Develop Bayless and Batum

[Hank The Dwarf]

Andre Miller and Gerald Wallace cannot shoot.

They are not good fits in Nate's offense.

 

[oldmangrouch]

People need to wake up.

Stern has made his intentions clear. The players will be locked out in the summer of 2011. The 11-12 season will be canceled. When (if) the NBA returns, it will not be the same league.

Stern's express goal is to emulate the NFL system. He wants a hard cap (no MLE, Bird rights, etc). He wants an end to guaranteed and/or long term deals. He wants large scale player turn-over every season. He is prepared to sacrifice the quality of the product in the name of "parity" and profitability.

What does that have to do with this discussion? It means that any move not intended to make the Blazers contenders in the next 2 seasons is a waste of time.

 

[Minstrel]

We came back from double digits deficits in 18 games, that's not exactly a bankable, repeatable feat.

Why does having a number of come-backs represent luck? Would losing a lot of games that the team lead big in the first half count as "bad luck?" I think the number of big come-backs represented the team's uneven play, not overperformance. Their focus was uneven, so they were particularly susceptible to runs...both good and bad. That meant falling behind in a lot of games but also playing well later and overcoming deficits they dug for themselves.

They don't need a "bankable, repeatable" skill for making big come-backs. Just being more consistent, playing better the whole game and not digging big holes for themselves in the first place will remove the need for a lot of big come-backs.

If anything I think the team vastly overachieved, and unless some moves are made I'm not sure you can even count on getting back to that 54 win level

I don't agree with that at all. Last year, Portland won a lot of close games and were lucky with their point distribution. That was shown by their point differential not being consistent with their record. Their record was "too high" for their point differential. This year, Portland was consistently #2 in point differential in the West, behind only the Lakers. Their record was no mirage, they were legitimately excellent.

I think perceptions are being skewed by their "poor" performance in the playoffs. They were clearly unprepared for playoff intensity and got bombed at home in game 1. Had that not happened, they'd have had a chance to win the series against a tough Houston team (a Houston team that won 2 of 4 games against LA without Yao). I think Portland underperformed in the playoffs, not overperformed during the season.

I think Portland was a legitimate 54 win team, and they should see a lot of net improvement from Oden, Aldridge, Batum, Rudy and Bayless. I don't know if that'll push them up to 60 wins (every marginal win at this point is difficult), but I think they'll be somewhere in the 55-60 win range and a much tougher out in the playoffs.

This is without moves from Pritchard. I do hope he makes a good, significant move (because he has resources to use, so he should maximize those), but without knowing what he'll do I can't factor that in.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Andre Miller and Gerald Wallace cannot shoot.

They are not good fits in Nate's offense.

Correction - they can't shoot the 3. Both, thoughout their career's, have shot very well from 2-point range. Both have the ability to create for themselves, and others. Both can penetrate and draw fouls. This ability is critical in the play-offs - and it also opens up the perimeter for our jumpshooters.

In addition to ~ 17.5 PPG, Wallace has averaged about 7 REB, 3 AST and 2 STL over the last 3 seasons. And he gets to the line about 6 times per game.

Miller, in addition to about 16 PPG and 7 APG, also contributes about 4 REB and 1.4 STL. He also gets to the line about 5 times per game.

They are both excellent players - at both ends of the court. Wallace had a PER = 18.6 and WS = 9.2 this season. Miller was at PER = 18.7 and WS = 8.6. Those numbers were significantly higher than anyone on the Blazers this year not named Roy or Aldridge (in fact, they were very close to LaMarcus' numbers of PER = 19.1and WS = 8.9) Any coach, including Nate, would love to have them.

BNM

 

[Hank The Dwarf]

Correction - they can't shoot the 3. Both, thoughout their career's, have shot very well from 2-point range. Both have the ability to create for themselves, and others. Both can penetrate and draw fouls. This ability is critical in the play-offs - and it also opens up the perimeter for our jumpshooters.

In addition to ~ 17.5 PPG, Wallace has averaged about 7 REB, 3 AST and 2 STL over the last 3 seasons. And he gets to the line about 6 times per game.

Miller, in addition to about 16 PPG and 7 APG, also contributes about 4 REB and 1.4 STL. He also gets to the line about 5 times per game.

They are both excellent players - at both ends of the court. Wallace had a PER = 18.6 and WS = 9.2 this season. Miller was at PER = 18.7 and WS = 8.6. Those numbers were significantly higher than anyone on the Blazers this year not named Roy or Aldridge (in fact, they were very close to LaMarcus' numbers of PER = 19.1and WS = 8.9) Any coach, including Nate, would love to have them.

BNM

do you really think your projected lineup of:

Andre Miller
Brandon Roy
Gerald Wallace
LMA
Oden (aka the big disappointment)


would be a good idea considering the offense our coach runs?

Do you think Nate is capable of running a different style of offense?

If you answer yes to either of those questions - you haven't been paying attention.

 

[Reep]

No Bayless doesn't get lost on defense, that is complete BS. In fact I would go so far as to say, he is hands down the Blazers beset defender at PG even in his first year. Bayless struggles have always been not being at "Game speed" during his first few minutes of play each time he does get minutes, and spacing on the offensive end. Not the defensive end. I do not know what the hell you have been watching, but his problems are definitly not defensive.

I'm talking team defense, not man defense. He is solid man to man. Go back and watch the games from this season. You will continually see teammates yelling at Bayless and point to where he is supposed to be. I like the kid, but seriously there were many times when guys had to tell him where to be.

 

[Sinobas]

I agree that developing them is important. So I think we should cut Steve Blake, trade Sergio and sign a better PG (Andre Miller).

 

[mook]

do you really think your projected lineup of:

Andre Miller
Brandon Roy
Gerald Wallace
LMA
Oden

I have to admit that Hank has a point here. That's a lineup with only one three point shooter (Roy), and really do we want to use Roy in that capacity?

If you go with Miller, you need a SF who is a legit three point shooter.

Ron Artest and Andre Miller make so much sense for this team. Batum could learn so much from Artest, and Bayless could learn so much from Miller.

 

[Hank The Dwarf]

If you ask a question such as that and then make such a derogatory statement, you are not open minded and there will be no convincing you. Whether someone agrees with you or not, you're the S2 equivalent of Ann Coulter or Maureen Dowd, a partisan hack who wants to speak into an echo chamber. You have illustrated no capacity for reasonable debate. Why the fuck would anyone want to answer your questions? You're like Bill O'reily, only interested in hearing yourself talk.

you are waiving the white flag - cause you know I'm right.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Frankly I think we got as many "lucky bounces" as a team can get last year. We came back from double digits deficits in 18 games, that's not exactly a bankable, repeatable feat. If anything I think the team vastly overachieved, and unless some moves are made I'm not sure you can even count on getting back to that 54 win level -- even with organic growth of certain players like Batum, Bayless, Oden, et al.

The lucky (or unlucky bounce) I can't get out of my head are the last games of the season with houston losing and SA somehow pulling out a win. If a free throw is made or a desperation three missed . . . we play NO instead of Houston.

 

[EPIC FAIL GILDERHUS]

you are waiving the white flag - cause you know I'm right.

what, the white flag couldn't cut it in crunch time? missed too many FT's? is that why he is "waiving" it?

 

[Hank The Dwarf]

Can you read?

I wasn't involved in the debate and you have no idea what side I am on. I just jumped in to point out that your ass-hattery is approaching critical mass. There are people who read this board who don't know what a strawman is or that the debate tactic you tried to employ is illegitimate. These types of arguments should be exposed as fraudulent at best and malicious at worst so that some teenager reading this forum can see how your tactic just makes you a douchebag and hopefully won't employ it themselves.
One reason I respect barfo, Ed O., Niko, and Minstrel, even when I disagree with them, is that I have never seen them use such tactics and they call people on it when others do.

Wow. Nice meltdown.

I was having a reasonable discussion on how certain players would fit on this team and with this coach. At no point did I cross any sort of line in my discussion.

You're wound pretty tight little guy.

 

[Hank The Dwarf]

Nate has always ran an offense designed around getting long jumpers - and he always will.

Adding two starters (miller - wallace) that cannot shoot from long distance, replacing two guys (blake - outlaw) who shot well above 40% from downtown is a bad idea.

admit that I am right or I shall ridicule you further.

 

[Reep]

Hank and Hurra, can you guys take this to PMs? I keep looking for content in this post and it is getting burried by your pissing contest. Take it off line.

 

[Da_O]

This team desperately needs another player that can create for themselves and get to the FT line.

I like the get Miller - tutor Bayless idea. Getting Gerald Wallace is pretty unlikely.

 

[Hank The Dwarf]

Hank and Hurra, can you guys take this to PMs? I keep looking for content in this post and it is getting burried by your pissing contest. Take it off line.

You want to Cyber with me?

I'll be the pizza delivery boy - you go get in the shower.

 

[Boob-No-More]

do you really think your projected lineup of:

Andre Miller
Brandon Roy
Gerald Wallace
LMA
Oden (aka the big disappointment)


would be a good idea considering the offense our coach runs?

Do you think Nate is capable of running a different style of offense?

If you answer yes to either of those questions - you haven't been paying attention.

Yes, I have been paying attention, thank you. I've also been watching, playing and coaching the game of basketball long enough to know that there are many more variations on the high post pick and roll offense than simply finding the open 3-point shooter.

For example, I found it maddening to watch Greg Oden regularly set the high pick and then roll down the lane wide open and our guards totally unable, or unwilling to get him the ball. An experienced PG like Andre Miller (or Jason Kidd) would get our 7' super strong, athletic young center the ball in those situations for the monster dunk. It was frustrating as a fan to see our guards consistently miss Oden in those situations, and Oden looked frustrated by it at times, too. I'd like to see Oden get the ball 3 or 4 times a game in those situations - not 3 or 4 times a season.

Miller can also drive the lane off the high post pick and roll and draw the help defense and then find the open man, either Aldridge or Wallace, for the wide open mid-range jumper, or better yet running the baseline for the dunk. Miller also has the ability to draw fouls on opposing big men in these situations. He averaged 5 FTA/G this season, compared to 1.1 FTA/G for Steve Blake. Blake is not a penetrator, and he does not draw fouls. There is a reason he spends so much time camped out at the 3-point line. It's all he can do.

Miller and Wallace are big upgrades over our current starting PG and SF. I'd glady take one, or both. They would give us additional reliable scoring options beyond Roy and Aldridge, improve our rebounding, draw more fouls on our opponents, and make us much better defensively. And if you're happy with our defense (especially at PG), maybe it's you who haven't been paying attention.

BNM

 

[oldmangrouch]

I have a question.

Is a certain poster in this thread just a bored troll, or is he a sock-puppet for the folks who run O-Live?

Even when he is (arguably) right in his opinions, his approach is designed to create disruption, not actual discussion.

 

[Wheels]

I have a question.

Is a certain poster in this thread just a bored troll, or is he a sock-puppet for the folks who run O-Live?

Even when he is (arguably) right in his opinions, his approach is designed to create disruption, not actual discussion.

He's just as hated over at O-live I promise you he does not speak for the majority of that place.

 

[andalusian]

We lost in the 1st round - we are not serious title contenders.

Correct. That's why we need to bring new FA to take us to that next level. You seem to contradict yourself...

 

[Hank The Dwarf]

He's just as hated over at O-live I promise you he does not speak for the majority of that place.

"Forum Legend" - Eric Marentette, talking about me.

Stop hating.

 

[Hank The Dwarf]

Correct. That's why we need to bring new FA to take us to that next level. You seem to contradict yourself...

Incorrect.

We dont need to overspend on overrated players who put up decent numbers on crappy teams and DONT fit the style of basketball that our coach will demand we play.

Bayless and Batum are going to be very good players - there is no need to try to artificially speed up our timeline.

 

[Hank The Dwarf]

Yes, I have been paying attention, thank you. I've also been watching, playing and coaching the game of basketball long enough to know that there are many more variations on the high post pick and roll offense than simply finding the open 3-point shooter.

For example, I found it maddening to watch Greg Oden regularly set the high pick and then roll down the lane wide open and our guards totally unable, or unwilling to get him the ball. An experienced PG like Andre Miller (or Jason Kidd) would get our 7' super strong, athletic young center the ball in those situations for the monster dunk. It was frustrating as a fan to see our guards consistently miss Oden in those situations, and Oden looked frustrated by it at times, too. I'd like to see Oden get the ball 3 or 4 times a game in those situations - not 3 or 4 times a season.

Miller can also drive the lane off the high post pick and roll and draw the help defense and then find the open man, either Aldridge or Wallace, for the wide open mid-range jumper, or better yet running the baseline for the dunk. Miller also has the ability to draw fouls on opposing big men in these situations. He averaged 5 FTA/G this season, compared to 1.1 FTA/G for Steve Blake. Blake is not a penetrator, and he does not draw fouls. There is a reason he spends so much time camped out at the 3-point line. It's all he can do.

Miller and Wallace are big upgrades over our current starting PG and SF. I'd glady take one, or both. They would give us additional reliable scoring options beyond Roy and Aldridge, improve our rebounding, draw more fouls on our opponents, and make us much better defensively. And if you're happy with our defense (especially at PG), maybe it's you who haven't been paying attention.

BNM

Oden is not a good offensive player. He has hands of stone and feet of concrete. The sooner you realize that Oden is going to be a role player for us the better off you'll be.

have a nice afternoon.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Adding two starters (miller - wallace) that cannot shoot from long distance, replacing two guys (blake - outlaw) who shot well above 40% from downtown is a bad idea.

Outlaw isn't a starter, but for sake of argument, I'll pretend he is. He didn't shoot well above 40% from downtown. His 3FG% was 0.377 - decent, but not great.

Now, how about we replace those two one-dimensional players with two starters who can:

1) Get to the rim and score in the paint

2) Draw fouls (Miller = 5.0 FTA/G, Wallace = 6.4 FTA/G vs. Blake = 1.1 FTA/G, Outlaw = 3.0 FTA/G) - that's an extra 7.3 FTA/G

3) Pass the ball (Miller = 6.5 APG, Wallace = 2.7 APG vs. Blake = 5.0 APG, Outlaw = 1.0 APG) - that's an extra 3.2 APG

4) Rebound (Miller = 4.5 RPG, Wallace = 7.8 RPG vs. Blake = 2.5 RPG, Outlaw = 4.1 RPG) - that's a difference of 5.7 RPG

5) Play DEFENSE - Miller and Wallace are both above average defenders. Blake and Outlaw are both below average defenders.

You've latched onto the one, and only, area where Blake and Outlaw are better than Miller and Wallace. Time to look at the big picture. Miller and Wallace are SO much better at every other aspect of the game, it's not even close. Think about that for a minute. Think about what wins games in the NBA (better players) and what wins games in the play-offs (rebounding and defense). Now, do you honestly think the Blazers would be better off starting Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw than Andre Miller and Gerald Wallace?

BNM

 

[Wheels]

Incorrect.

We dont need to overspend on overrated players who put up decent numbers on crappy teams and DONT fit the style of basketball that our coach will demand we play.

Bayless and Batum are going to be very good players - there is no need to try to artificially speed up our timeline.

Where do you get this from? How many PG's has Nate had who could competently run the fast break sometime AND play defense? Sergio can run the break.. but yeah his efense is lacking something. Miller can do both.. lets see what he does with a PG who can do that stuff.

 

[andalusian]

Incorrect.

We dont need to overspend on overrated players who put up decent numbers on crappy teams and DONT fit the style of basketball that our coach will demand we play.

Bayless and Batum are going to be very good players - there is no need to try to artificially speed up our timeline.

Excuse me - the one trying to speed up the timeline is you - This team has a top-10 player leading, an up and coming young inside-out player in LMA and is a monster rebounding team - this sounds like a team that can make a serious deep run in the playoffs now - and is only another good guy attacking the rim/controlling the tempo and defending the perimeter from getting there. The speeding up the timeline issue is you thinking JB/Batum are ready to be major cogs on such a deep-run team - they are not. Nothing bad will happen if we get an upgrade at PG (starter or backup) and allow Bayless to fight for minutes with Blake or the new backup PG for one or two more years while we contend... Batum will get his minutes anyway.

I personally do not see a real reason to get a Gerald Wallace type - but fixing out backup PG issue will be big. Unlike you - I am not ready to declare JB ready for it and it seems rather silly not to try and upgrade our PG position now and see how it moves along.

If you can get a Miller as your starting PG and Blake as your backup - you can make a deep run next year. If Bayless proves he can replace Blake as the backup during the year - you move Blake at the trade deadline (expiring, should be attractive) or let him expire next year.

This is too good a team to put a stop-sign before Roy/LMA and company to wait for JB to develop. If he can do it on the fly - it's great - but it would be stupid not to upgrade our PG situation, hopefully with our starting PG and moving Blake to backup until JB proves he deserves the minutes - or another backup to replace Sergio and allow him and JB to fight it out...

 

[Boob-No-More]

Oden is not a good offensive player. He has hands of stone and feet of concrete. The sooner you realize that Oden is going to be a role player for us the better off you'll be.

I disagree with you about Oden's potential. But even Joel Przybilla can catch a pass by the rim and throw it down. When you're 7' tall you don't need to be a "good offensive player" to dunk the ball when your momentum is already carrying you towards the basket.

BNM

 

[MARIS61]

No Bayless doesn't get lost on defense, that is complete BS. In fact I would go so far as to say, he is hands down the Blazers beset defender at PG even in his first year. Bayless struggles have always been not being at "Game speed" during his first few minutes of play each time he does get minutes, and spacing on the offensive end. Not the defensive end. I do not know what the hell you have been watching, but his problems are definitly not defensive.

Nate has stated Bayless "is lost in our defensive sets".

 

[Boob-No-More]

Nate has stated Bayless "is lost in our defensive sets".

Unlike Sergio, who we all know is a lockdown defender...

[video=youtube;bTuojB41iU8]

Or, maybe that's knockdown defender...

BNM

 

[STOMP]

one who can actually attack when needed. The 3 point line will have to be defended tighter with Webster, they cant just leave him like they do Batum.

for his career Webster is a 37% 3 point shooter
for his career Batum is a 37% 3 point shooter

STOMP