Detroit Revisited........

[THE HCP]

There was a thread on here I started awhile back about how Detroit has basically become a 3rd world country. I posted a link showing that there is not a major retail grocery store inside the ENTIRE CITY LIMITS!!!!! But this story shows how down and out this city is. I can't believe this is going on and we never really hear much about how bad things are there.

http://detnews.com/article/20090128...goes-on-around-body-found-in-vacant-warehouse

 

[THE HCP]

http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit/index.html

 

[THE HCP]

Here are some statistics for you:
Detroit is a city founded in 1701 and at one point had a population 1.8 million. Today, there are less than half of number.
Geographically, 55% of the cities area is abandoned.
In 1950, Detroit had the highest median income in the country; today it is 66 out of 68.
Per capita, Detroit spends over $11,000 per year to educate a student, compared with $9600 nationally, and $6600 for private schools, yet it graduates on 21% of students.
Detroit's public education system is run completely by the Teacher's Union
Detroit's population is roughly 88% "non-white".
1 in every 47 Detroit residents are homeless.
A black man dropping out of high school will faces a 73% rate of unemployment. He will have a 60% chance of going to jail before he leaves his 20's.
Only 56% of the eligible workforce in Detroit is employed (Labor Stats) of those employed, 17.2% work for the government.
To hire someone legally in Detroit, you must pay the mandated minimum wage of $10/hour - thus businesses can not afford to open and run businesses there, so the leave.
47% of households made less than $35,000/year; only 1% had incomes over $200,000.

 

[THE HCP]

Sorry guys, OT bound!

 

[THE HCP]

http://www.kevinbauman.com/100abandonedhouses/

 

[THE HCP]

Shit, must be August! This place is as abandoned as Detroit. WHere are all the mods to move this?

 

[THE HCP]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1925796,00.html

 

[THE HCP]

Sorry, but I find this fascinating that in this day and age that this is happening.

 

[Sug]

Normally when you see a guy having a conversation with himself you assume he is crazy...

 

[maxiep]

[video=youtube;19v5Kjmc8FI]

 

[HailBlazers]

Nothing at all funny about the rise and fall of Detroit. ^^^

But...

This thread is Hilarious

 

[toutlaw25]

Dateline had a really good special on this a couple months back. Sad.........

[video=youtube;4Mo4RdtweeA]

 

[toutlaw25]

edit............not sure what's more sad, the state of Detroit or the fact HCP is so pathetic he makes posts about his own posts.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

put your hands up for Detroit!

 

[maxiep]

put your hands up for Detroit!

...because you're going to be held up in Motown sooner or later...

 

[THE HCP]

I was not talking to myself, I was trying to discuss a non basketball topic in a mature manner. I see I've come to the wrong place for an educated debate. I wish you guys would grow up and act in a dignified manner like THE HCP!

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Hey, here in Flint we go on VACATION to Detroit.

[video=youtube;o35qBD6Fh88]

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

...because you're going to be held up in Motown sooner or later...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

To a certain degree, unions and corrupt city government share the lions share of the blame for what happened to that area of the country.

 

[THE HCP]

Hey, here in Flint we go on VACATION to Detroit.

[video=youtube;o35qBD6Fh88]

This guy I work with when I'm out that way graduated from college about 5 or 6 years ago and he bought a 2500 sq ft house. 4 bd. 3 bath................ in Flint........... for 35,000!!!!!! House is in great shape in a nice neighborhood! Blows me away!

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

Reminds me of my first visit to Buffalo.

When I went there some years back, I was taken back by how much of the city of Buffalo is now just abandoned. I know Detroit may have other issues. But as far as a town that was once a bustling steel city with quite a life, it was strange to see it outlive the size it had grown to. There were big office buildings (not high rise, but still like 8-10 stories) that were just abandoned with the windows broken out and graffiti on them. There were abandoned stripped cars literally on the shoulder of the main road, that looked to have been there for months if not years with the rust. Driving through that section of Buffalo was like driving straight into a Hollywood post apocalyptic movie set.

 

[Paxil]

To a certain degree, unions and corrupt city government share the lions share of the blame for what happened to that area of the country.

Unions are just a collection of workers... and the workers themselves are responsible for what the union does... and I would agree that in some cases unions definitely did themselves in. My father worked at Boeing just about his entire life. He had great benefits... and maybe at some point they were against injustice... but after I started working at Boeing also (non union) I saw a completely different picture.

I saw lazy workers that were more interested in fighting the company to do less work or saving jobs, than to helping the company be more efficient and profitable. Most of them would put tools in a machine that was programmed to do certain work… then press a button and read a book. I long time ago it was a much more manual process I am sure. Whenever the company would try to do something like get them to press the button on two machines at once… they would fight it tooth and nail.

And then there was the striking… ever 4-8 years they would strike just because it was cool to do. Shut the whole manufacturing down for a few months for exactly the same benefits they would have had without the strike. Not to mention that for people who didn’t finish high school… they were making some good money… many of them approaching 6 figures with OT… and oh yeah… there would be OT… because they would all call in sick on Friday… (or just do almost no work) so they would have to be brought in on the weekends where they made 2-3 times pay.

Anyway… I think the company eventually got tired of the routine and when it came time to big on the future… the 787 work… the unions finally lost big time and most of the work was outsourced. The unions I am sure would scream injustice! Travesty! But damn… you have to have workers that are interested in being productive. More than once I heard works complain with stuff like “I ain’t touching no computer!” They were too stubborn to learn new skills to make themselves competitive. But the bottom line comes down to that there are people with the same education level elsewhere that will do the same job for cheaper, the jobs will eventually move.

ANYway… Detroit I definitely see as some place that had a lot of manual jobs that would eventually be replaced by robots and automation… and that is sad. There are still jobs… but the jobs are different and you have to be able to go with the flow… update your skills. To me it just seems like common sense… but to my father who had been doing the same thing for 40 years… he fought any change tooth and nail.

Wow… long winded way to say I agree… unions do share some blame… but the workers are the union.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I had a connection last summer on my way to Toronto. So I did not see the actual city. But flying in low over the surrounding area you can't help but understand why everyone with money migrated to the the extended suburbs. With all the lakes and trees and large "estates" it is really a beautiful area. (In the summer)

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

I just had a talk with my boss's boss. He was born & raised in Detroit, went to ND and then worked in Detroit until he was 34 before moving out west. Here are his thoughts on how Detroit got to be what it is today:

1) Unions. When they kept forcing salaries and benefits way past what was reasonable (his brother makes over $100/hr in the UAW, and people can have a full retirement at age 48...) the auto manufacturers had to cut too many corners and it was a slippery slide down. Work was out sourced, all non essential personnel was laid off as unions yellow-dogged hard, costing tens of millions more to the companies. Now, whole plants had to be moved to further cut non personnel. In addition, aggressive unions caused hundreds of businesses to move or shut down with outrageous demands and constant work stoppages.

2) Changes in government. He makes it clear that minorities are NOT corrupt, per se, but that the transition to minority government was so swift and on such a large scale that they had no experience in how to govern. It was a 'learn as one goes' thing and corruption became the order of the day. That corruption grew and grew and spread out to the point that the system was too corrupt to change. This cost hundreds of millions of dollars to the area yearly.

3) The best & brightest left town. When things started tanking the best & brightest of the core business leaders left the area. This created more unemployment, that led to more corruption, that led to more decayed neighborhoods...

4) Location. It's hard to locate new business in an area that has such harsh winters. Moving goods and services becomes more expensive and time consuming.

Anyway, those are thoughts from someone who grew up and worked there.

 

[mook]

4) Location. It's hard to locate new business in an area that has such harsh winters. Moving goods and services becomes more expensive and time consuming.

Anyway, those are thoughts from someone who grew up and worked there.

I think this one is the real key. The only reason industry blossomed there in the first place was access to steel, coal and the shipping lanes of the Great Lakes. Those logistical reasons were great for the auto industry, but not exactly big draws for modern growth industries (tech, finance, medicine). If our auto industry had emerged in Florida or Southern California, all the other problems you cited would be overcome. Miami wouldn't look like a war zone just because the auto industry collapsed.

The parts of the country that grow have access to quality-of-life resources. Major cultural centers, beaches, sun, skiing, hiking. The areas that don't wither on the vine, and really they should. Why would anybody in their right mind encourage growth in Detroit when there are more fun ways to live in NYC, Portland, Denver, etc.?

If you have a highly productive part of your garden, and the neighborhood cats suddenly decide to shit all over it, and you have a better plot of land elsewhere on your property, should you really waste time fighting the cats because you used to get good vegetables out of that plot of land years ago? Or should you shrug and just garden where it's easy and nice and doesn't smell like cat shit?

 

[Paxil]

Miami wouldn't look like a war zone just because the auto industry collapsed.

I visited Miami once and parts did look like a war zone. =) I don't know if the trash collectors were on strike or what... but there were 50 foot mounds of garbage piled in all the parking lots everywhere.

 

[Idog1976]

Sorry, but I find this fascinating that in this day and age that this is happening.

Look up East St. Louis. Make Detroit look like paradise. Or at least it's comparable and has been that way for a lot longer.

 

[Idog1976]

To a certain degree, unions and corrupt city government share the lions share of the blame for what happened to that area of the country.

Right not globalization and the CEO's who made the decision to outsource jobs over seas. They are completely blameless for moving jobs out of America and to our enemy China. Very patriotic those CEO's. If CEO's can get together and figure out how to fuck over workers, then workers can get together and figure out how to get a decent slice of the pie. Without Unions we'd still have child labor, 7 day work weeks and 12 hour days.

Were high wages part of the problem? Perhaps, but the greed of big companies weighs FAR more heavily into things.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Right not globalization and the CEO's who made the decision to outsource jobs over seas. They are completely blameless for moving jobs out of America and to our enemy China. Very patriotic those CEO's. If CEO's can get together and figure out how to fuck over workers, then workers can get together and figure out how to get a decent slice of the pie. Without Unions we'd still have child labor, 7 day work weeks and 12 hour days.

Were high wages part of the problem? Perhaps, but the greed of big companies weighs FAR more heavily into things.

Uh, I mentioned that in my second post.

 

[Idog1976]

Unions are just a collection of workers... and the workers themselves are responsible for what the union does... and I would agree that in some cases unions definitely did themselves in. My father worked at Boeing just about his entire life. He had great benefits... and maybe at some point they were against injustice... but after I started working at Boeing also (non union) I saw a completely different picture.

I saw lazy workers that were more interested in fighting the company to do less work or saving jobs, than to helping the company be more efficient and profitable. Most of them would put tools in a machine that was programmed to do certain work… then press a button and read a book. I long time ago it was a much more manual process I am sure. Whenever the company would try to do something like get them to press the button on two machines at once… they would fight it tooth and nail.

And then there was the striking… ever 4-8 years they would strike just because it was cool to do. Shut the whole manufacturing down for a few months for exactly the same benefits they would have had without the strike. Not to mention that for people who didn’t finish high school… they were making some good money… many of them approaching 6 figures with OT… and oh yeah… there would be OT… because they would all call in sick on Friday… (or just do almost no work) so they would have to be brought in on the weekends where they made 2-3 times pay.

Anyway… I think the company eventually got tired of the routine and when it came time to big on the future… the 787 work… the unions finally lost big time and most of the work was outsourced. The unions I am sure would scream injustice! Travesty! But damn… you have to have workers that are interested in being productive. More than once I heard works complain with stuff like “I ain’t touching no computer!” They were too stubborn to learn new skills to make themselves competitive. But the bottom line comes down to that there are people with the same education level elsewhere that will do the same job for cheaper, the jobs will eventually move.

ANYway… Detroit I definitely see as some place that had a lot of manual jobs that would eventually be replaced by robots and automation… and that is sad. There are still jobs… but the jobs are different and you have to be able to go with the flow… update your skills. To me it just seems like common sense… but to my father who had been doing the same thing for 40 years… he fought any change tooth and nail.

Wow… long winded way to say I agree… unions do share some blame… but the workers are the union.

For every example of a corrupt union with lazy workers I can point to 10,000 businesses that treat their employees like shit and squeeze every cent of labor out of them. I don't dispute that there are lazy workers in various unionized businesses and that's a sad statement about America today, an attitude of entitlement. That said it's simply the pendulum swinging the other way from 100's of years of extreme exploitation of workers. The pendulum needs to swing back and America has to get a blue collar hard working mentality back. Unfortunately, things will likely have to get much worse before they get better.

CEO's getting such ridiculous wages for sending jobs to China etc. isn't noble either. The fact is America has gone way downhill as far as personal integrity and work ethic regardless of the strata of society. We're gonna learn the hard way what results from that.