Dame and CJ long term - has your opinion changed?

[Natebishop3]

Stole this idea from Mook. He basically said that he didn't think that a Dame/CJ backcourt could work long term, but that his opinion has changed over the course of the season.

I'm still on the fence. I really like CJ, and I think he's a very good player. I think he could be an All-Star at some point. I'm still skeptical of this working long term. Zach Lowe brought up this subject, and said, "This is why some executives on other teams have kicked around the possibility of Portland eventually including McCollum in a megadeal for some disgruntled star -- a path Olshey isn't considering now."

I think if the right deal came along, I'd still move CJ, but it would have to be for a star. Someone like Paul George or Cousins.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Yes for me it has slightly. But that is because I see their defense improving on a weekly basis. Dame might have hit right at average now at this point of the season so I see him being at least slightly above average next year.

CJ is probably slightly under average at this point but he was almost horrendous at the beginning of the year and I think he is at worst average next year. And the year after? Sky is the limit for these guys.

With that said, yes there are some players I would trade CJ for. Cousins, Butler, George, Favors, etc. But those are probably pipe dreams and I am not settling for much (if any) less.

I always knew they were a great pair on Offense which some people thought wasn't true either because they are sort of similar in what they try to do.

 

[B-Roy]

I've always thought Dame and CJ was a long-term pairing. The game is evolving, guys like Dame and CJ are the future, and we have both. Conventional wisdom has to be taken with a grain of salt. If I told you a few years ago that a championship team would be starting 6'7 Draymond Green at center you would have laughed at me and slapped me across the face.

Would I trade him for Paul George? Sure, but that's because PG is a better player, not because I'm inherently against the idea of a small backcourt.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I've been amazed at how well they play together. Next year, I could legitimately see them averaging over 50 ppg combined. We've got enough size and length on the wings and on the bench to complement and cover them defensively, and they're just so hard to handle on the offensive end, that I can legitimately see them as a championship-caliber backcourt.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

No - I always saw them as our long term package.

EDIT: I see you have a different question in the poll than the thread. D'oh!

 

[Draco]

The NBA has changed where big physical guards are less beneficial. Teams really need more than one ball creator. Look at the Clippers with CP3; when he leaves the game the team has major issues. Even when he plays he gets worn out trying to create all the time. Last year when teams trapped us they could completely remove Dame out of plays. It very beneficial having CJ to pair with Dame. Our fast breaks are so much more effective. I cringed when Wes was leading a break. Now its easy to find Dame or CJ.

It gives us tons of front court flexibility not having to worry about shot creation or multi faceted offensive players. We can surround Dame and CJ with limited offense players who are elite defenders. Dame and CJ both contribute on defense; yes they're below average but its not as if they're Jose Calderon out there getting burned. They make plays. I expect CJ to improve more as this is his first season starting; he's actually much better than Lillard was initially on defense.

I've always thought they would be a great long term duo so yes I still believe that. Toot my own horn I was really right about this one. Please don't look at my Harrision "Fucking" Barnes thread where I thought we made a mistake at the Lillard draft though...

 

[Pinwheel1]

No my opinion has not changed because I thought it would work from the start, based on how the league was evolving.
As long as you have other guards on the team (i.e Crabbe.Henderson) who you can turn to in the rare occasion where you need to go bigger, then I just don't see why it won't work.

CJ may not be perfect to pair with Dame, but he is pretty damn close. His ball handling for a SG allows Dame to essentially shift from PG to SG and back to PG seamlessly. Sure it would be perfect if either (or both for that matter) were lock down defenders, but then you are talking about having two hall of fame type players, and that is not realistic.

This can be one of the best back courts in the league. They just need to make sure they have the right 3rd guard to cover every possible match up scenario.

 

[Draco]

Don't remember all these CJ supporters before... I had a heck of a time arguing that he would and should start over Hendo. You could see in the second half of last season and the playoffs he was legit and our second most valuable piece to this team.

In general fans focus way too much on positions though. Basketball is about having 5 players on the court. Positions were invented so layman can understand the game.

 

[e_blazer]

Don't remember all these CJ supporters before... I had a heck of a time arguing that he would and should start over Hendo. You could see in the second half of last season and the playoffs he was legit and our second most valuable piece to this team.

In general fans focus way too much on positions though. Basketball is about having 5 players on the court. Positions were invented so layman can understand the game.

I used to be in the camp where I thought CJ was a quality 6th man-type of player. I thought that Henderson or Crabbe would start and CJ would come off of the bench at both PG and SG. He's proved to be just too darned good for that type of role. It works when he and Lillard are on the court together and it works equally well when he slides to the PG spot and they bring a bigger 2G off the bench. That flexibility and talent are why I've become a believer in this backcourt as a long-term pairing.

 

[Natebishop3]

No - I always saw them as our long term package.

EDIT: I see you have a different question in the poll than the thread. D'oh!

The question in the thread title is to stimulate conversation, the question in the poll is to see exactly where people stand.

 

[Natebishop3]

I used to be in the camp where I thought CJ was a quality 6th man-type of player. I thought that Henderson or Crabbe would start and CJ would come off of the bench at both PG and SG. He's proved to be just too darned good for that type of role. It works when he and Lillard are on the court together and it works equally well when he slides to the PG spot and they bring a bigger 2G off the bench. That flexibility and talent are why I've become a believer in this backcourt as a long-term pairing.

The biggest development, in my opinion, is CJ's ability to play point guard. Sure, he's not as good as Dame, and there are some fans that would rather have Tim Frazier (shudders) because he can pass the ball, but I think CJ has shown enough proficiency that we haven't needed a backup point guard. That opens up a lot of minutes and has allowed Terry to find enough time for both Crabbe and Hendo.

I will also say that it's nice to have two guys that can create their own shot and can put the team on their back when we need points. Dame lit up the Knicks in the first half, and CJ lit them up in the second half.

 

[Draco]

Yeah I was one of the bigger CJ supporters but we still didn't know how he'd respond because he'd never been a consistent 25+ mpg player at the top of other teams scouting reports.

He has played great and exceeded the vast majority of expectations. I thought his PPG would be close to where they are but I didn't think he'd be this efficient right away. Really just thought he'd end up forcing shots on a bad offensive team; and get high scoring by default. But he's really a great player.

One thing I never understood is people thinking he couldn't play backup PG. He has had sick handles his whole career. Stotts offense moves the ball around all backcourt players. Then the same people thought he couldn't play starting SG. As if the only role he could ever have was 10mpg as a backup undersized SG.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Yes. We're seeing what a Lillard and Brandon Roy duo would be like.

 

[riverman]

Early on in the season I was on the fence about CJ...thought he was a tweener, defensively challenged, couldn't finish in the paint, make free throws, etc...when Dame sat out 7 games and we won most of them, I ate my CJ crow and saw he'd improved all the areas of concern....he's also stayed healthy which was a concern...he proved me wrong and I gladly ate that nasty crow...now I'm a big fan of keeping Dame and CJ together

 

[Natebishop3]

Yeah I was one of the bigger CJ supporters but we still didn't know how he'd respond because he'd never been a consistent 25+ mpg player at the top of other teams scouting reports.

He has played great and exceeded the vast majority of expectations. I thought his PPG would be close to where they are but I didn't think he'd be this efficient right away. He's really a great player.

One thing I never understood is people thinking he couldn't play backup PG. He has had sick handles his whole career. Stotts offense moves the ball around all backcourt players. Then the same people thought he couldn't play starting SG. As if the only role he could ever have was 10mpg as a backup undersized SG.

It's not so much about handles. I was skeptical of his ability to run the offense and distribute the ball. He hadn't done a very good job during his stints in summer league and he had really struggled when Stotts put him in at the point guard spot in garbage time. He still has issues with over dribbling and tunnel vision. Dame is definitely the superior player in that regard.

 

[B-Roy]

Sidenote, CJ is dazzlingly fun to watch. He is what Crawford would have been if Crawford had a brain.

 

[Draco]

One thing thats been very impressive with CJ is his balance. He is able to square up instantly and get quick shots from all areas of the court. He talked about doing bikram Yoga and I bet thats played a huge part. He is much stronger and fit than as a rookie.

 

[PDXFonz]

This poll is missing my voting option: No, I still think they can be legit.

 

[Draco]

It's not so much about handles. I was skeptical of his ability to run the offense and distribute the ball. He hadn't done a very good job during his stints in summer league and he had really struggled when Stotts put him in at the point guard spot in garbage time. He still has issues with over dribbling and tunnel vision. Dame is definitely the superior player in that regard.

Well yeah but Dame is in a tier with Steph, Wall and CP3.

CJ was just as good or better than Westbrook, Jason Terry, Kyrie Irving, Isiah Thomas, Mo Williams at setting up an offense. Its very overrated for a starting PG, let alone limited minute backup PG. Knight, Patty Mills, Collision, etc most the PG's in today's game aren't traditional pass first setup an offense players. Its about having 3 point shooting, pick and roll, shot creation from that position all of which CJ was good at.

The 80's and 90's were very different.

 

[BBert]

I've always thought Dame and CJ was a long-term pairing. The game is evolving, guys like Dame and CJ are the future, and we have both.

Would I trade him for Paul George? Sure, but that's because PG is a better player, not because I'm inherently against the idea of a small backcourt.

Copy...paste

 

[Pinwheel1]

One thing I never understood is people thinking he couldn't play backup PG. He has had sick handles his whole career. .

This is where I was dead wrong. I thought he was a SG all the way. He did not seem to handle the pressure of bringing the ball up court in the summer league and I thought he would struggle even more against better talent. From the film I saw of him in college he was usually the SG and it is rare for college SG's to slide to PG in the NBA .

To me the PG position is by far the toughest position to play in the NBA. You either have the skills early on or you never fully develop them . CJ certainly surprised me when Dame was out with his injury. He did a great job of leading the team.

Getting minutes as the back up PG has allowed CJ to play 35 minutes a game. I was thinking he would average around 28 mpg.

 

[Natebishop3]

Well yeah but Dame is in a tier with Steph, Wall and CP3.

CJ was just as good or better than Westbrook, Jason Terry, Kyrie Irving, Isiah Thomas, Mo Williams at setting up an offense. Its very overrated for a starting PG, let alone limited minute backup PG. Knight, Patty Mills, Collision, etc most the PG's in today's game aren't traditional pass first setup an offense players. Its about having 3 point shooting, pick and roll, shot creation from that position all of which CJ was good at.

The 80's and 90's were very different.

Westbrook is averaging over 10 assists per game. I'm not sure if I agree with you on that one.

I'm not talking about pass-first. The idea of a pass-first point guard is essentially dead. Dame isn't pass first either. I'm talking about making the right decision with the ball. Dame talked about this in his Q&A with ESPN.

"Scoop: You play attack-mode type of ball from the point-guard position. Do you see the shift in the game and style of team play affecting the way you play at all?

Lillard: Naw. Just because the way I play, I play the right way. You know, I'm not the kind of player that is going to dribble the air out of the ball, I'm not going to not make the right play to a guy that's open, I'm not going to notexecute our offense.

You know, if we get out in transition and it looks like somebody is backpedaling and I can get an advantage, I'm gonna attack them. If we come off of a pick-and-roll and one of their bigs is off-balance, I'm going to attack them. If I got a shot, I'm going to raise up and shoot it, but if the guy is up and I don't have a shot at the rim and I see our big diving, I'm gonna hit the big. If it's the fourth quarter and I only have 10 points and our big is open, I'ma hit our big. I'ma always make the right play, I'm always going to play the game unselfishly, but that's what I do. I come out there and I attack. I go after people. And that's the way it should be."

Pass-first, to me, would be a guy who is looking to always make the right pass. Shooting would be secondary in his mind. Dame definitely seems to be a scorer first, but he seems to always be reading the defense. He's like a zone-read QB out there. He can make the pass, and if it presents itself he will find the open man, but he's also looking for an opening so he can call his own number and take it to the house.

 

[e_blazer]

I wonder what Dame's assists stats would look like if he had as good of a shooter at the SF spot as Durant is.

 

[Natebishop3]

I wonder what Dame's assists stats would look like if he had as good of a shooter at the SF spot as Durant is.

Probably closer to 9 per game. Westbrook put up 8.6 assists last year, with Durant only playing 27 total games.

 

[Dan Marang]

Stole this idea from Mook. He basically said that he didn't think that a Dame/CJ backcourt could work long term, but that his opinion has changed over the course of the season.

I'm still on the fence. I really like CJ, and I think he's a very good player. I think he could be an All-Star at some point. I'm still skeptical of this working long term. Zach Lowe brought up this subject, and said, "This is why some executives on other teams have kicked around the possibility of Portland eventually including McCollum in a megadeal for some disgruntled star -- a path Olshey isn't considering now."

I think if the right deal came along, I'd still move CJ, but it would have to be for a star. Someone like Paul George or Cousins.

This is an idea we've kicked around at BlazersEdge, and something I brought up in the McCollum profile- unless the deal is for an "A" level star the return on the deal just isn't worth it. While CJ has definitely improved, there's still some things I would like to see from him on a more consistent basis- free throws, defense, finishing inside. Those are the same things I harped on before- and they're getting better. However, I don't see him as un-tradeable. Lillard has elevated himself to that status, and I fully believe he's there to stay.

CJ, while a phenomenal talent, I still don't think he ticks all the boxes of a superstar. Borderline all-star? Sure. Superstar? I don't think so. That's not in any way a knock against him, there are only so many superstars in this league, and who knows- maybe a 3rd star player finds their way to Portland in the off season and only minimal/expected growth is necessary for McCollum.

 

[Dan Marang]

Well yeah but Dame is in a tier with Steph, Wall and CP3.

CJ was just as good or better than Westbrook, Jason Terry, Kyrie Irving, Isiah Thomas, Mo Williams at setting up an offense. Its very overrated for a starting PG, let alone limited minute backup PG. Knight, Patty Mills, Collision, etc most the PG's in today's game aren't traditional pass first setup an offense players. Its about having 3 point shooting, pick and roll, shot creation from that position all of which CJ was good at.

The 80's and 90's were very different.

Westbrook and Kyrie are totally opposite sides of the spectrum. RWB has this thing that everyone sees him as a black hole- he's one of the best playmakers in the NBA and has been for the last few years- meanwhile the actual black hole, Kyrie is seen as this dynamic playmaker.

I'm not sure if it was good/bad PR on both their parts or what, but all the numbers point to RWB>>>>>>> Kyrie in the playmaking category... by miles.

As to your original point, CJ is better than Terry, Kyrie, and Mo at setting up an offense- probably ahead of IT, but I'd have to take a look at some of the underlying numbers. Yes, it's +++++ to having the SG also be a fantastic facilitator however that redundancy could also be an issue if either is injured. (Which is why I loved the Roberts insurance pick up) But that's neither here nor there, bottom line- CJ is a better facilitator than a lot of "PGs" in the NBA- probably the best playmaking 2 as things currently sit (debate between him and Harden- but Harden has the ball soon much more, and the turnovers), but putting him on the same level as Westbrook just isn't right.

 

[Draco]

Westbrook is averaging over 10 assists per game. I'm not sure if I agree with you on that one.

I'm not talking about pass-first. The idea of a pass-first point guard is essentially dead. Dame isn't pass first either. I'm talking about making the right decision with the ball. Dame talked about this in his Q&A with ESPN.

"Scoop: You play attack-mode type of ball from the point-guard position. Do you see the shift in the game and style of team play affecting the way you play at all?

Lillard: Naw. Just because the way I play, I play the right way. You know, I'm not the kind of player that is going to dribble the air out of the ball, I'm not going to not make the right play to a guy that's open, I'm not going to notexecute our offense.

You know, if we get out in transition and it looks like somebody is backpedaling and I can get an advantage, I'm gonna attack them. If we come off of a pick-and-roll and one of their bigs is off-balance, I'm going to attack them. If I got a shot, I'm going to raise up and shoot it, but if the guy is up and I don't have a shot at the rim and I see our big diving, I'm gonna hit the big. If it's the fourth quarter and I only have 10 points and our big is open, I'ma hit our big. I'ma always make the right play, I'm always going to play the game unselfishly, but that's what I do. I come out there and I attack. I go after people. And that's the way it should be."

Pass-first, to me, would be a guy who is looking to always make the right pass. Shooting would be secondary in his mind. Dame definitely seems to be a scorer first, but he seems to always be reading the defense. He's like a zone-read QB out there. He can make the pass, and if it presents itself he will find the open man, but he's also looking for an opening so he can call his own number and take it to the house.

CJ doesn't make the right decision with the ball near as often as Dame. Dame is truly great at it. One great thing about Dame is he knows when to pass early in the clock and not dribble at all. Basically the anti-Damon Stoudamire.

Players aren't going to be great at everything its always a balance of positives and negatives. CJ is superior to Dame in a number of areas; his floaters, handles, crafty plays, accuracy, turnovers, finishing at the rim. Westbrook averages tons of assists partly because he dominates the ball and holds it until the last second when only he can score or get an assist. Westbrook makes tons of poor decisions with the ball. CJ from day 1 was similar to Kyrie and many legit PG's in the NBA that create their own shot but don't quarterback an offense.

 

[Draco]

Westbrook and Kyrie are totally opposite sides of the spectrum. RWB has this thing that everyone sees him as a black hole- he's one of the best playmakers in the NBA and has been for the last few years- meanwhile the actual black hole, Kyrie is seen as this dynamic playmaker.

I'm not sure if it was good/bad PR on both their parts or what, but all the numbers point to RWB>>>>>>> Kyrie in the playmaking category... by miles.

As to your original point, CJ is better than Terry, Kyrie, and Mo at setting up an offense- probably ahead of IT, but I'd have to take a look at some of the underlying numbers. Yes, it's +++++ to having the SG also be a fantastic facilitator however that redundancy could also be an issue if either is injured. (Which is why I loved the Roberts insurance pick up) But that's neither here nor there, bottom line- CJ is a better facilitator than a lot of "PGs" in the NBA- probably the best playmaking 2 as things currently sit (debate between him and Harden- but Harden has the ball soon much more, and the turnovers), but putting him on the same level as Westbrook just isn't right.

Good points. My views on Westbrook are controversial. I still think Westbrook is a top15 player and far above CJ. His physicality and ability to get to the rim is second to none. I just thought from a pure 'setup an offense' perspective they have similar shortcommings.

But yeah if you ignore Westbrook from my argument thats the point I was trying to make. Thanks.

 

[Natebishop3]

CJ doesn't make the right decision with the ball near as often as Dame. Dame is truly great at it. One great thing about Dame is he knows when to pass early in the clock and not dribble at all. Basically the anti-Damon Stoudamire.

Players aren't going to be great at everything its always a balance of positives and negatives. CJ is superior to Dame in a number of areas; his floaters, handles, crafty plays, accuracy, turnovers, finishing at the rim. Westbrook averages tons of assists partly because he dominates the ball and holds it until the last second when only he can score or get an assist. Westbrook makes tons of poor decisions with the ball. CJ from day 1 was similar to Kyrie and many legit PG's in the NBA that create their own shot but don't quarterback an offense.

Well, I've posted before that I think he could be the starting point guard on another team and put up All-Star numbers. He gave us a taste of that when Dame was out. But my point was that he hadn't shown much of that ability before this season. I was skeptical of him playing any minutes at point guard. All of those strengths that you listed: floaters, handles, crafty plays, accuracy, turnovers, finishing at the rim; those all make him a great scorer, but not necessarily a point guard. He has shown a much better ability to find the open man this season, and run the offense.

 

[B-Roy]

Funny, finishing at the rim is the past thing I put CJ above Lillard at.