & Tolliver and Hezonja wasn't building around him. Trading for Norm Powell, RoCo, and Nance weren't building around Dame

that was a decade of not building around Dame; a decade of 'I'm-Olshey-and-I'm-an-ego-blind-idiot' management malpractice that a lot of people here defended, time and again, and I know this because I argued with them about it all the time. And now, finally, when Portland actually might try one time, a first time, to actually build a real team around Dame it would be dumb to even try?

I also disagree with the "continuing to build around him drastically limits our chances of reaching the pinnacle of success, right?" part. What does that even mean? Pinnacle = championship, right?

seems like in this case "pinnacle' is a set of goalposts with ephemeral qualities. They aren't visible if Dame remains a Blazer. But if Dame is gone those goalposts magically appear on the horizon. Seems to be the opposite in the real world. If Dame is a Blazer the goalposts are visible; they might be faint and flickering and you have to squint a little and tilt your head to see them, but they are there. If Dame is gone those goalposts recede so far over the horizon you can't see the damn things at all, just the horizon

I agree with literally all of this. I'm not pro- or anti- trading Dame, I see the situation as fluid and exceedingly dynamic. The point of my post was to hopefully quell a little bit of the "othering" going on in the debate -- this board gets toxic quickly and its just a generally less enjoyable place to engage. Pick a side, fine. Root for that outcome, great. But no need to cast false aspersions or belittle the other side when we're all rooting for approximately the same overall outcomes.

Continuing that Devil's advocate approach -- to your point, yes, trading Dame puts the goal of a championship farther away; but it also vastly opens up the timeframe in which it could become a reality. So sure, it will be a hike back uphill, but lessen the immediacy with which we'd need to get there.

All I'm advocating for is acknowledging that both sides have merits and flaws. There's no easy button to winning a championship, especially in a small market and working through the messed up situation we find ourselves in. It's okay to acknowledge that.

 

[glazeduck]

They are more "Passive/Aggressive" and dressed up as "Innocent" in nature. It's the same, repetetive, beating a dead horse posts. If you state the same shit over and over you are hoping that muscle memory will pick up and folks will start to buy in.

Nobody knows what the Brass is going to do but there are enough reports out there from dialed in NBA guys that we aren't moving Dame.

But why does that matter? Why do other opinions on something that none of us control matter to you or why should they be discounted or silenced? To your point, none of us have control over the outcomes -- this is a fan's message board -- the entire idea is to have conversations and debates about shit we can't influence.

I 100% agree with you that we're not trading Dame. That's not the same thing as having an opinion about what the right thing to do, is; nor should it discourage conversations around what that future might look like.

 

[RonBrewer]

But why does that matter? Why do other opinions on something that none of us control matter to you or why should they be discounted or silenced? To your point, none of us have control over the outcomes -- this is a fan's message board -- the entire idea is to have conversations and debates about shit we can't influence.

I 100% agree with you that we're not trading Dame. That's not the same thing as having an opinion about what the right thing to do, is; nor should it discourage conversations around what that future might look like.

Doesn't matter to me. I am here to get information when it's available. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. The only issue i ever have is folks thinking their opinion is greater than everyone else.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[glazeduck]

Doesn't matter to me. I am here to get information when it's available. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. The only issue i ever have is folks thinking their opinion is greater than everyone else.

Thanks for the feedback.

100% agree as well -- this board could certainly benefit from adding some poster restraint.

 

[wizenheimer]

Continuing that Devil's advocate approach -- to your point, yes, trading Dame puts the goal of a championship farther away; but it also vastly opens up the timeframe in which it could become a reality. .

again though...that's what I disagree with. Unless you have a generational roster like the Warriors have had for 7-8 years, the windows for success are shorter and more immediate. If we're talking about windows for Portland that start 7 or 8 years from now and extend to 11-12 years from now, keeping Dame for the current 3-4 year window won't matter at all. There are no magical opportunities that open up in the next 3-4 years after trading Dame. The only possible 'good' opportunities would be by trading away all of Dame, Ant, Nurkic, & Grant then the Blazers getting real shitty for a few years and getting luck with some high lottery picks.

But there you go....those high lottery picks would need 6-8 years of seasoning before they had a legit shot at a pinnacle.

 

[glazeduck]

again though...that's what I disagree with. Unless you have a generational roster like the Warriors have had for 7-8 years, the window for success are shorter and more immediate. If we're talking about windows for Portland that start 7 or 8 years from now and extend to 11-12 years from now, keeping Dame for the current 3-4 year window won't matter at all. There are no magical opportunities that open up in the next 3-4 years after trading Dame. The only possible 'good' opportunities would be by trading away all of Dame, Ant, Nurkic, & Grant then the Blazers getting real shitty for a few years and getting luck with some high lottery picks.

But there you go....those high lottery picks would need 6-8 years of seasoning before they had a legit shot at a pinnacle.

I'm just paraphrasing one side of the general argument, simply that no amount of realistically available pieces around Dame makes us a true championship contender. Ergo, we might as well trade Dame while he has some value and build around an exciting, young player in Sharpe and Miller/Scoot, elevate Ant's value in the process, etc. Maybe that gets us there, maybe not, but the theme from the "trade Dame" crowd just seems to be that we can't/won't win it with Dame. My personal, fandom opinion, would be to give it a shot, but I also see the logical foundation of the argument...

 

[tykendo]

again though...that's what I disagree with. Unless you have a generational roster like the Warriors have had for 7-8 years, the windows for success are shorter and more immediate. If we're talking about windows for Portland that start 7 or 8 years from now and extend to 11-12 years from now, keeping Dame for the current 3-4 year window won't matter at all. There are no magical opportunities that open up in the next 3-4 years after trading Dame. The only possible 'good' opportunities would be by trading away all of Dame, Ant, Nurkic, & Grant then the Blazers getting real shitty for a few years and getting luck with some high lottery picks.

But there you go....those high lottery picks would need 6-8 years of seasoning before they had a legit shot at a pinnacle.

Another thing that i can add to the discussion is, while going all young might extend the chance to compete , you can't really compare what Golden State did ( going all young to build their core), and what Portland is trying to do now .

One, because it's easier to keep a core together in the Bay Area, than it will be in Portland. That's just a fact. Everything in Portland , pro basketball wise , has to achieve more quicker , than say a big market, because sticking around in Portland isn't as high on a star's list.

The superstar that Dame has become , and the course he has chosen , is the outlier.

So even if you go all young, and they pan out, there is no guaranty those players would stick around to see it through. Big , bright lights, NBA hotspots have it easier as far as retention goes. More free agents accept less to go to those markets than Portland. Portland continually has to overpay to get said talent. Higher cost of living Los Angeles can get valuable players to come in at minimum deals easier than a city like Portland.

So while Golden State might be the template. Is it really the same for a city like Portland. I love this place with all my heart. It took moving away to appreciate it even more. My last 3 years in Denver, all i could think of was getting home. Now i'm home and i love it. But young pro athletes , with money , don't always buy in to our city. Dame has.

It makes more sense to try to get it done with Dame. Then if it doesn't happen, at least you don't have to wonder "what if". You gave your best shot.


I remember when Clyde won his championship in Houston. I wasn't elated at all. While i was happy for him, i was like meh. I wasn't pumping my hand like YES!. I was more disappointed that it wasn't Portland. Portland's management went in another direction too early IMO. They should have continued to add talent. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

 

[Ed O]

So what Windhorst had to say should be encouraging if you trust Cronin is targeting the right players to round out this roster into something that will immediately be competitive. Windy said that "the moves are there to support Dame". If you don't trust Joe then we're fucked anyway. Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best.

This just isn't the case.

Let's imagine in real life that we want to be rich. We have $1. Do we spend the $1 on a hot dog, or do we buy a lottery ticket? By buying a lottery ticket, we have a very, very small chance of becoming rich... but by buying a hot dog we have NO CHANCE of becoming rich.

That's where the Blazers are, as I see it. There is no path to winning a title with Dame, so we should not buy that hot dog to try to get rich. We should go down the path of a lottery ticket.

That has nothing to do with trust in Cronin or not. It has to do with the fact that our roster is too far away and giving up assets to make Dame happy is dumb assuming you want to contend for a title, rather than hope to have a team good enough not to shut dudes down with a month to go in NBA seasons.

 

[illmatic99]

This just isn't the case.

Let's imagine in real life that we want to be rich. We have $1. Do we spend the $1 on a hot dog, or do we buy a lottery ticket? By buying a lottery ticket, we have a very, very small chance of becoming rich... but by buying a hot dog we have NO CHANCE of becoming rich.

That's where the Blazers are, as I see it. There is no path to winning a title with Dame, so we should not buy that hot dog to try to get rich. We should go down the path of a lottery ticket.

That has nothing to do with trust in Cronin or not. It has to do with the fact that our roster is too far away and giving up assets to make Dame happy is dumb assuming you want to contend for a title, rather than hope to have a team good enough not to shut dudes down with a month to go in NBA seasons.

I don't see the analogy.

We're talking about trading the pick for an all star or borderline all nba player. Not a scrub.

Also, I'm vegetarian.

 

[Ed O]

They are more "Passive/Aggressive" and dressed up as "Innocent" in nature. It's the same, repetetive, beating a dead horse posts. If you state the same shit over and over you are hoping that muscle memory will pick up and folks will start to buy in.

Nobody knows what the Brass is going to do but there are enough reports out there from dialed in NBA guys that we aren't moving Dame.

Some of us before last year: "Our team isn't that good. We shouldn't trade future assets to try to be good now."
Others: "Cronin is going to make more moves. We'll be fine. Just wait."
Reality: Team was subpar , shut people down early, and were in the lottery.
Some of us before this year: "Our team isn't that good. We shouldn't trade future assets to try to be good now. Maybe we look to trade Dame and look to the future."
Others: "Cronin is going to make more moves We'll be fine. Just wait."
Reality: Team was subpar , shut people down early, and were in the lottery.
Some of us now: ""Our team isn't that good. We shouldn't trade future assets to try to be good now. Maybe we look to trade Dame and look to the future."
Others: "Cronin is going to make more moves We'll be fine. Just wait."
Reality: ??

It's not repetitive when there's new data, and I think that by any objective measure those of us who have doubted the team's ability to build around Dame the last couple of years have been proven correct, and yet some people keep clinging to things being different soon.

If anyone is stating the "same shit over and over" it is the people who keep thinking there's some magic bullet for the team to be competitive. Anyone who has bought in over the last couple of years are doing so because, you know, THE TEAM HAS BEEN BAD and accepting new information into one's formulation of an opinion is healthy and intelligent.

 

[Mediocre Man]

This just isn't the case.

Let's imagine in real life that we want to be rich. We have $1. Do we spend the $1 on a hot dog, or do we buy a lottery ticket? By buying a lottery ticket, we have a very, very small chance of becoming rich... but by buying a hot dog we have NO CHANCE of becoming rich.

That's where the Blazers are, as I see it. There is no path to winning a title with Dame, so we should not buy that hot dog to try to get rich. We should go down the path of a lottery ticket.

That has nothing to do with trust in Cronin or not. It has to do with the fact that our roster is too far away and giving up assets to make Dame happy is dumb assuming you want to contend for a title, rather than hope to have a team good enough not to shut dudes down with a month to go in NBA seasons.

Choke on the hot dog, sue the shit out of everyone (Murica) and live happily ever after. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX


In all seriousness, great points

 

[RonBrewer]

I don't see the analogy.

We're talking about trading the pick for an all star or borderline all nba player. Not a scrub.

Also, I'm vegetarian.

Me neither. While beautifully written, it's irrelevant. We aren't trading Dame.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Me neither. While beautifully written, it's irrelevant. We aren't trading Dame.

We should though.

 

[Ed O]

I don't see the analogy.

We're talking about trading the pick for an all star or borderline all nba player. Not a scrub.

Also, I'm vegetarian.

I can't tell if you're serious.

Siakam or Brown doesn't make us a contender. Unless making the playoffs is getting rich, it's buying a hot dog... I want to compete for titles, not for HCA.

(Also: hot dogs can be vegan.)

 

[Hoopguru]

This just isn't the case.

Let's imagine in real life that we want to be rich. We have $1. Do we spend the $1 on a hot dog, or do we buy a lottery ticket? By buying a lottery ticket, we have a very, very small chance of becoming rich... but by buying a hot dog we have NO CHANCE of becoming rich.

That's where the Blazers are, as I see it. There is no path to winning a title with Dame, so we should not buy that hot dog to try to get rich. We should go down the path of a lottery ticket.

That has nothing to do with trust in Cronin or not. It has to do with the fact that our roster is too far away and giving up assets to make Dame happy is dumb assuming you want to contend for a title, rather than hope to have a team good enough not to shut dudes down with a month to go in NBA seasons.

So, if we added solid players around Dame there is No Chance? By the end of summer Dame could have 6-8 new players of great skill level around him, and a few dogs that play D.
If they address front line length and strength, point of attack D and an improved deep bench, why couldn't they at possibly contend within a year or two?

 

[RonBrewer]

We should though.

You know nossing!

 

[RonBrewer]

So, if we solid players around Dame there is No Chance? By the end of summer Dame could have 6-8 new players of great skill level around him, and a few dogs that play D.
If they address front line length and strength, point of attack D and a improved deep bench, why couldn't they at possible contend with a year or two?

He has no idea. Nobody does. Either way, it might work out and it might not

 

[Ed O]

So, if we solid players around Dame there is No Chance? By the end of summer Dame could have 6-8 new players of great skill level around him, and a few dogs that play D.
If they address front line length and strength, point of attack D and a improved deep bench, why couldn't they at possible contend with a year or two?

It's not literally impossible, but somehow upgrading at 4 or 5 spots in a meaningful way AND staying healthy AND Dame staying healthy AND Chauncy knowing how to coach at a contending level... and whatever else needs to go into this team to turn it altogether around? It's impossible at a practical level.

Do you guys seriously not think that what has happened the last couple of years is an indication of what is probably going to happen if we keep doing the same things over and over?

 

[Natebishop3]

There is no path to winning a title with Dame,

For the most part I agree with you Ed, but I don't agree that there's no path to winning a title with Dame.

I'm just not convinced the Joe can make the moves necessary to do it, and I really don't think Jody is the owner to get it done.

I have posted some trade ideas that would thread the needle. I think this team would need to make not one, but two major upgrades to our starting lineup to be able to contend. Is that possible? Hard to say. I'm not sure what's out there. If we could add Bridges AND Siakam, while sending out Simons/Nurk/#3 and filler as well as some future picks, that would give us a significantly more talented starting lineup. It just depends on how much value the #3 pick has and what Brooklyn and Toronto are expecting to get back for those two players.

If we traded #3 to New Orleans for Zion, and he decided to get into shape and stay healthy, that would 100% put us on a path to a championship. Is that likely? Probably not, but it is a theoretical path.

 

[illmatic99]

I can't tell if you're serious.

Siakam or Brown doesn't make us a contender. Unless making the playoffs is getting rich, it's buying a hot dog... I want to compete for titles, not for HCA.

(Also: hot dogs can be vegan.)

I am. Multiple all nba players is thr framework for most contenders. Also, with Dame, we are not truly broke as your analogy suggests. It's Dame + and said player(s).

 

[HailBlazers]

In all seriousness, great points

And hot dogs are healthy