Dave from Blazersedge puts his finger on something important ...

[The_Lillard_King]

The Blazers overachieved last year to get 54 wins. They've overachieved this year to be in the playoff hunt despite all the injuries. I think this whole thing about not having fire is pure bunk.

I agree.

Also, the Blazer's star and leader has fire. Roy leaves it on the court night in and night out (throw away those 10 games with the mystery hamstring). He has willed the team to victory on many occassions.

I think being soft defensively in the paint is being interpreted as having no heart. But Dave doesn't make much sense to me to say that the team (unlike other teams) don't "rip away" wins or that when excellence, brilliance, and excitement isn't enough, Blazers can't win because they can't do more (whatever that means). Blazers have shown the ability to come from behind, to win close games down the stretch and to buckle down and win the fourth quater to win games.

This team might not be as physical other teams, but they have the heart, fire and pride it takes to win games . . . and they have been doing that this season.

 

[hasoos]

Phil is fiery? You've got to be kidding me. The Zen Master?

It seems like people are confusing getting a technical as being fiery. I would all but guarantee that Nate yells and screams way more than Phil.

Based on your criteria, we need a coach that gets tech and calls out his players publicly. Sounds like you think Don Nelson would be a perfect fit.

How is it Nate's fault that we have a collection of softer players?

Say what you will, but Phil Jackson is an enormously successful coach. He doesn't go insane like Nate does, but his words carry weight. That is because he is quietly intense. Are you going to tell me that over his career that he hasn't had a tremendous amount of success getting players to play the right way by calling them out in public? Are you going to tell me that Phil Jackson hasn't had a ton of success taking $25k fines for calling out the refs about the way they called a basketball game? Comparing him to Don Nelson in order to try and belittle my statement is a far reach at best. Don Nelson is a small ball coaching loser who puts his players in a position to fail and then blames them for the failure in the press after the fact. Phil Jackson puts his players in a position to succeed and calls them out when extra motivation is needed to push the team a little bit further, or when they are acting like a child and not listening, so they need to be called out so their ruse is up. Two completely different situations.

Secondly, I never said Nate was responsible for any of the current players being here. So I have no idea what you are referring to there.

 

[andalusian]

Interesting article about Roy trying to become more focused to go hard all the time and be the constant hard-ass.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...?slug=mc-royblazers031610&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

With some heavy praise from Mr. Kobe Bryant.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Interesting article about Roy trying to become more focused to go hard all the time and be the constant hard-ass.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...?slug=mc-royblazers031610&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

With some heavy praise from Mr. Kobe Bryant.

So basically even Roy agrees ...

“I look back at [Michael] Jordan, and Kobe recently. Those guys try to dominate. You look at big men like Shaq, they dominate,” Roy said. “It was an edge. I got to get that edge. Even when I play against Carmelo and those guys, they play with that edge. They want to bury you. I’m thinking, ‘I got to get that edge.’ ”

 

[andalusian]

So basically even Roy agrees ...

I think Roy have had it before, his playoffs performance was nothing short of amazing, allow me to remind you - but when he had trouble getting to play off the ball earlier this year people were bitching that he can not share the ball, can not be a part of the team.

I am going back to what I said earlier in the year - for this team to go forward and succeed, we need to accept that Roy is an elite player and you need to make him happy and comfortable running the offense. That's where it starts, that's where it ends. Anything else we get from the other guys is great, but it's a secondary concern. I love what Greg has done at the beginning of the year, but it still has to be a secondary thing to Roy running the offense. We were trying too hard to force it to him on the block - and that's a big reason this team, earlier this year, was only 10th in offensive efficiency. Love what he does and love establishing the interior play, but it has to come as a secondary tool to Roy attacking.

Andre Miller has finally started to look as part of this team by (surprise, surprise) doing what the coaching staff preach - protect the ball, reduce turn-overs, try to minimize his jump-shots and attack the rim - and you know why it looks good - because it works with Roy being the main guy when it counts. Roy dictates how it goes and the offense looks much better.

Again, I am just not buying this entire thing that this team is not tough - and that Roy is not capable to be a hard-ass, he has been for a long time - and it should be encouraged.

There are very tough guys on this team, and it starts with Roy - and they would not be as successful given the adversity they faced this year - if they were not tough.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I think Roy have had it before, his playoffs performance was nothing short of amazing, allow me to remind you - but when he had trouble getting to play off the ball earlier this year people were bitching that he can not share the ball, can not be a part of the team.

I am going back to what I said earlier in the year - for this team to go forward and succeed, we need to accept that Roy is an elite player and you need to make him happy and comfortable running the offense. That's where it starts, that's where it ends. Anything else we get from the other guys is great, but it's a secondary concern. I love what Greg has done at the beginning of the year, but it still has to be a secondary thing to Roy running the offense. We were trying too hard to force it to him on the block - and that's a big reason this team, earlier this year, was only 10th in offensive efficiency. Love what he does and love establishing the interior play, but it has to come as a secondary tool to Roy attacking.

Andre Miller has finally started to look as part of this team but (surprise, surprise) doing what the coaching staff preach - protect the ball, reduce turn-overs, try to minimize his jump-shots and attack the rim - and you know why it looks good - because it works with Roy being the main guy when it counts. Roy dictates how it goes and the offense looks much better.

Again, I am just not buying this entire thing that this team is not tough - and that Roy is not capable to be a hard-ass, he has been for a long time - and it should be encouraged.

I didn't say he's incapable, but even he admits that he hasn't been a 'dick' enough or ruthless enough.

 

[Tince]

Say what you will, but Phil Jackson is an enormously successful coach. He doesn't go insane like Nate does, but his words carry weight. That is because he is quietly intense. Are you going to tell me that over his career that he hasn't had a tremendous amount of success getting players to play the right way by calling them out in public? Are you going to tell me that Phil Jackson hasn't had a ton of success taking $25k fines for calling out the refs about the way they called a basketball game? Comparing him to Don Nelson in order to try and belittle my statement is a far reach at best. Don Nelson is a small ball coaching loser who puts his players in a position to fail and then blames them for the failure in the press after the fact. Phil Jackson puts his players in a position to succeed and calls them out when extra motivation is needed to push the team a little bit further, or when they are acting like a child and not listening, so they need to be called out so their ruse is up. Two completely different situations.

Secondly, I never said Nate was responsible for any of the current players being here. So I have no idea what you are referring to there.

First off, I think Phil has had a ton of success, and I'm not trying to discount what he's done. However, I think you are WAY off with the reasoning for his success. I think his success in the NBA is mainly do to three things.

1) He's almost always had 2 HOF players on his roster at a given time. That helps a ton.

2) He has a very good offensive system and has been given time to teach it to a core group for a long period of time.

3) He allows his superstars to call out their teammates and hold people accountable. Michael and Kobe are two of the most competitive people to ever play, and I don't think you can give Phil much credit for that.

I don't think Nate getting a random T every few games and calling LMA soft in the media will catapult us into championship contention. Am I wrong?

 

[andalusian]

I didn't say he's incapable, but even he admits that he hasn't been a 'dick' enough or ruthless enough.

I think he was a lot more last year - but this year, given the other players on the team - Miller needing the ball, Oden needing touches - and the emphasis on making sacrifices for the team that they had earlier in the year - it seems that Roy has sacrificed a lot of his game - and the reality is that the vets were smart enough to notice that he is doing too much of it - remember Howard telling him "to stand out" and Camby telling him to shoot more.

I just think that this is a trait of a team that was "raised" on the idea that they need to get-along and respect each other - and maybe, just maybe, it is time to accept that ISO plays for Roy and playing to his strength by encouraging him to be more selfish is a good thing.

I also think, however, that the idea that this team is not tough is just out of touch with reality. They would not have done what we have seen them do this year without being tough. Not going to happen. They might have started with tons more talent that most teams - but they played a very large portion of this year being behind on the talent level - when you actually look at the players on the court at any time. This is a team that had, for long periods of time, featured Webster (a career backup SF, it seems), Howard (undersized, old) as their starting SF and Center, playing next to Aldridge (which had bad sprain for a long time and played through it) - and even went through a stretch where the starting SG was Bayless (love his enthusiasm, but he is raw and inconsistent) - and yet they did not fold in this case, they did not do a 1-9 stretch like we have seen the Raptors just go through.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I think he was a lot more last year - but this year, given the other players on the team - Miller needing the ball, Oden needing touches - and the emphasis on making sacrifices for the team that they had earlier in the year - it seems that Roy has sacrificed a lot of his game - and the reality is that the vets were smart enough to notice that he is doing too much of it - remember Howard telling him "to stand out" and Camby telling him to shoot more.

I just think that this is a trait of a team that was "raised" on the idea that they need to get-along and respect each other - and maybe, just maybe, it is time to accept that ISO plays for Roy and playing to his strength by encouraging him to be more selfish is a good thing.

This isn't about Isos and playcalling, it's about Roy knowing when his team needs a lift and for him to take over and carry them ... but I still contend that even if Roy taps into his inner badass fully, he's still going to need at least one and possibly two more players with that same killer instinct to follow him -- I see it budding in Nic, Dante plays with a chip on his shoulder, but there are a whole lot of guys left who I see playing without that certain level of 'hardness'

 

[andalusian]

This isn't about Isos and playcalling

This so called "softness" or "not always going hard" imho was exactly because of that this year, there was a backlash at him, on this very board (not to mention other analysts on national media) for trying to do it, for needing the ball, for not playing well off the ball - so, like a good guy, he did, at time - let Miller lead, let others do it.

but I still contend that even if Roy taps into his inner badass fully, he's still going to need at least one and possibly two more players with that same killer instinct to follow him -- I see it budding in Nic, Dante plays with a chip on his shoulder, but there are a whole lot of guys left who I see playing without that certain level of 'hardness'

I thought Oden was definitely playing mean in the beginning of the year before he went down. That first game against SAS - in the Rose Garden - you saw him running hard after balls bumping Duncan. You hear d about him reminding the team not to take OKC lightly when they went there and won - and quite frankly, we have seen it in Oden in the past in College play.

Add Nic, Bayless, and at times LMA - and this team has these guys. They had it in Joel as well - but, who knows how it is going to be with him going forward. Dante and Pendergraph seem to play hard as well - so, overall - this is really not the area that worries me about this team. I just do not question their heart or desire.

 

[LittleAlex]

I don't think Nate getting a random T every few games and calling LMA soft in the media will catapult us into championship contention. Am I wrong?

Well sure, if the T's were totally at random they wouldn't have any effect.

But how many times has the team being absolutely fucked by the officials and Nate just stands there like a statue.

I do think there is something to be said for a coach standing up for his players in a situation like that to show them he has their back.

Sometimes that results in a T. The technical is incidental to the purpose of what they coach does.

 

[mgb]

And now, in the season where they were finally supposed to grow together and start playing like veterans, they can't keep a team healthy and on the floor.

They can't keep a team healthy and on the floor? That loses me right there. It's like it's the Blazers fault that they've had these injuries during a season they were suppose to grow together and so forth. Injuries happen and we've had more than our share this season so this season hasn't been what we expected, but even so we have done really well considering the injuries. How tough and consistent this team is has a lot to do with getting players use to playing together which because of injuries and new players has been difficult this year, yet even then we've been pretty tough if you look at the wins we've achieved considering all of that.

 

[BGrantFan]

But how many times has the team being absolutely fucked by the officials and Nate just stands there like a statue.

I'm not sure, but the stats say that the Blazers are #4 in the NBA in FT differential at +2.9. I suppose if Nate was more of a hardass, perhaps they would be #1, but whatever he is doing seems to be working better than 26 other coaches, at least in terms of his players getting to the FT line.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/differential-per-game/sort/avgFreeThrowsMadeDifference

 

[Tince]

Well sure, if the T's were totally at random they wouldn't have any effect.

But how many times has the team being absolutely fucked by the officials and Nate just stands there like a statue.

I do think there is something to be said for a coach standing up for his players in a situation like that to show them he has their back.

Sometimes that results in a T. The technical is incidental to the purpose of what they coach does.

I've always felt this was a myth. I know the theory, but I've seen it go both ways.

Until I see data that shoes a team plays better after his coach gets a technical, I'm not going to hold it against any coach.

 

[LittleAlex]

I've always felt this was a myth. I know the theory, but I've seen it go both ways.

Until I see data that shoes a team plays better after his coach gets a technical, I'm not going to hold it against any coach.

Did you actually read my post? I said the recieving of the technical was irrelevant compared to showing your team that you have their back.

But you definitely should show your team you have their back in a situation that warrents it. Nate does't do that, other coaches do.

 

[BGrantFan]

Did you actually read my post? I said the recieving of the technical was irrelevant compared to showing your team that you have their back.

But you definitely should show your team you have their back in a situation that warrents it. Nate does't do that, other coaches do.

As I already pointed out, Nate's team gets to the FT line 3 more times a game than their opponents, 4th in the NBA. Would giving the opposing team an extra FT every game or so help the team? What Nate is doing seems to be working, at least somewhat well.

 

[BlazerWookee]

I am not buying this thing at all. This year was a model for toughness. You have that many injuries, people will either start to play for themselves or fold down.

Let's look at a tough team, with a tough coach. The Utah Jazz. They are tough, right? Last year, their top-6 players, through an 82 games season lost 91 games - tons of games, they finished the year with 48 wins.

This year, the soft Blazers, with their soft coach, have lost 162 games from their top 6 players (not including injuries to Rudy or Travis or Blake or Bayless), through 69 games - and they are on pace to win 48-49 games.

If this team is not tough, I have no clue what tough means. Not buying this stuff. This team will rip out wins they should not. They might not be pretty wins, they might have long ugly sections of games where they are not looking good - but at the end of the day, these guys rip out wins no-one imagined they could.

Go to Dallas, lose Joel, and win? Done. Go to SAS, no Roy, no Oden, no Travis, no Joel and win? Done.

Give me a break. This is a tough team. Just because they do not act like thugs or have crazy tatoos does not mean they are not tough.

This team has been tough from the get go - 2nd youngest team in the league, last year, won 54. How the hell did they do it? Through playing pretty and soft? Not buying this.

Repped.

 

[Tince]

Did you actually read my post? I said the recieving of the technical was irrelevant compared to showing your team that you have their back.

But you definitely should show your team you have their back in a situation that warrents it. Nate does't do that, other coaches do.

Yes, I read your post. And I'm assuming you read all my posts in this thread, so my response should make sense.

I didn't see anywhere in your post where you said getting a technical is irrelevant when it comes to standing up for your team. You actually connect the two by saying that sometimes standing up for your team results in a technical. If you are saying that getting a technical is irrelevant, than we agree, so that's good!

I've never read anything from current or former players of Nate that implies they felt he never defended them or didn't have their back. Just because he isn't a kicker or a screamer doesn't mean he doesn't defend his team. He does get upset with the officials multiple times a game.

 

[BlazerWookee]

I can't tell you how grateful I am that first words in the first post on this thread weren't "Daniel Baldwin's Prostate Gland."

 

[BBert]

I see Brandon with a budding killer instinct, I think Nic has ice water in his veins, but beyond those two (and possibly Dante) who else on this team do you think is capable of creating a win at all costs mentality on this team? Or are we still waiting for our Mo Lucas or Buck Williams to be added to this roster?

Greg. Oden. Once it becomes his team even his teammates will be afraid of him.

Roy. He won't bring it for 48/82, especially on defense, but he'll bring it when it counts.

Nico. The quiet assassin. I want this guy to have my back when the game is on the line.

Bayless. Although he may not have the talent, we'll see.

Two years ago I thought Aldridge might develop an attitude. Then came the contract? Someone needs to punch him in the mouth a few times and turn him mean. But really it's on Nate to make him the player we want him to be. Exactly what Mychal Thompson said in the Bosh article. I won't hold my breath.

Rudy is a big stage, big time, clutch player, but who knows who will even be on the team by then? There's no sense speculating on the rest.

I think what's important here is that the team can make changes to get over the hump that incorporate the kind of psychological factors you are speaking of as well as filling talent needs.

And the coach needs to be re-evaluated for all those factors every year.

 

[barfo]

I can't tell you how grateful I am that first words in the first post on this thread weren't "Daniel Baldwin's Prostate Gland."

I thought the answer was going to be "the clitoris".

barfo

 

[jlprk]

Does toughness just mean a smooth consistent work ethic, or does it mean opponents bouncing off of you as you stomp on them in the paint and on fast breaks? Only Oden plays that way, and McMillan will change him.

 

[BGrantFan]

Does toughness just mean a smooth consistent work ethic, or does it mean opponents bouncing off of you as you stomp on them in the paint and on fast breaks? Only Oden plays that way, and McMillan will change him.

Considering Oden's inability to stay on the court due to foul trouble, perhaps he does need some help tempering this instinct.

 

[BenDavis503]

I hope to God Brandon gets the killer instinct soon. He needs to 'Kobe Up'

 

[maxiep]

IMO Oden is a lot "hungrier" than most think, I think especially after the injuries and with all the doubters he wants it REALLY BAD. The only caveat is of course whether he can stay healthy.

This is exactly what I was going to post. Greg is a winner. Every where he goes, he wins. You don't have a record like his without being a badass. Just because he's a nice guy off the court doesn't mean he's not tough on it. GO is like Tim Duncan in that sense.

 

[STOMP]

The Blazers overachieved last year to get 54 wins. They've overachieved this year to be in the playoff hunt despite all the injuries. I think this whole thing about not having fire is pure bunk.

yup, I think Dave (and some on the board) might be going through some Blazer withdrawals with this long stint between games

STOMP

 

[WillG]

I've long thought that this problem stems from the two leaders Roy & Aldridge.
The problem is that neither has the drive or fire to push, not only themselves, but their teammates to the pinnacle of the NBA.
LMA plays like he's been lobotomized of the intensity section of his brain, so I wouldn't even expect it from him at this stage.

Roy on the other hand is the unquestioned leader of this team. I think the problem is a filter down effect from him.

He yelps/complains on most of his drives, which I don't think instills respect in anyone, and was a bit sulky at the start of the season regarding the Miller situation.
Not the way to lead by example.
He's looked like basketball has made him weary this season, he took the offseason off (to get away from bBall) and he even recently said in an interview that basketball had become "like a job" for him.
That is worrying to hear from your leader/superstar. If he's got no passion for the game it will certainly trickle down to the young guys who play with, and look up to him.

I think Brandon is still trying to figure it all out (see the Kobe comment "It's not a switch" after Roy asked him why did he want to play hard in the all-star game?), and I don't want to seem to harsh on Roy as he's a young man that has had a lot on his plate the past few years.
He's still a young guy, a new father and has experienced being thrust into the leadership role of a borderline Star in only a few short years.
Whether Brandon can or even over time, HAS, the desire to reach the summit of basketball remains to be seen.

Regardless of if he can or cannot, we still have Oden, who I think is a "winner" and will lead by example.

 

[MickZagger]

I don't see where Brandon isn't tough. His best games he's had in his career have came against really good teams. The Christmas game he was tough as a nails, same with the first game we played against the Lakers.

No matter how hard a defender tries to get into Brandon and make him speed up his game, he's still a cool customer and it doesn't effect him at all. To me, thats tough. Just because he isn't barking at opponents after he drains one in their eye, or trip up defender or throw elbows like Kobe, doesn't mean he's not tough.

Those who think Brandon isn't tough, is a little misguided.

As for getting into his teammates, he does. He's called successful player meetings in the past and the players have responded to him. He's constantly talking on the court, getting teammates involved. His defense, needs work, but as long as he can bring it at the end of the game when it matters, I'm cool with that.

Aldridge on the other hand, I can't say that he's tough. I've seen glimpses, but he's just not tough, he fades away way too often.