Damian Lillard = Stephon Marbury?

[BonesJones]

Hmmm, I just ran a comp because I didn't agree with this assessment, and based on a quick look at the numbers I still don't agree with it. I shaved off the last few years of Drex/Star/Franchise's years to compare early/prime years to Dame. Aside from raw PPG, Dame is much more like Marbury/Francis. Clyde shot a much higher percentage than the other three. He was obviously a better rebounder, but also nearly equal in assists to Dame. Basically, Clyde was a much better player, and it's not really close.


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I definitely disagree that it's not close. Clyde shot 3% better inside the arc than Dame. Dame shoots 8% better from 3pt than Clyde.

Dame's FG% is so much lower because he shoots more 3s, but if you look at TS%, Dame is better. Dame likely has a better effect on his teammates when he's off the ball, as he is a better shooter than Clyde was.

 

[BonesJones]

There's not a huge difference between the numbers I posted and numbers ran for all players through their 5th season - the picture remains essentially unchanged. Francis rebounds more, Marbury assists more, and Dame shoots WAY more 3-pointers. Otherwise, statistically speaking, Dame, Francis, and Marbury are quite similar across the board and Clyde is on another level.

They're not. FG% can be misleading. Lol at Dames 2P% and 3P% compared to Francis, than look at their FG%. Thus its why TS% is such a nice stat.

Lillard is a more efficient and better scorer than Francis was, gets more assists, and less turnovers. Francis has the edge in rebounding... That's about it.

 

[blue9]

I definitely disagree that it's not close. Clyde shot 3% better inside the arc than Dame. Dame shoots 8% better from 3pt than Clyde.

Dame's FG% is so much lower because he shoots more 3s, but if you look at TS%, Dame is better. Dame likely has a better effect on his teammates when he's off the ball, as he is a better shooter than Clyde was.

A made shot is better than a missed shot, and Clyde made a higher percentage of his shots. Dame's shot selection is pretty disappointing - seven 3FGA is kinda ridiculous. And Clyde was similar or superior in nearly all other statistical categories.

 

[Rhal]

There's not a huge difference between the numbers I posted and numbers ran for all players through their 5th season - the picture remains essentially unchanged. Francis rebounds more, Marbury assists more, and Dame shoots WAY more 3-pointers. Otherwise, statistically speaking, Dame, Francis, and Marbury are quite similar across the board and Clyde is on another level.

I just looked at the stats through their first 6 seasons. Dame is the best offensive player of all 4 of those players. Sure Dame doesn't rebound as well as Francis nor picks up as many assists as Marbury but he kills them both in % from 3 and 2 and %eFG as well as avg less turnovers. Clyde beats Dame on offensively in rebounds and steals as well as his 2% which is by a huge amount but no near the difference between % from 3 that dame beats Drexler by, which to be far is more about era then anything. Lillard is special offensively and it gets dismissed so much on this forum.

 

[blue9]

They're not. FG% can be misleading. Lol at Dames 2P% and 3P% compared to Francis, than look at their FG%. Thus its why TS% is such a nice stat.

Lillard is a more efficient and better scorer than Francis was, gets more assists, and less turnovers. Francis has the edge in rebounding... That's about it.

And Marbury has the edge in assists. I already said this. They are similar. Not the same, but similar. Dame's over-reliance on 3-point shots is not necessarily a good thing. It makes his EFG% better, but all those misses lead to a lot of long rebounds. I'd prefer Dame increase his APG at the cost of a few of those 3PA.

 

[Rhal]

A made shot is better than a missed shot, and Clyde made a higher percentage of his shots. Dame's shot selection is pretty disappointing - seven 3FGA is kinda ridiculous. And Clyde was similar or superior in nearly all other statistical categories.

A made 3 is much better then a made 2. By the logic highlighted then Shaq is the best shooter ever since he has the highest number of seasons leading the NBA in fg %.

 

[BonesJones]

A made shot is better than a missed shot, and Clyde made a higher percentage of his shots. Dame's shot selection is pretty disappointing - seven 3FGA is kinda ridiculous. And Clyde was similar or superior in nearly all other statistical categories.

And a made 3 is better than a made 2, and Dame makes a much higher percentage of those. TS% essentially captures how beneficial a specific player's shooting is, and it says Dame has a higher TS%. It's probably the least flawed "Advanced Stat". So your logic is falty when you're arguing against a stat that better encapsulates the logic you're trying to use.

36.7% from 3pt is equivalent to a 110 offensive rating, which is solid. So shooting 7 isn't a problem, as his decently efficient, high volume 3pt shooting opens up the rest of the floor for his teammates, so his 3pt shooting is likely >110 ORTG.

 

[BonesJones]

A made 3 is much better then a made 2. By the logic highlighted then Shaq is the best shooter ever since he has the highest number of seasons leading the NBA in fg %.

DeAndre Jordan the past few years as well lol.

 

[noknobs]

How is Damian Lillard any better than Stephon Marbury? ... Not their personality yadda yadda, just look at the product on the court.

How is oil different than water? Not their odor, taste, uses, molecular composition yadda yadda, just look at how they're both liquids at room temperature.

 

[blue9]

And a made 3 is better than a made 2, and Dame makes a much higher percentage of those. TS% essentially captures how beneficial a specific player's shooting is, and it says Dame has a higher TS%. It's probably the least flawed "Advanced Stat". So your logic is falty when you're arguing against a stat that better encapsulates the logic you're trying to use.

36.7% from 3pt is equivalent to a 110 offensive rating, which is solid. So shooting 7 isn't a problem, as his decently efficient, high volume 3pt shooting opens up the rest of the floor for his teammates, so his 3pt shooting is likely >110 ORTG.

Okay, go ahead and continue to limit the discussion to a single stat, rather than the entire picture. If you can't see that they're similar*, and Clyde is superior, then, well, we're done.

*Again, I feel like you don't get that similar =/= same.

 

[BonesJones]

And Marbury has the edge in assists. I already said this. They are similar. Not the same, but similar. Dame's over-reliance on 3-point shots is not necessarily a good thing. It makes his EFG% better, but all those misses lead to a lot of long rebounds. I'd prefer Dame increase his APG at the cost of a few of those 3PA.

Dame's 3pt shot makes it easier on his teammates when he's off the ball. Marbury likely didn't have the same affect, so while he had more assists, is that really the full gauge?

So Dame shooting a solid 3P% doesn't outweigh the potential long rebounds from when he does miss?

Dame's more efficient across the board, but you want to point to Marburys additional 1.3 assists per 36 minutes? Helping teammates score isn't just passing them the ball for them to do so.

And Dame would get more assists if he had offensively skilled forwards to pass to and dominated the ball more. But kickouts to Harkless/Turner won't result in any assists, but kickouts to most of the starting SFs in the league would result in some. Assists are highly subjective, and not a true measure of impact on teammates.

 

[BonesJones]

Okay, go ahead and continue to limit the discussion to a single stat, rather than the entire picture. If you can't see that they're similar*, and Clyde is superior, then, well, we're done.

*Again, I feel like you don't get that similar =/= same.

HAH!

The entire picture is TS% (2P%, 3P%, FT%).

You're the one limiting yourself to a less representative stat (FG%).

I don't think Clyde is superior.

 

[blue9]

Dame has never been a special passer. If you can't admit that you're a Kingspeed.

I like Dame, but don't pretend he doesn't have some issues to work on. Comparing him to Marbury/Francis is not a slight by any means - they were good players, and Dame compares favorably to them. What's the problem with that?

 

[blue9]

HAH!

The entire picture is TS% (2P%, 3P%, FT%).

You're the one limiting yourself to a less representative stat (FG%).

I don't think Clyde is superior.

No, you're limiting it to shooting percentages when there's a lot more to look at than just various measures of FG%. You continue to conflate "similar" with "same". I initially didn't notice it was you I was responding to - that's my bad. You're tiresome and impossible to have a conversation with.

 

[handiman]

And your argument fails here because you just named someone you say was AS spectacular (which I don't agree with)

"Generational" IMO means once every 20 years.

How many Stephon Marbury's were there? How many are there now?

Too many to name.

If you're going to accuse someone of failing in their argument, at least take a moment to think through whether yours holds water... Would you disagree that Hakeem, Ewing, and The Admiral were generational talents? So what if they played the same position at the same time. They're three of the greatest 10 centers of all-time.

The point being with Marbury, he had the talent that, if his head were screwed on straight, he could easily have been the premier PG of his and Iverson's class.

 

[BonesJones]

No, you're limiting it to shooting percentages when there's a lot more to look at than just various measures of FG%. You continue to conflate "similar" with "same". I initially didn't notice it was you I was responding to - that's my bad. You're tiresome and impossible to have a conversation with.

Lmao. Looks like you just accidentally had a conversation with me. Maybe you should block me so you don't accidentally lose any more arguments to me!

Every other aspect was similar. Dame makes it easier on his teammates, Clyde was a better defender. Rebounding for guards is irrelevant to me. The 3pt ability plus leadership qualities is why I think Dame is superior. If you have trouble arguing against that, then I'm sorry I'm so impossible to have a conversation with.

 

[dviss1]

If you're going to accuse someone of failing in their argument, at least take a moment to think through whether yours holds water... Would you disagree that Hakeem, Ewing, and The Admiral were generational talents? So what if they played the same position at the same time. They're three of the greatest 10 centers of all-time.

The point being with Marbury, he had the talent that, if his head were screwed on straight, he could easily have been the premier PG of his and Iverson's class.

Again, I disagree completely. And no Patrick Ewing was not a generational talent IMO. He was overrated Adonal Foyle. Probably the "star" center that's been dunked on the most.

 

[BonesJones]

Dame has never been a special passer. If you can't admit that you're a Kingspeed.

I like Dame, but don't pretend he doesn't have some issues to work on. Comparing him to Marbury/Francis is not a slight by any means - they were good players, and Dame compares favorably to them. What's the problem with that?

The problem with that is he's better on the court and much better off the court. It's weird that posters only compare Dame to players who are worse than him (except Clyde). This is like the 3rd time I've seen a Marbury and Lillard comparison thread. Shouldn't even be a comparison because of how different they are as people/leaders.

Why don't we compare Dame to some players slightly better than him?

 

[blue9]

Lmao. Looks like you just accidentally had a conversation with me. Maybe you should block me so you don't accidentally lose any more arguments to me!

LOL - I haven't seen anyone lose an argument to you.

Every other aspect was similar. Dame makes it easier on his teammates, Clyde was a better defender. Rebounding for guards is irrelevant to me. The 3pt ability plus leadership qualities is why I think Dame is superior. If you have trouble arguing against that, then I'm sorry I'm so impossible to have a conversation with.

Oh, so you DO agree that they're similar? So what the fuck are you arguing? Nobody is saying Dame isn't a superior leader and has intangibles that make him better than Marbury/Francis - way to straw man your argument! There was merely the suggestion that, statistically, they are similar. And it sounds like, finally, you agree with that assertion.

 

[calvin natt]

Again, I disagree completely. And no Patrick Ewing was not a generational talent IMO. He was overrated Adonal Foyle. Probably the "star" center that's been dunked on the most.

Ewing was a monster. 21 and 10, 2.5 blks a game for 15 years. All defensive team, All NBA, almost always an All Star, Olympian...pretty damn good. Almost samesies as Adonal Foyle

 

[BonesJones]

LOL - I haven't seen anyone lose an argument to you.

Then you need to learn the game!

Oh, so you DO agree that they're similar? So what the fuck are you arguing? Nobody is saying Dame isn't a superior leader and has intangibles that make him better than Marbury/Francis - way to straw man your argument! There was merely the suggestion that, statistically, they are similar. And it sounds like, finally, you agree with that assertion.

Dame is similar to Clyde, not the other two cats. Notice how I did every other aspect is similar in a post where I was talking about Clyde.

Dame is a much better player than Francis and Marbury, and those two aren't that similar to Dame.

 

[BonesJones]

Ewing was a monster. 21 and 10, 2.5 blks a game for 15 years. All defensive team, All NBA, almost always an All Star, Olympian...pretty damn good. Almost samesies as Adonal Foyle

Is Dwight Howard a generational talent?

 

[blue9]

Again, I disagree completely. And no Patrick Ewing was not a generational talent IMO. He was overrated Adonal Foyle. Probably the "star" center that's been dunked on the most.

I never got the Ewing hype. I only include him in discussions of the massive talent disparity between 90s and today because everyone else seems to think so highly of him. But he was a 2nd tier "star" IMO.

 

[blue9]

Then you need to learn the game!


Dame is similar to Clyde, not the other two cats. Notice how I did every other aspect is similar in a post where I was talking about Clyde.

Dame is a much better player than Francis and Marbury, and those two aren't that similar to Dame.

If you think "winning arguments" means never shutting the fuck up, then yeah, you "win" all the arguments. Post once more and you can "win" this one too.

 

[calvin natt]

Is Dwight Howard a generational talent?

I don't know, maybe, sure? I do think that people forget the first 8 years of Howards career a little too easily. Dominated defensively. How many big men has the NBA had since 2005 who have been better than Howard? Shaq, Duncan, ? Led league in rebounds about 7 times, DPOY 3 times, I mean, how many people in NBA history can say that?

 

[blue9]

I don't know, maybe, sure? I do think that people forget the first 8 years of Howards career a little too easily. Dominated defensively. How many big men has the NBA had since 2005 who have been better than Howard? Shaq, Duncan, ? Led league in rebounds about 7 times, DPOY 3 times, I mean, how many people in NBA history can say that?

It just dawned on me that BJ was probably just learning to walk when Howard started his career. Probably wasn't even born when Marbury entered the league. And his parents probably didn't even know each other when Clyde was going up against the GOAT.

 

[BonesJones]

If you think "winning arguments" means never shutting the fuck up, then yeah, you "win" all the arguments. Post once more and you can "win" this one too.

Winning arguments with you is done by getting you as triggered as you are now without any effort.

I'd put this in the W column.

 

[BonesJones]

It just dawned on me that BJ was probably just learning to walk when Howard started his career. Probably wasn't even born when Marbury entered the league. And his parents probably didn't even know each other when Clyde was going up against the GOAT.

Lol. I'm not that young. You give much more effort towards triggering me than I do to you, but you're the one triggered. Lmao.