Dame on Brandon Roy

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BoomChakaLaka said:
Tomorrow. Does Dame’s number get retired? Hasn’t won anything…never an MVP…only reason we wasted a bench spot (Blevins) for three years…reason Stotts is gone (ok, that was just for shits and giggles) but you get my point.

Roy?
Dame?
Aldridge?
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Lol questioning if dame gets his number retired. I definitely needed that laugh.
 
riverman said:
Will Perdue and Steve Kerr used to joke that they both had more rings than Jordan and Pippen...they won with the Bulls and the Spurs as teammates
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I don't think you're remembering that right... Perdue won 3 with the Bulls and 1 with the Spurs. Kerr won 3 with the Bulls and 2 with the Spurs. Jordan and Pippen won 6. And since the Spurs titles came later, at no point did Perdue/Kerr have more rings than Jordan/Pippen.
 
handiman said:
I don't think you're remembering that right... Perdue won 3 with the Bulls and 1 with the Spurs. Kerr won 3 with the Bulls and 2 with the Spurs. Jordan and Pippen won 6. And since the Spurs titles came later, at no point did Perdue/Kerr have more rings than Jordan/Pippen.
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Doesn't Phil Jackson have like 11 rings or something?
 
THE HCP said:
Championships is no way to measure a players greatness, I'm sorry. Will Perdue on Line 1.....Karl Malone and Barkley on Line 2 and 3
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I’m only using the earlier poster’s reasoning as to why Roy ‘s number should not be retired. He listed off: no MVP, no rings, etc.

Begs the question: what criteria should be used in determining the retiring of a player’s number versus some other form of recognition, ie: Ring of Honor, etc.
 
BoomChakaLaka said:
I’m only using the earlier poster’s reasoning as to why Roy ‘s number should not be retired. He listed off: no MVP, no rings, etc.

Begs the question: what criteria should be used in determining the retiring of a player’s number versus some other form of recognition, ie: Ring of Honor, etc.
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Retiring a players jersey should be reserved for franchise altering players.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Retiring a players jersey should be reserved for franchise altering players.
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For me, it's really determining if we think that no other player should ever wear that number again. I can't see any other player ever wearing the #0 again for this team. I can't see anyone else wearing 22 or 32 but that's kinda it for me. Maybe #20 for Lucas.

We have a lot of guys that we loved and we are nostalgic for, but should their number never be worn again? I don't think so.

Roy is borderline. I don't think LMA should have his number retired. To me, even though CJ never mad an All-Star team, I think he and LMA are basically on the same level of importance to the team. Same with Sheed. Same with ZBO. They're good players who played really well in a Blazers uniform, but they're not the kind of player that you retire their number.
 
Natebishop3 said:
For me, it's really determining if we think that no other player should ever wear that number again. I can't see any other player ever wearing the #0 again for this team. I can't see anyone else wearing 22 or 32 but that's kinda it for me. Maybe #20 for Lucas.

We have a lot of guys that we loved and we are nostalgic for, but should their number never be worn again? I don't think so.

Roy is borderline. I don't think LMA should have his number retired. To me, even though CJ never mad an All-Star team, I think he and LMA are basically on the same level of importance to the team. Same with Sheed. Same with ZBO. They're good players who played really well in a Blazers uniform, but they're not the kind of player that you retire their number.
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Agreed.
 
andalusian said:
I think UW retired his knees. We just got him as a post-retirement temporary helper. Kind of like Sabas. Would have been awesome to see either one of these in full health in the NBA.
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The young Sabonis was a dynamic force. He could go basket to basket, and finish with the slam. That Blazers team of the early '90's get 2 championships with the young Sabonis, IMO. His knees were toast, and his body too big by the time he got to our team.
 
BoomChakaLaka said:
ok! Sounds good but can you elaborate?

Lloyd Neal? Helped the franchise win its only championship, coming off the bench.

like this?
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No, they would have won that without him. I'm ok with the starters getting #s retired.

Aside from them, Petrie, Drexler, and Dame.
 
Can someone explain why Neal, Twardzik and Steele have their numbers retired? I wasn’t alive when they won the title, but just by looking at their numbers, we should be retiring Travis Outlaw’s number.
 
andalusian said:
I think UW retired his knees. We just got him as a post-retirement temporary helper. Kind of like Sabas. Would have been awesome to see either one of these in full health in the NBA.
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Imagine them together, healthy and in their prime!
 
The Blazers won the title in the first season they ever made the playoffs. I believe it was the 7th season in the league. They had no history, until then. Neal was a later round pick that still holds Blazers single season rebound record filling in for an injured Walton. Steele was an early Blazer as well. Led the league in steals one season. They are retired because the owner loved them. Twardzik, Gross and Hollins as a tip of the cap for the championship. Lucas and Walton are no brainers. Yes, it was a mistake to retire numbers of fringe players, but they were trying to create a legacy.
 
Roy is one of my all-time favorite players and I absolutely do not think he should have his jersey retired due to a lot of the reasons already mentioned in this thread and also because I think that sort of thing needs to be reserved for a very select few players who are truly transcendent, and when it isn't it cheapens what it means to have your jersey retired.

Roy was on his way there but sadly he only scored about 6,000 points in a Blazers uniform and never won a playoff series. What would we be retiring it for exactly? Two fun seasons and some game winners?
 
BIG Q said:
The Blazers won the title in the first season they ever made the playoffs. I believe it was the 7th season in the league. They had no history, until then. Neal was a later round pick that still holds Blazers single season rebound record filling in for an injured Walton. Steele was an early Blazer as well. Led the league in steals one season. They are retired because the owner loved them. Twardzik, Gross and Hollins as a tip of the cap for the championship. Lucas and Walton are no brainers. Yes, it was a mistake to retire numbers of fringe players, but they were trying to create a legacy.
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I know that as an old timer I'll get some eye rolls for trotting out what is ancient history for most on this site but.......Lloyd Neal is without a doubt one of the most (if not THE most) under appreciated Blazers of all time. You would have had to watch him over the course of his career to "get" it. He was 6'7" at most, but if you tracked his advanced stats (that didn't exist when he played) he would have been at the top (or over) on most charts. His rebounding alone for his size was truly impressive. And no matter what, the guy kept his head down, his mouth shut and his butt in high gear. The year following the championship the Blazers were the hottest team in the league and almost a lock for another championship. When Walton went down, Portland (literally) hardly missed a beat because Neal stepped in and over the course of the next 4-5 games averaged twenty plus points AND rebounds per game. And we kept winning. Then HIS knees went and THAT is when their wheels actually fell off of that team. I still believe we would have won a ring that year if Neal had stayed healthy, Walton be damned. Which also underlines how much Twardzik, Steele, Hollins, et al meant to team. It's only if we win another championship that people will truly understand how important the role players are compared to the "stars".......and then they'll understand the reverence with which we hold them.....and why.
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
I know that as an old timer I'll get some eye rolls for trotting out what is ancient history for most on this site but.......Lloyd Neal is without a doubt one of the most (if not THE most) under appreciated Blazers of all time. You would have had to watch him over the course of his career to "get" it. He was 6'7" at most, but if you tracked his advanced stats (that didn't exist when he played) he would have been at the top (or over) on most charts. His rebounding alone for his size was truly impressive. And no matter what, the guy kept his head down, his mouth shut and his butt in high gear. The year following the championship the Blazers were the hottest team in the league and almost a lock for another championship. When Walton went down, Portland (literally) hardly missed a beat because Neal stepped in and over the course of the next 4-5 games averaged twenty plus points AND rebounds per game. And we kept winning. Then HIS knees went and THAT is when their wheels actually fell off of that team. I still believe we would have won a ring that year if Neal had stayed healthy, Walton be damned. Which also underlines how much Twardzik, Steele, Hollins, et al meant to team. It's only if we win another championship that people will truly understand how important the role players are compared to the "stars".......and then they'll understand the reverence with which we hold them.....and why.
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Neal was awesome in his role. Johnny Davis was amazing as well. Twardzik was good. He wasn't Johnny D.
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
I know that as an old timer I'll get some eye rolls for trotting out what is ancient history for most on this site but.......Lloyd Neal is without a doubt one of the most (if not THE most) under appreciated Blazers of all time. You would have had to watch him over the course of his career to "get" it. He was 6'7" at most, but if you tracked his advanced stats (that didn't exist when he played) he would have been at the top (or over) on most charts. His rebounding alone for his size was truly impressive. And no matter what, the guy kept his head down, his mouth shut and his butt in high gear. The year following the championship the Blazers were the hottest team in the league and almost a lock for another championship. When Walton went down, Portland (literally) hardly missed a beat because Neal stepped in and over the course of the next 4-5 games averaged twenty plus points AND rebounds per game. And we kept winning. Then HIS knees went and THAT is when their wheels actually fell off of that team. I still believe we would have won a ring that year if Neal had stayed healthy, Walton be damned. Which also underlines how much Twardzik, Steele, Hollins, et al meant to team. It's only if we win another championship that people will truly understand how important the role players are compared to the "stars".......and then they'll understand the reverence with which we hold them.....and why.
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Walton's last game was 2/28 that season. Neal played one more game after Walton went down, where he scored 3 points got 1 rebound and they lost by 11 to the Knicks. Then he too was done for the season. Seems the reverence in which we hold role players sometimes makes us forget what they actually achieved on the court?

Advanced stats exist for old guys. It's the beauty of stats. They might not have been tracked at the time, but you can always go back and figure them out. Lloyd Neals PER for his career was 15.4. 15 is essentially league average. His TRB% for his career was 15.5. His WS/48 was under .1 for his career. He had negative OBPM. DBPM, and BPM for his career. His advanced stats weren't at the top of any chart. He was basically league average. There is no way in hell he should have his number retired. It's essentially like if we won a title in 08-09, and decided we should retire Joel Przybilla's number.
 
RR7 said:
Walton's last game was 2/28 that season. Neal played one more game after Walton went down, where he scored 3 points got 1 rebound and they lost by 11 to the Knicks. Then he too was done for the season. Seems the reverence in which we hold role players sometimes makes us forget what they actually achieved on the court?

Advanced stats exist for old guys. It's the beauty of stats. They might not have been tracked at the time, but you can always go back and figure them out. Lloyd Neals PER for his career was 15.4. 15 is essentially league average. His TRB% for his career was 15.5. His WS/48 was under .1 for his career. He had negative OBPM. DBPM, and BPM for his career. His advanced stats weren't at the top of any chart. He was basically league average. There is no way in hell he should have his number retired. It's essentially like if we won a title in 08-09, and decided we should retire Joel Przybilla's number.
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Are you suggesting that Przybilla doesn't deserve to have his name in the rafters?! HOW DARE YOU SIR!
 
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Looking at our franchise history, it seems Roy belongs on the same level as Sidney Wicks. 5 years with the franchise, ROY, a few all-star games, and the team didn't accomplish anything during his tenure. Absent the awards/honors, the same could be said about Kiki's tenure, which like Roy's was marked by a lot of scoring, no playoff series wins, and was surpassed by a longer-tenured, future HOF teammate when his time in Portland ended prematurely due to significant injury.

Wicks, Kiki, Roy--all important to the franchise history, but none belong in the rafters.
 
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RR7 said:
Walton's last game was 2/28 that season. Neal played one more game after Walton went down, where he scored 3 points got 1 rebound and they lost by 11 to the Knicks. Then he too was done for the season. Seems the reverence in which we hold role players sometimes makes us forget what they actually achieved on the court?

Advanced stats exist for old guys. It's the beauty of stats. They might not have been tracked at the time, but you can always go back and figure them out. Lloyd Neals PER for his career was 15.4. 15 is essentially league average. His TRB% for his career was 15.5. His WS/48 was under .1 for his career. He had negative OBPM. DBPM, and BPM for his career. His advanced stats weren't at the top of any chart. He was basically league average. There is no way in hell he should have his number retired. It's essentially like if we won a title in 08-09, and decided we should retire Joel Przybilla's number.
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And you've just underlined how I have always felt about advanced stats. They're just numbers (and way overblown IMHO). They don't come anywhere near telling the complete story. And they don't account in any way, shape or form for the intangibles that can separate players with identical stats. Nor do they factor in quality of/chemistry with their teammates. And I remember Neal playing at least 4 games after Walton was injured just as I detailed (before Neal himself became injured). Details get fuzzy after 44 years....and a brief internet search produced nothing definitive. The loss of Walton hurt us, but losing Neal was the coffin lid being nailed down (we had to bring ancient Dale Schlueter out of retirement just to get a back up center). But I haven't forgotten what Neal achieved on the court, both stat and heart wise. Time does not change that. I hope I'm still alive if/when Portland wins another championship, just so I can the observe the massive change in perspective the majority of (younger) SC2 members will have when they look at the players who helped make it happen. Trust me, you will never again look at them the same way.
 
UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
And you've just underlined how I have always felt about advanced stats. They're just numbers (and way overblown IMHO). They don't come anywhere near telling the complete story. And they don't account in any way, shape or form for the intangibles that can separate players with identical stats. Nor do they factor in quality of/chemistry with their teammates. And I remember Neal playing at least 4 games after Walton was injured just as I detailed (before Neal himself became injured). Details get fuzzy after 44 years....and a brief internet search produced nothing definitive. The loss of Walton hurt us, but losing Neal was the coffin lid being nailed down (we had to bring ancient Dale Schlueter out of retirement just to get a back up center). But I haven't forgotten what Neal achieved on the court, both stat and heart wise. Time does not change that. I hope I'm still alive if/when Portland wins another championship, just so I can the observe the massive change in perspective the majority of (younger) SC2 members will have when they look at the players who helped make it happen. Trust me, you will never again look at them the same way.
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I'm not trying to take anything away from role players. I understand their value. They just aren't guys that should have their numbers retired.
It's funny that YOU mentioned advanced stats, and how they would surely reflect him being at the top, but when shown that there are advanced stats for him, they're basically rubbish? Ok. You may remember him playing games after Walton went down, but they absolutely did not happen that way, as I stated. He played 1 game and he sucked. I don't know what you mean by nothing definitive. There are game logs for the season. That's as definitive as it gets.
 
Fact is, no matter his heart, no matter his hustle and whatever, he was a bench player on the title team and the season following. He was 10th! in minutes per game. Our 10th man! for the title team. The following year was under 20 mpg as well. Those aren't players who you retire their number. Our most recent WCF team, that was basically Jake Layman. Hang it up in the rafters!!
Like I said, it's basically retiring Joel Przybilla's number if we won a title that year. He had tons of heart and hustle and chemistry and yadda yadda. I'm not going to downplay what he brought to our team. It's not the sort of player who you honor with that sort of distinction, however.
His number was retired almost entirely because we won our only title while he was on the team. He played less than 11 mpg in the playoffs that year. Pivotal! I wonder if the Milwaukee Bucks will retire Pat Connaughton's jersey when his career is over.
 
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RR7 said:
Walton's last game was 2/28 that season. Neal played one more game after Walton went down, where he scored 3 points got 1 rebound and they lost by 11 to the Knicks. Then he too was done for the season. Seems the reverence in which we hold role players sometimes makes us forget what they actually achieved on the court?

Advanced stats exist for old guys. It's the beauty of stats. They might not have been tracked at the time, but you can always go back and figure them out. Lloyd Neals PER for his career was 15.4. 15 is essentially league average. His TRB% for his career was 15.5. His WS/48 was under .1 for his career. He had negative OBPM. DBPM, and BPM for his career. His advanced stats weren't at the top of any chart. He was basically league average. There is no way in hell he should have his number retired. It's essentially like if we won a title in 08-09, and decided we should retire Joel Przybilla's number.
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Sometimes we let our heart do the talking. And sometimes stats don't tell the whole story. But bottom line is, there are way to many numbers retired to guys , who didn't deserve that honor. I see Walton, Drexler, and i'm cool with 77 for Ramsay. A Ring Of Honor, suggested earlier would be a great way to solve this. Because , to me, Porter, Williams, Kersey & Jim Paxson should be in a Blazers Ring Of Fame. Roy & LaMarcus (when he retires).
 
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