Decision Time On Options for CJ, Meyers and T-Rob

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The last part of my comment was from Larry Coons site. Also a player has to have played on a single contract or for the same team for 3 years to be a Larry Bird except. Or 2 years for an Early Bird exception.

I think you may have misunderstood Neil.
 
I stand corrected about being able to have the bird exception...

41. What does renouncing a player mean?

As detailed in question number 38, free agents continue to be included in team salary. By renouncing a player, a team gives up its right to use the Larry Bird, Early Bird, or Non-Bird exceptions (see question number 25) to re-sign that player. A renounced player no longer counts toward team salary, so teams use renouncement to gain additional cap room. Teams are still permitted to re-sign renounced players, but only with cap room or an exception other than the Bird exception. The exception to this rule is that an Early Bird free agent who is coming off the second season of his rookie scale contract. Such players, when renounced, are treated as Non-Bird free agents.

If the player does not sign with any team (his prior team or any other team) for the entire season, then his renouncement continues. In other words, the team is not permitted to renounce a player, let him sit idle for the year, and then re-sign him the following summer using Bird rights. However, if the player re-signs with his prior team, then his renouncement is no longer in effect when his contract ends. For example, if a team renounces their Larry Bird rights to a player, then re-signs that player to a one-year contract using cap room, the player will be a Larry Bird free agent once again the following summer.

After renouncing a player, a team can still trade the player in a sign-and-trade agreement (see question number 91).
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Don't know how this applies, but it looks like a denouncement does drop the bird exception. If anyone else has more to add, I appreciate it
 
Schilly said:
The last part of my comment was from Larry Coons site. Also a player has to have played on a single contract or for the same team for 3 years to be a Larry Bird except. Or 2 years for an Early Bird exception.

I think you may have misunderstood Neil.
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That could be... It hasn't been the first time.

He could have meant the existing free agents: Matthews, lopez, etc
 
From Coin regarding rookie contracts specifically, expanded from what I posted before.

Teams have until the October 312*preceding the player's second regular season to exercise their option for the player's third season. Likewise, they have until the October 312*preceding the player's third regular season to exercise their option for the player's fourth season (see question number*59*for more information on options). If the team invokes both options (keeping the player for all four seasons) and submits a qualifying offer after the fourth season, then the player becomes a restricted free agent (see question number*44*for more information on restricted free agency). If the team declines either option, then the player enters free agency as an unrestricted free agent.

However, if the team declines either option and the player becomes a free agent, the team cannot re-sign him to a salary greater than he would have received had the team exercised its option. In other words, teams can't decline an option year in order to get around the rookie salary scale and give the player more money. This applies to all types of signing, including the Bird exception, the Mid-Level exception, and cap room.
 
So let's take CJ as an example. If we don't pick up his option the most we could offer him this summer is about $2.5 mill. Any team with a MLE could double our offer and we would have no recourse.

So it is a major gamble to not pick up the options as if any of those 3 guys show to be a competent bench player then their value around the league likely exceeds what we would be capable of offering.
 
It's a little odd to me that anybody would give up on Leonard and yet be happy to keep CJ. Leonard is a year younger than CJ (he's only 22) and showing signs that all the work is paying off.

Everybody knows big men take longer to develop. When we drafted him we knew he was a project. Portland invested in him with a higher pick with the hope that by now we'd start seeing signs that he's got some real potential, and lo and behold he's actually done a few things in preseason.
 
I don't care much for CJ either. He's mediocre and Leonard is terrible.
I would rank our bench players:
Kaman
T-Rob
Barton
Blake
CJ
Freeland
Vic
Wright
Leonard
Crabbe

I would consider waiving Crabbe or Leonard or trade them for 2nd rounders, then sign Siva or Craft and maybe another SF. Victor is a PF.
 
I actually like Victor and Freeland better than CJ but their positions are deeper for us so CJ is ahead in the rotation.
 
Blazer4ever said:
I don't care much for CJ either. He's mediocre and Leonard is terrible.
I would rank our bench players:
Kaman
T-Rob
Barton
Blake
CJ
Freeland
Vic
Wright
Leonard
Crabbe

I would consider waiving Crabbe or Leonard or trade them for 2nd rounders, then sign Siva or Craft and maybe another SF. Victor is a PF.
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You overrate TRob and Barton. They have athletic ability, but don't really know how to pay within a system.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Hence me calling Robinson T-Devil several times last year...
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Yeah, not saying they shouldn't be traded though. Although sometimes, not even most times, you need those energy guys that teams aren't prepared to defend, to shake up their defense.

Is it something you can live without? Yeah I think so.
 
I've supported Meyers and still do. From what I've seen, I'd say he's still two seasons away from being 'solid'. I hope we keep Kaman for that second year to continue to tutor Meyers.

How long did it take Lopez and Przybilla to put it together? Or half of the big men in the league? How old were they, and how long had they been playing big man basketball? Longer than Meyers, I'm pretty sure.
 
BBert said:
I've supported Meyers and still do. From what I've seen, I'd say he's still two seasons away from being 'solid'. I hope we keep Kaman for that second year to continue to tutor Meyers.

How long did it take Lopez and Przybilla to put it together? Or half of the big men in the league? How old were they, and how long had they been playing big man basketball? Longer than Meyers, I'm pretty sure.
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I'm much more comfortable with waiting on Meyers with a player of Kaman's caliber being our back-up. I think my frustration was more our lack of bigs coming off the bench than Meyers not being ready.

My frustration has always been our back-up PG and Center in the past 2 seasons. That has really hurt our ball club. If Blake and Kaman can be the back-ups we need, im comfortable waiting for all our young players to develop.
 
I agree. It is a huge relief to have Chris Kaman. IMO getting Kaman is a score of Robin Lopez magnitude for our team.

Blake is no where near the upgrade at the backup PG position that Kaman is, but he'll play his role and run the offense, as a PG should.
 
It is time likes this where we have to rely on management to make the best decisions. Because some of the players we are talking about have not played enough for fans to know for sure. It is way too premature to evaluate CJ. So far we have seen him in Summer league and Preseason, in a lineup that I am not sure will be similar during the regular season. It is not always which individual is better, but rather who fits in best with the other players on the floor. I want to see more Blake/CJ and Lillard/CJ before deciding to give up on him.
 
The disdain for lack of immediate results from Meyers and CJ on the forums has been so unreasonable and illogical. We knew and were told Meyers was raw, we know and can provide data that shows the majority of young bigs take 3 to 4 years to become productive. CJ almost could be considered a rookie this year due to missing pre-season and half the season last year. Yet for some inexplicable reason people are ready to ship them to China in favor of making a go at free agency. How has free agency worked out for us? Disaster if you ask the same people ready to drop the young guys. Kaman and Blake were dull and uninspiring signings. Mo Williams was a mistake too.

Our best bet is to develop what we have the talent it's there it just needs to season. Then this summer we decide if we make a run at a 30yo Gasol and let one of Matthews or Lopez walk.
 
Schilly said:
The disdain for lack of immediate results from Meyers and CJ on the forums has been so unreasonable and illogical. We knew and were told Meyers was raw, we know and can provide data that shows the majority of young bigs take 3 to 4 years to become productive. CJ almost could be considered a rookie this year due to missing pre-season and half the season last year. Yet for some inexplicable reason people are ready to ship them to China in favor of making a go at free agency. How has free agency worked out for us? Disaster if you ask the same people ready to drop the young guys. Kaman and Blake were dull and uninspiring signings. Mo Williams was a mistake too.

Our best bet is to develop what we have the talent it's there it just needs to season. Then this summer we decide if we make a run at a 30yo Gasol and let one of Matthews or Lopez walk.
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Most of this.

Meyers was never drafted as a paint stopper/banger down low. If he matures into that, great. CJ was drafted at a time when we had our PGOTF and SGOTNow already set...almost a luxury.

And I don't quite understand why CJ is lumped in with Meyers and Robinson. He would only be signing his 3rd-year option, which is relative peanuts compared to the cap and cap space allotted. I semi-understand Robinson's 4.8M option being a cap-clogger if it's exercised, but not Leonard's $3.18M. For a young big with athleticism and some offensive skills, you can't buy that for 3.18M. Hell, JaVale McGee got 8 figures annually.

As for "every penny counts", color me as not impressed if we need that extra $2.2M in cap space that CJ's 3rd-year would take up. If it, Heaven Forbid, comes down to really, really needing that...give someone CJ as part of a sign-and-trade or dump him to someone with space they're not using for a future pick or something.
 
Schilly said:
The disdain for lack of immediate results from Meyers and CJ on the forums has been so unreasonable and illogical... CJ almost could be considered a rookie this year due to missing pre-season and half the season last year. Yet for some inexplicable reason people are ready to ship them to China in favor of making a go at free agency.
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I dunno - I think there are separate issues at play that you're trying to lump together into an untrue "popular forum opinion".

The "disdain" for Leonard and CJ comes from where they were picked in the draft. Personally I never thought CJ made sense for us. At BEST he's Lillard's twin...but sadly it's more like the movie Twins wherein Lillard is played by Arnold Schwarzenegger and CJ is played by Danny DeVito. I'm not willing to give up on CJ at this point because we have too much invested in him. I certainly don't think we should dump him for cap space - that's the worst thing we could possibly do. But we HAVE to make a concerted effort to develop him this season so that he'll have SOME sort of value to us - either on the court or in a trade.

As for Leonard - I'm fine with him being deep on the bench. If he someday turns into a player, that's great. If not, it's just another wasted draft pick. But having him on the roster isn't hurting the team.
 
BrianFromWA said:
Most of this.

Meyers was never drafted as a paint stopper/banger down low. If he matures into that, great. CJ was drafted at a time when we had our PGOTF and SGOTNow already set...almost a luxury.

And I don't quite understand why CJ is lumped in with Meyers and Robinson. He would only be signing his 3rd-year option, which is relative peanuts compared to the cap and cap space allotted. I semi-understand Robinson's 4.8M option being a cap-clogger if it's exercised, but not Leonard's $3.18M. For a young big with athleticism and some offensive skills, you can't buy that for 3.18M. Hell, JaVale McGee got 8 figures annually.

As for "every penny counts", color me as not impressed if we need that extra $2.2M in cap space that CJ's 3rd-year would take up. If it, Heaven Forbid, comes down to really, really needing that...give someone CJ as part of a sign-and-trade or dump him to someone with space they're not using for a future pick or something.
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I don't see why we have to pass on any of the players really. It would be a shame that any of them would be able to go to another team for a 10 mil cap savings.

I do understand the possibility of getting a max player this summer, but is that even a possibility without giving up on 2-3 of our free-agent starters? If we could grab a max player and keep 4 of our current starters, then I would be for the decision. If we need to give up more than that, I would rather just wait it out honestly.
 
Schilly said:
The disdain for lack of immediate results from Meyers and CJ on the forums has been so unreasonable and illogical. We knew and were told Meyers was raw, we know and can provide data that shows the majority of young bigs take 3 to 4 years to become productive. CJ almost could be considered a rookie this year due to missing pre-season and half the season last year. Yet for some inexplicable reason people are ready to ship them to China in favor of making a go at free agency. How has free agency worked out for us? Disaster if you ask the same people ready to drop the young guys. Kaman and Blake were dull and uninspiring signings. Mo Williams was a mistake too.

Our best bet is to develop what we have the talent it's there it just needs to season. Then this summer we decide if we make a run at a 30yo Gasol and let one of Matthews or Lopez walk.
Click to expand...

My disdain for Leonard, if you want to associate concern with disdain, is Leonard's lack on the defensive end. It has always been his defense. When I don't see him boxing out, or doing just the little things a big is called to do, then I'm concerned.

Guards get a little more leeway because their defense is a little more "keeping in front of their man". Centers and power forwards can still be serviceable, just boxing out and grabbing defensive boards. That has little to do with timing, and more to do with effort. When Leonard is doing this on a constant, you will hear zero complaints from me.
 
pretty much the only thing to do would be to decline trobs, its just too much money for a guy who is not in the rotation. 5 million for a towel waver is ridiculous if you can help it. also trob would become a rather sizeable expiring contract in this scenario.

that said, the same very well might be likely for nards and cj, but at this point, with their salaries being lower, they are worth more on non expiring contracts i would say.


its an interesting thought exercise, but i think the blazers are pretty close to being capped out anyway next year with cap holds, so having an expiring asset this year is probably more useful than the cap space next offseason. if they can turn trob +?? into a player with a contract next year, or someone who we will have bird rights for, it could be a useful team building tool.
 
If we decline we also kill their trade value beyond being a expiring contract. The receiving team would have the same limited ability to resign those players. So if the other team had interest in them they would only get say a half season then have to hope they can keep them for the 2.5mil for CJ or 3mil for Meyers. Trob is different due to his salary size.
 
EVERYONE has given up on Biebs. We drafted him to be a center, and now everyone has decided he'll never be that, which is what some of us have been saying from the beginning. Playing PF allows him to float out to the 3 point line and he's showing some success there, good for him. It MAY be possible for him to improve some of the worst decision-making I've ever seen, time will tell. We'll know he's made it when MM actually put a d at the end of him name :)

External factors seem to be determing our young player's fates. The outside-shooting Hawes deciding against Portland basically doomed the inside-playing TRob (who would be a great complement to Hawes) and gave the outside-shooting Biebs some life as a good complement to Kaman.
 
Schilly said:
If we decline we also kill their trade value beyond being a expiring contract. The receiving team would have the same limited ability to resign those players. So if the other team had interest in them they would only get say a half season then have to hope they can keep them for the 2.5mil for CJ or 3mil for Meyers. Trob is different due to his salary size.
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thats basically exactly what i just said, you sir are a gentleman and a baller
 
I'm a big CJ fan. I think he can be special for this team. He's go the mental makeup to succeed in this league.

Price might be too high for T-Rob.

Probably should pick up Meyers. He's a project.
 
i have to believe that the reason trob got zero play this PRE is so the blazers could make this an easy decision, if he randomly put up 14 rpg they might have been in a tougher spot, if not internally, definitely publicly
 
3RA1N1AC said:
i have to believe that the reason trob got zero play this PRE is so the blazers could make this an easy decision, if he randomly put up 14 rpg they might have been in a tougher spot, if not internally, definitely publicly
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Agreed. I think the team likes TRob but this is purely financial and they are trying to sneak him in under the radar after not picking up his option. They can still sign him to his option price next summer so just depends on if he gets a better offer.
 
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