Damn the deficit: Full speed ahead on health care

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Denny Crane

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http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...ed-ahead-on-health-care-8583120-73022217.html

Damn the deficit: Full speed ahead on health care

By: Michael Barone
Senior Political Analyst
November 25, 2009



Double-digit. That hyphenated adjective has been used most often recently to describe October's 10.2 percent unemployment rate. But it can also be used to describe the federal budget deficit as a percentage of the gross domestic product. That precise number is not yet known, but it may turn out to have a more dire effect on our national life than October's unemployment rate.

In the fiscal year just ended, federal spending was nearly 25 percent of GDP while federal revenues slipped below 15 percent because of the financial crisis and recession. We have not seen a budget deficit of this magnitude since World War II, which surely was a greater challenge than recent economic troubles.

Apologists for the Obama administration argue that some 2009 spending, like that on financial bailouts, is nonrecurring. True, but as the Congressional Budget Office has reported, the trajectory of administration spending and revenue is pushing the annual deficit toward $1,000,000,000,000 -- that's $1 trillion -- for the next decade.

Congressional Democrats' health care bills threaten to add to that. The bill currently before the Senate is advertised as costing less than $1 trillion. But significant spending doesn't kick in till 2014 and over the ensuing 10 years adds up to $1.8 trillion, nearly double that.

Thanks to current low interest rates, servicing the debt costs the government only $200 billion this year. But the White House estimates that debt service will exceed $700 billion in 2019. "In a few years," the Economist editorializes, "the AAA rating of Treasury bonds, the world's most important security, could be in jeopardy."

It's not only Republicans who decry this prospect. Examining the Democrats' health care proposals, William Galston, domestic policy adviser in the Clinton White House, writes, "We're already facing an unsustainable fiscal future."

Looking further ahead, Scott Winship notes in the Progressive Policy Institute's progressivefix.com blog that federal spending is on course to exceed 40 percent of GDP because of scheduled spending on entitlements -- Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid -- within the lifetime of today's children.

Yet the congressional Democrats who are pressing to expand federal health care spending do not seem much fazed by the prospect that, as Winship writes, "the level of taxation it would require to meet projected spending needs is far higher than anything the country has ever seen-slash-tolerated."

That suggests that, at least for some Democrats, huge looming budget deficits are not a bug but a feature.Just as Ronald Reagan hoped that cutting taxes would force politicians to cut spending, these Democrats hope that increasing spending will force politicians to increase taxes to levels common in Western Europe. Never mind that those economies have proved more sluggish and less creative than ours over the long haul.

The instrument they may have in mind is the value added tax, which operates as an invisible sales tax on goods and services. Back in May, Budget Director Peter Orszag's spokesman mentioned the VAT as a "credible idea" that he did not want to rule out. In June, House Ways and Means Chairman Charles Rangel suggested a VAT as "a point of discussion."

In September, John Podesta, head of the Obama transition team, spoke of how a VAT would "create a balance" with other economies, and White House adviser Paul Volcker cited a carbon tax and a VAT as ways to raise lots of revenue. In October, Speaker Nancy Pelosi said, "Somewhere along the way, a value added tax plays into this."

These statements are noteworthy, because American politicians are ordinarily skittish about saying we should imitate Europe's high-tax and high-spending policies. These policies seem more unpopular than ever 10 months into the Obama presidency. Pollster Scott Rasmussen reports that 53 percent of voters worry that the federal government will do too much in response to economic problems, while only 37 percent worry it will do too little.

That mirrors voters' current opposition to Democratic health care bills. Democratic leaders nonetheless want to jam one through before their current majorities are eroded, as they seem likely to be, in the 2010 elections. This is politically risky, but makes sense if your goal is to expand government.

So the battle over health care is not just about health care. It's about whether government will permanently gobble up more of the private-sector economy and slow it down in the process.

Michael Barone, The Examiner's senior political analyst, can be contacted at mbarone@washingtonexaminer.com. His columns appear Wednesday and Sunday, and his stories and blog posts appear on ExaminerPolitics.com.
 
That's a fairly dishonest article, in the way it conflates deficits with expenses, and implies a link between healthcare reform and a VAT tax, when in fact there is none.

barfo
 
Without passing any health care legislation, taxes will end up being in the 85% range for everyone just to pay for all the existing programs.

I must have missed where they took even more taxes, that would be levied, out of the health care bill. Assuming they didn't, it has to add to the 85%.

Yet the congressional Democrats who are pressing to expand federal health care spending do not seem much fazed by the prospect that, as Winship writes, "the level of taxation it would require to meet projected spending needs is far higher than anything the country has ever seen-slash-tolerated."
 
Without passing any health care legislation, taxes will end up being in the 85% range for everyone just to pay for all the existing programs.

Link?

barfo
 
It's in the article I posted.


  • In the fiscal year just ended, federal spending was nearly 25 percent of GDP
  • Scott Winship notes in the Progressive Policy Institute's progressivefix.com blog that federal spending is on course to exceed 40 percent of GDP because of scheduled spending on entitlements
  • federal revenues slipped below 15 percent (of GDP)

Spending is going to nearly double (25% to 40%)

Revenues would have to nearly triple (15% to 40%) to balance the budget.

What federal tax rate are you paying now? Triple it.
 
It's in the article I posted.


  • In the fiscal year just ended, federal spending was nearly 25 percent of GDP
  • Scott Winship notes in the Progressive Policy Institute's progressivefix.com blog that federal spending is on course to exceed 40 percent of GDP because of scheduled spending on entitlements
  • federal revenues slipped below 15 percent (of GDP)

Spending is going to nearly double (25% to 40%)

Revenues would have to nearly triple (15% to 40%) to balance the budget.

What federal tax rate are you paying now? Triple it.

That's not such good math, Denny. First of all, we are in a recession right now (or, at least, we were until very recently). Spending went up, revenues went down. That doesn't mean it will be that way forever. If/when the economy recovers, revenues will move closer to spending without any increase in the tax rates. Second, maybe the blog you cite is correct about future spending, maybe it isn't. Projections many years into the future are pretty notoriously wrong. "Within the lifetime of today's children" means what, the turn of the next century? Funny that you are a skeptic of projections of climate but a true believer in projections of the economy over the same timespan. I think the climate is a lot more predictable on that scale (at most, we'll be off by a couple of degrees C). In the next 90 years, I expect there will be a few more recessions, a number of significant changes in the fundamentals of the economy, wars, resource shortages, new technology, political changes, etc. Heck, in that timespan, a Libertarian might even get elected.

barfo
 
That's not such good math, Denny. First of all, we are in a recession right now (or, at least, we were until very recently). Spending went up, revenues went down. That doesn't mean it will be that way forever. If/when the economy recovers, revenues will move closer to spending without any increase in the tax rates. Second, maybe the blog you cite is correct about future spending, maybe it isn't. Projections many years into the future are pretty notoriously wrong. "Within the lifetime of today's children" means what, the turn of the next century? Funny that you are a skeptic of projections of climate but a true believer in projections of the economy over the same timespan. I think the climate is a lot more predictable on that scale (at most, we'll be off by a couple of degrees C). In the next 90 years, I expect there will be a few more recessions, a number of significant changes in the fundamentals of the economy, wars, resource shortages, new technology, political changes, etc. Heck, in that timespan, a Libertarian might even get elected.

barfo

You need to rethink this.

It's true only if spending stays at 25% of GDP. It's not, it's going to go to 40%+. Certainly higher if you add another 15% of GDP that is Health Care.

The trends in spending as a % of GDP due to already existing programs (liabilities) were toward 85% taxation required, even before the current recession.
 
You need to rethink this.

It's true only if spending stays at 25% of GDP. It's not, it's going to go to 40%+. Certainly higher if you add another 15% of GDP that is Health Care.


I'm not sure from whence you are pulling your numbers. Out of your hat, perhaps?

Healthcare spending is 17% of GDP now, but no one, not even the most socialist of the socialists, is proposing that all of that be paid for with taxes. So why you are adding 15% for healthcare is not clear to me.

Obviously the growth in existing programs as the population ages will increase spending. That doesn't actually make my point about the economic recovery false. They are two completely different effects.

The trends in spending as a % of GDP due to already existing programs (liabilities) were toward 85% taxation required, even before the current recession.

Even before the current recession? You mean it isn't Obama's fault after all? I'm shocked to hear you say so.

barfo
 
I'm not sure from whence you are pulling your numbers. Out of your hat, perhaps?

Healthcare spending is 17% of GDP now, but no one, not even the most socialist of the socialists, is proposing that all of that be paid for with taxes. So why you are adding 15% for healthcare is not clear to me.

Obviously the growth in existing programs as the population ages will increase spending. That doesn't actually make my point about the economic recovery false. They are two completely different effects.

Even before the current recession? You mean it isn't Obama's fault after all? I'm shocked to hear you say so.

barfo

You are using some sort of fuzzy math.

You seem to get that spending is headed northward of 40%, that's a start.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/26/AR2009052602909.html

Once Considered Unthinkable, U.S. Sales Tax Gets Fresh Look

Levy Viewed as Way to Reduce Deficits, Fund Health Reform

With budget deficits soaring and President Obama pushing a trillion-dollar-plus expansion of health coverage, some Washington policymakers are taking a fresh look at a money-making idea long considered politically taboo: a national sales tax.

Common around the world, including in Europe, such a tax -- called a value-added tax, or VAT -- has not been seriously considered in the United States. But advocates say few other options can generate the kind of money the nation will need to avert fiscal calamity.

"There is a growing awareness of the need for fundamental tax reform," Sen. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) said in an interview. "I think a VAT and a high-end income tax have got to be on the table."

GR2009052700195.gif
 
You seem to get that spending is headed northward of 40%, that's a start.

I get that the trend in spending is upwards (and, as you point out, that's nothing new... it's been known for a long long time). Something will eventually have to be done about that.

The answer, however, doesn't have to be an 85% tax rate (even if that was the right number, which I highly doubt since you seem to have plucked it out of the air).

In the end, we'll raise taxes somewhat, we'll cut spending somewhat, we'll continue to borrow somewhat.

It's a serious problem, I'm not trying to minimize it, but there are solutions, all of which are compromises, all of which will be objectionable to some of us, all of which will provide endless opportunities for us to debate here.

A VAT tax, for one, wouldn't bring about the apocalypse.

barfo
 
I get that the trend in spending is upwards (and, as you point out, that's nothing new... it's been known for a long long time). Something will eventually have to be done about that.

The answer, however, doesn't have to be an 85% tax rate (even if that was the right number, which I highly doubt since you seem to have plucked it out of the air).

In the end, we'll raise taxes somewhat, we'll cut spending somewhat, we'll continue to borrow somewhat.

It's a serious problem, I'm not trying to minimize it, but there are solutions, all of which are compromises, all of which will be objectionable to some of us, all of which will provide endless opportunities for us to debate here.

A VAT tax, for one, wouldn't bring about the apocalypse.

barfo

No matter what GDP is, if govt. spends 25% of it, it needs to tax 25% of it. If it spends 40%+ of it, it needs to tax 40%+ of it.

I didn't pluck 85% out of thin air, and I showed you how I arrived at the number.

At current tax rates, 39.6% top bracket etc., the government brings in 15% of GDP.

Double ALL the brackets and it takes in 30% of GDP, top bracket at 79.2%.

And there's still a massive shortfall.

I am includng FICA taxes, but I am not including state taxes. In California, that 79.2% would be 89.5%.

I'm including a doubling of business tax rate to 70% as well.

Again, that's to achieve 30% of GDP, when 40%+ is needed. And again, that's before govt. tacks on a massive new spending program in the form of Health Care (which the numbers are seriously underestimated).

I'm fine with a VAT tax instead of income tax. But your party is talking about adding a VAT tax on top of income tax. It's going to hit every single person in the country who buys anything.
 
No matter what GDP is, if govt. spends 25% of it, it needs to tax 25% of it. If it spends 40%+ of it, it needs to tax 40%+ of it.

No, actually, as the last 10 years shows, it doesn't need to do that. There is no balanced budget requirement.

I didn't pluck 85% out of thin air, and I showed you how I arrived at the number.

I don't think your math is very precise, and that your assumptions are pretty wild.

At current tax rates, 39.6% top bracket etc., the government brings in 15% of GDP.

Double ALL the brackets and it takes in 30% of GDP, top bracket at 79.2%.

And there's still a massive shortfall.

And we are in a recession. Maybe it would be more honest to use a non-recessionary fraction of GDP for tax collections, unless you think we are going to be in a permanent recession?

Again, that's to achieve 30% of GDP

...today

, when 40%+ is needed.

...someday in the distant future, IF nothing else changes.

And again, that's before govt. tacks on a massive new spending program in the form of Health Care (which the numbers are seriously underestimated).

I think I'm going to believe the CBO over you on that, sorry.

I'm fine with a VAT tax instead of income tax. But your party is talking about adding a VAT tax on top of income tax. It's going to hit every single person in the country who buys anything.

At the moment, it's just talk. Wake me up when there is an actual bill in Congress.

barfo
 
Here's a former treasury dept. economist's article about the tax increase required just to pay for SS and Medicare. He doesn't go into paying for all the rest of the increased spending the government is undertaking.

The 81% Tax Increase (To pay for government's promises on Social Security and Medicare)

The current budget is $3.6T (Clinton's last was $2T), and there's a projected ~4x in interest on the debt alone, according to Obama's own figures. That's be from $200B to $700B. If the idiots would hold spending down so there'd be a nominal increase in those debt payments, ONE YEAR'S WORTH OF SAVINGS ON THOSE PAYMENTS WOULD PAY FOR 5 YEARS OF THE HEALTH CARE BILL.I can see by your logic that you think we can run massive deficits forever. I hope for your sake you don't run your personal finances that way.

You ask if I think we're going to be in a recession forever. No, I don't. But I don't think the government is going to get inflated capital gains taxes from the sales of assets valued as the result of a bubble. Particularly homes and stocks & bonds.
 
I can see by your logic that you think we can run massive deficits forever.

No. But history makes clear we can run massive deficits for short periods of time, or moderate deficits for longer periods of time. I'm not arguing that we should, either - just that it doesn't bring about the end of the civilization if we do.

I hope for your sake you don't run your personal finances that way.

I have no debt. But then, my situation is a little bit different from Uncle Sam's.

You ask if I think we're going to be in a recession forever. No, I don't. But I don't think the government is going to get inflated capital gains taxes from the sales of assets valued as the result of a bubble. Particularly homes and stocks & bonds.

Really? There will never be another bubble of any sort? Investors have now, after hundreds of years of practice, finally learned to value things correctly? Somehow I doubt that.

barfo
 
No. But history makes clear we can run massive deficits for short periods of time, or moderate deficits for longer periods of time. I'm not arguing that we should, either - just that it doesn't bring about the end of the civilization if we do.



I have no debt. But then, my situation is a little bit different from Uncle Sam's.



Really? There will never be another bubble of any sort? Investors have now, after hundreds of years of practice, finally learned to value things correctly? Somehow I doubt that.

barfo

When does Obama project the massive deficits are going away? From the Washington Posts' graphic I posted earlier, it looks like they don't and get worse as time progresses.
 
There's a bottom line to all this.

Under the Obama administration we have, and will continue, to be pushed past the point of 'no return' and our insolvency ans associated tax increases to try and stave it off have been set in cement. Now it's a matter of time. The healthcare bill and it's ultimate aim will be the full and final nail in the coffin.

When the bill comes due, at best we can expect a full depression and hyper inflation.

Now, to be sure, past presidents have to take some of the blame as well. But the Obama administration had the option to pull us out or seal our doom. They chose the latter option without reservation.

An insolvent country is now a decided fact. I wonder what the additional ramifications will be as well?
 
When does Obama project the massive deficits are going away? From the Washington Posts' graphic I posted earlier, it looks like they don't and get worse as time progresses.

I missed or don't remember your graphic, but according to the CBO, the deficit is projected to shrink from a high of $1.6T in 2009 to $0.6T in 2012, and then flatten out at about that level for the rest of the decade.

barfo
 
I missed or don't remember your graphic, but according to the CBO, the deficit is projected to shrink from a high of $1.6T in 2009 to $0.6T in 2012, and then flatten out at about that level for the rest of the decade.

barfo

Bzzzt.

Wrong answer.

GR2009052700195.gif
 
Bzzzt.

Wrong answer.

How is that the wrong answer? It appears to more or less in line with your graph. I said 1.6 and 0.6; your graph says 1.8 and 0.6. Whereas you claimed the deficits were just going to keep getting bigger.

barfo
 
How is that the wrong answer? It appears to more or less in line with your graph. I said 1.6 and 0.6; your graph says 1.8 and 0.6. Whereas you claimed the deficits were just going to keep getting bigger.

barfo

My bad, you said $779B by the end of the decade, right? Which is remaining flat from $688B the year before.
 
My bad, you said $779B by the end of the decade, right? Which is remaining flat from $688B the year before.

I said "about that level", not "exactly at that level".
Relative to the huge 2009 spike to a 1.6T (or 1.8T) deficit, a range of 0.59 to 0.72 (CBO) or 0.51 to 0.78 (OMB) is relatively flat.

barfo
 
I said "about that level", not "exactly at that level".
Relative to the huge 2009 spike to a 1.6T (or 1.8T) deficit, a range of 0.59 to 0.72 (CBO) or 0.51 to 0.78 (OMB) is relatively flat.

barfo

$779B is outrageous. Paying $700B in interest is bad policy.

Imagine if your party did live up to their promises (Pelosi, 2006, Pay as You Go), that $700B in interest would pay for health care insurance for 7x more people than the absurdly expensive bill before congress does.
 
There's a bottom line to all this.

Under the Obama administration we have, and will continue, to be pushed past the point of 'no return' and our insolvency ans associated tax increases to try and stave it off have been set in cement. Now it's a matter of time. The healthcare bill and it's ultimate aim will be the full and final nail in the coffin.

When the bill comes due, at best we can expect a full depression and hyper inflation.

Now, to be sure, past presidents have to take some of the blame as well. But the Obama administration had the option to pull us out or seal our doom. They chose the latter option without reservation.

An insolvent country is now a decided fact. I wonder what the additional ramifications will be as well?

Or we could just pull out of Iraq or Afghanistan. Either one would save more than double what it costs for health care.

Somehow I don't think the nail in the coffin is Obama's health plan. I think past presidents have to take quite a large chunk of the blame. Spending was going down quite rapidly between 1950 and 1980. And then something happened, I can't quite figure it out. But there was some sort of massive spending increase that started in the 80's. Hrm, I'll have to read that later.

Believe it or not, though, I share your opinion that there is a good chance we head towards insolvency. Unfortunately unlike earlier historical times we don't have a real growth industry (except maybe the energy industry) to start us up again. We've had presidents who pushed for free trade (which is not fair trade) and wouldn't punish the Chinese for currency manipulation when it started. So here we sit, unable to ever effectively lower our currency beneath the Chinese yuan which would spur massive manufacturing growth in this country again.

But hey, I guess I'm just a protectionist liberal because I want everyone to be on a level playing field.
 
$779B is outrageous. Paying $700B in interest is bad policy.

Ok, fine, change the subject. I'm certainly not arguing that having a big debt is good.

Imagine if your party did live up to their promises (Pelosi, 2006, Pay as You Go), that $700B in interest would pay for health care insurance for 7x more people than the absurdly expensive bill before congress does.

Imagine if your party could get elected. Think of the broken promises they'd leave behind.

The absurdly expensive health care bill we debated a few days ago, and I showed that your claim it was absurdly expensive was itself absurd.

barfo
 
Ok, fine, change the subject. I'm certainly not arguing that having a big debt is good.



Imagine if your party could get elected. Think of the broken promises they'd leave behind.

The absurdly expensive health care bill we debated a few days ago, and I showed that your claim it was absurdly expensive was itself absurd.

barfo

I think you've repeatedly shown that what you think isn't absurdly expensive is like how the deficits are going to remain flat, and how the actual medical costs are equivalent to the cost of paying premiums.
 
Or we could just pull out of Iraq or Afghanistan. Either one would save more than double what it costs for health care.

Somehow I don't think the nail in the coffin is Obama's health plan. I think past presidents have to take quite a large chunk of the blame. Spending was going down quite rapidly between 1950 and 1980. And then something happened, I can't quite figure it out. But there was some sort of massive spending increase that started in the 80's. Hrm, I'll have to read that later.

Believe it or not, though, I share your opinion that there is a good chance we head towards insolvency. Unfortunately unlike earlier historical times we don't have a real growth industry (except maybe the energy industry) to start us up again. We've had presidents who pushed for free trade (which is not fair trade) and wouldn't punish the Chinese for currency manipulation when it started. So here we sit, unable to ever effectively lower our currency beneath the Chinese yuan which would spur massive manufacturing growth in this country again.

But hey, I guess I'm just a protectionist liberal because I want everyone to be on a level playing field.

I am quite sure the bolded part is incorrect, but I share most of your opinions in the rest of the post.

However, there was no deficit in 1969, in 1977 it was $50B, and in 1980 it was ~$100B. Over the course of four years of Carter, the structural deficit doubled. Compare to Reagan's EIGHT years, where they started at $100B and ended at $200B (also doubled).

I'm pretty sure that the cost of stationing military personnel overseas is a modest incremental cost over having them serve here in the states. And as near as I can tell, the cost of the Wars are about $700B for all the years since 2001/2003 combined.
 
I think you've repeatedly shown that what you think isn't absurdly expensive is like how the deficits are going to remain flat, and how the actual medical costs are equivalent to the cost of paying premiums.

If you are still not admitting defeat on the VA thing, there is no point in arguing with you, because facts can't convince you. I believe I proved beyond the slightest shred of a doubt that your figures were wrong.

barfo
 
If you are still not admitting defeat on the VA thing, there is no point in arguing with you, because facts can't convince you. I believe I proved beyond the slightest shred of a doubt that your figures were wrong.

barfo

You threw up a strawman and I tired of teaching you stuff from a basic Business 101 class.

They insure 26.5M vets, even if only one shows up for care or signs up. Period. This is an indisputable fact.

You claim ~$7000 is the cost of insuring a veteran, yet it's the expense of providing health care services per veteran who shows up at a VA hospital. You even cited it as "medical budget" which is not "insurance budget" and you glossed over that in your "proof."

If 10 people buy insurance and one shows up and it costs $100K for his care, the insurance company's medical budget costs are $100K, but 10 people are still insured. By your faulty reasoning, the cost of insurance per person is somehow $100K, as if only one person was insured.

I just proved you wrong in 2 sentences.
 
I am quite sure the bolded part is incorrect, but I share most of your opinions in the rest of the post.

However, there was no deficit in 1969, in 1977 it was $50B, and in 1980 it was ~$100B. Over the course of four years of Carter, the structural deficit doubled. Compare to Reagan's EIGHT years, where they started at $100B and ended at $200B (also doubled).

I'm pretty sure that the cost of stationing military personnel overseas is a modest incremental cost over having them serve here in the states. And as near as I can tell, the cost of the Wars are about $700B for all the years since 2001/2003 combined.



http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo4.htm

This seems to indicate the historical debt tripled under Reagan...

http://www.marktaw.com/culture_and_media/TheNationalDebt.html

An interesting read, economically technical though it may be. No matter how you look at it, Reagan to Bush Sr. screwed us over royally in terms of economics. And I actually liked Bush Sr. Carter did double the new debt and then pulled it back down before Reagan took over.
 

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