Free Agent Devonte Graham

[Phatguysrule]

Any good player will increase the odds of us winning games. Sharpe (when healthy) will also contribute to this problem.

Trust me, we're plenty bad enough to get the #1 pick.

I'd rather not have him hogging the ball and showing the young guys you can get paid for refusing to play defense 30 minutes per game.

There is literally no reason to keep him. He can't help us compete.

 

[Tince]

I'd rather not have him hogging the ball and showing the young guys you can get paid for refusing to play defense 30 minutes per game.

There is literally no reason to keep him. He can't help us compete.

If that were the case, that would be something to take into consideration. Luckily, it's not.

 

[Phatguysrule]

If that were the case, that would be something to take into consideration. Luckily, it's not.

Except you haven't given even one.

 

[Tince]

Except you haven't given even one.

Given one...?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

It's certainly possible, as is the alternative.

Yes, all theoretical outcomes are possible. But let's not be disingenuous and pretend that you and I don't both know which is (much) more likely.

 

[Tince]

Yes, all theoretical outcomes are possible. But let's not be disingenuous and pretend that you and I don't both know which is (much) more likely.

I think Ant is good enough to start on a contending team. I think there are 100+ players good enough to start on a contending team in the right situation. Unfortunately, most players don't find the right situation.

I think the Blazers have a long list of issues to getting back in contention, and I'd put Ant being on the roster very very low on that list.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I think Ant is good enough to start on a contending team. I think there are 100+ players good enough to start on a contending team in the right situation. Unfortunately, most players don't find the right situation.

I think the Blazers have a long list of issues to getting back in contention, and I'd put Ant being on the roster very very low on that list.

Sinons hasn't played complete enough yet to play at that level. He's never going to do that here. Perhaps if he goes to a San Antonio with a group who demands that kind of defense. But it'll never happen here. We can't put that kind of team around him with our current assets. And we can't get a Coach with enough gravitas to to enforce that kind of play without having that kind of team.

The biggest and most immediate issue the Blazers have is needing more draft capital. Ant is high on the list of assets that can bring that (as well as hurt that goal).

I sincerely hope Portland doesn't try to keep Ant or Grant deep into this season. That would be a huge mistake.

 

[blazerkor]

If Ant were on a team that desperately needed a dynamic perimeter scorer who can create his own shot and that team had more than just 4 really good to great defenders to put around him and a larger than average facilitator, I think Ant could start on a championship team. He is a specialist that has to be covered for on defense but he's also never had the luxury of playing with a great defensive team around him.

I think if Orlando is on a championship trajectory then that would be the kind of team that would start Ant and benefit from what he brings to the game. I don't know how much of a liability Ant is if he has a coach who is capable of getting him to play within the structure of a functional offense and has great team defense around him. We haven't seen him with either of those things his entire career. Terry and Chauncey are player first coaches who in their cases means they enable certain guys to do whatever the fuck they want to.

Ant obviously isn't great for a team trying to develop young talent when he's given a permanent green light to iso in an offense that's supposed to be the opposite of that and a free pass for shit defense. He should be traded. Grant should be traded. Both should have value to teams trying to win now, even if in Ant's case it turns out to be a microwave type of player off of the bench. Both are ball stoppers just like ZBo and that doesn't work well when you're trying to get your young players reps. Grant will not be this valuable by the time we get back to winning (whenever the fuck that is) and Ant is just a terrible fit as a guy who hogs the ball and puts young players in bad situations defensively.

 

[Tince]

Sinons hasn't played complete enough yet to play at that level. He's never going to do that here. Perhaps if he goes to a San Antonio with a group who demands that kind of defense. But it'll never happen here. We can't put that kind of team around him with our current assets. And we can't get a Coach with enough gravitas to to enforce that kind of play without having that kind of team.

The biggest and most immediate issue the Blazers have is needing more draft capital. Ant is high on the list of assets that can bring that (as well as hurt that goal).

I sincerely hope Portland doesn't try to keep Ant or Grant deep into this season. That would be a huge mistake.

The main reason Simons is unlikely to play at a championship contending level is that Portland is unlikely to build a championship roster in the next 10 years. And none of that has to do with him being on the roster.

Scoot and Sharpe are highly unlikely to contend for championships in Portland, but that doesn't mean we should trade them.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The main reason Simons is unlikely to play at a championship contending level is that Portland is unlikely to build a championship roster in the next 10 years. And none of that has to do with him being on the roster.

Scoot and Sharpe are highly unlikely to contend for championships in Portland, but that doesn't mean we should trade them.

If you can't see the difference in potential between Simons and Scoot/Sharpe then you just don't want to.

That's fine.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Simons would be great if he could play defense.
Scoot would be great if he could shoot (and not turn the ball over).
Shae would be great if he could play defense and stay healthy.

All have barriers to greatness.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Simons would be great if he could play defense.
Scoot would be great if he could shoot (and not turn the ball over).
Shae would be great if he could play defense and stay healthy.

All have barriers to greatness.

All can do the things you suggest. Only one has shown a consistent refusal to do what you suggest for over half a decade.

 

[Tince]

If you can't see the difference in potential between Simons and Scoot/Sharpe then you just don't want to.

That's fine.

I said nothing about the "potential" of the three in question, but I get why you'd want to move the goal-posts away from production. Ayton at age 21 had a higher "potential" than Dame at 25. That doesn't mean he had a higher probability of being the better player.

 

[Tince]

Simons would be great if he could play defense.
Scoot would be great if he could shoot (and not turn the ball over).
Shae would be great if he could play defense and stay healthy.

All have barriers to greatness.

Well put. Very much agree!

I think we could add even more barriers to all three as well. To think any of them are clearly the future is hopeful at best.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Well put. Very much agree!

I think we could add even more barriers to all three as well. To think any of them are clearly the future is hopeful at best.

Just to be clear, I haven't said or implied that any of them are the future.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I said nothing about the "potential" of the three in question, but I get why you'd want to move the goal-posts away from production. Ayton at age 21 had a higher "potential" than Dame at 25. That doesn't mean he had a higher probability of being the better player.

I was literally talking about their room fir growth over the last several pages. That's what potential is. Both Scoot and Sharpe have more potential (room for growth) than Ant. Ant is not going to be a good enough defender to start for any healthy contender.

Scoot and Sharpe both have the potential to become those kinds of players. If they aren't better than Simons by their 7th season I'll want to move off of them as well.

No goalposts have been moved by me, though I can see why you'd like to convince yourself they have.

 

[Tince]

I was literally talking about their room fir growth over the last several pages. That's what potential is. Both Scoot and Sharpe have more potential (room for growth) than Ant. Ant is not going to be a good enough defender to start for any healthy contender.

Scoot and Sharpe both have the potential to become those kinds of players. If they aren't better than Simons by their 7th season I'll want to move off of them as well.

No goalposts have been moved by me, though I can see why you'd like to convince yourself they have.

You don't see the major flaw with putting the majority of weight on "potential"?

 

[Tince]

Just to be clear, I haven't said or implied that any of them are the future.

Then why not apply your logic consistently and trade them all?

PS - I'm not suggesting that's a good idea.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

All can do the things you suggest. Only one has shown a consistent refusal to do what you suggest for over half a decade.

This is like saying that I "refuse" to dunk. Playing defense is not simply effort. Anfernee is not a lazy player.

 

[HailBlazers]

You don't see the major flaw with putting the majority of weight on "potential"?

I've seen more capability in Shae's defense in two years than Ant's in six.

 

[Phatguysrule]

This is like saying that I "refuse" to dunk. Playing defense is not simply effort. Anfernee is not a lazy player.

He's plenty athletic enough to play quality defense. He's refusing to get better at defense.

So no. I completely disagree with you. Defense is largely effort. He's not putting effort into being a good defender.

That's not acceptable.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Then why not apply your logic consistently and trade them all?

PS - I'm not suggesting that's a good idea.

Once again, you're pretending these players are the same. They are not, and I'm not going to waste time explaining the difference to you.

That's your problem, and once again, that's fine with me.

 

[Phatguysrule]

You don't see the major flaw with putting the majority of weight on "potential"?

I'm not sure what majority weight you're referring to.

Jesus, I can't believe I have to explain this again.

We have seen Ant for 6 seasons and he's never shown that he can be the pillar to a quality team. He's been given the reigns and isn't good enough and doesn't make his teammates better. And he hasn't improved much defensively in 6 seasons.

Neither Scoot or Sharpe have had that opportunity. If they are where Ant is in another 4 or 5 seasons and the team is in a similar situation I'll likely want to move off of them at that point as well.

 

[blazerkor]

You don't see the major flaw with putting the majority of weight on "potential"?

For what it's worth I think that's exactly what you have to do when you rebuild... because when you try to balance keeping solid aka mediocre starters with your rebuild, you're actually hindering your ability to figure out which guys your going to build around and your ability to acquire more top end talent through the draft.

So I see a major flaw with not putting all of the weight of a franchise on potential during a rebuild.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I'm not sure what majority weight you're referring to.

Jesus, I can't believe I have to explain this again.

We have seen Ant for 6 seasons and he's never shown that he can be the pillar to a quality team. He's been given the reigns and isn't good enough and doesn't make his teammates better. And he hasn't improved much defensively in 6 seasons.

Neither Scoot or Sharpe have had that opportunity. If they are where Ant is in another 4 or 5 seasons and the team is in a similar situation I'll likely want to move off of them at that point as well.

I get your whole tank philosophy in order to get better. I don't like it but I think it is a valid opinion.

And I agree that Ant is not exactly the type of player who makes his teammates better, shooters rarely are. They make the team better, but not necessarily their teammates.

But this whole Ant was given the reigns and failed bullshit is ridiculous. The reigns to what? A big ass tank? Look at the goal of the team since Ant has been a starter. Look how many teammates he has had in the last 2 1/2 years.

It takes a lot to win in this league. There are teams with multiple stars that still barely make the playoffs. (i.e the Lakers)
No one is saying that Ant is a star, but getting rid of him because he isn't........ has a lot of holes.

 

[PDXFonz]

Forget Wheaties

 

[Rastapopoulos]

He's plenty athletic enough to play quality defense. He's refusing to get better at defense.

So no. I completely disagree with you. Defense is largely effort. He's not putting effort into being a good defender.

That's not acceptable.

There's an element of effort to everything, but you also need to have a certain kind of court awareness. There are middling athletes who are great defenders. Look at Draymond - he's about average athleticism. According to you, Vince Carter could have been the greatest defender ever, he just didn't want to.

So disagree with me all you like, you're wrong.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I get your whole tank philosophy in order to get better. I don't like it but I think it is a valid opinion.

And I agree that Ant is not exactly the type of player who makes his teammates better, shooters rarely are. They make the team better, but not necessarily their teammates.

But this whole Ant was given the reigns and failed bullshit is ridiculous. The reigns to what? A big ass tank? Look at the goal of the team since Ant has been a starter. Look how many teammates he has had in the last 2 1/2 years.

It takes a lot to win in this league. There are teams with multiple stars that still barely make the playoffs. (i.e the Lakers)
No one is saying that Ant is a star, but getting rid of him because he isn't........ has a lot of holes.

He was the ball dominant player. He has to make his teammates better. If you're 6ft 2 and can't make teammates better or play good defense you're not even a starter in this league.

I'm not saying he failed to win. He failed to do what we need a starting PG to do if we want to compete. And he certainly can't be our starting 2 if we intend to compete.

And he's not going to get much better. We know that. That's a good thing. So now we can stop wasting time on him.

And I'm not saying to get rid of him because he's not a star. I'm saying get rid of him (trade him for the best draft capital possible) because he doesn't have the potential to be a quality starter on a competing team in Portland.

 

[wizenheimer]

21-22 defensive rating:

Jusuf Nurkić 112
Robert Covington 113
Justise Winslow 114
Dennis Smith Jr. 114
Larry Nance Jr. 115
Drew Eubanks 116
Trendon Watford 116
Nassir Little 116
Josh Hart 117
Keon Johnson 118
CJ McCollum 119
Norman Powell 119
Tony Snell 120
Damian Lillard 120
Ben McLemore 120
Anfernee Simons 121

21-22 DBPM:

Robert Covington 1.6
Dennis Smith Jr. 1.2
Larry Nance Jr. 0.6
Jusuf Nurkić 0.2
Trendon Watford -0.4
Nassir Little -0.6
Justise Winslow -0.7
Tony Snell -1.0
Josh Hart -1.0
Norman Powell -1.6
CJ McCollum -1.7
Drew Eubanks -2.3
Ben McLemore -2.5
Keon Johnson -2.5
Damian Lillard -2.7
Anfernee Simons -2.7

2022-23 defensive rating:

Jusuf Nurkić 114
Drew Eubanks 115
Matisse Thybulle 116
Justise Winslow 118
Josh Hart 118
Keon Johnson 119
Cam Reddish 119
Trendon Watford 119
Kevin Knox 120
Jabari Walker 120
Nassir Little 120
Jerami Grant 120
Shaedon Sharpe 121
Damian Lillard 121
Anfernee Simons 123

2022-23 DBPM:

Matisse Thybulle 1.1
Drew Eubanks 0.9
Josh Hart 0.7
Jusuf Nurkić 0.7
Justise Winslow 0.6
Trendon Watford -0.4
Damian Lillard -1.2
Jerami Grant -1.4
Nassir Little -1.4
Cam Reddish -1.4
Keon Johnson -1.6
Shaedon Sharpe -2.0
Jabari Walker -2.1
Anfernee Simons -2.5
Kevin Knox -2.7

2023-24 defensive rating:

Matisse Thybulle 114
Deandre Ayton 114
Jabari Walker 116
Dalano Banton 117
Duop Reath 117
Toumani Camara 117
Kris Murray 118
Shaedon Sharpe 119
Rayan Rupert 120
Rayan Rupert 120
Malcolm Brogdon 120
Scoot Henderson 120
Jerami Grant 120
Anfernee Simons 121

2023-24 DBPM:

Matisse Thybulle 3.4
Toumani Camara 0.0
Deandre Ayton -0.2
Kris Murray -0.2
Justin Minaya -0.5
Duop Reath -0.7
Malcolm Brogdon -0.7
Jabari Walker -0.9
Shaedon Sharpe -0.9
Dalano Banton -0.9
Jerami Grant -1.1
Rayan Rupert -1.2
Scoot Henderson -2.3
Anfernee Simons -2.5

I might be looking at a trend

 

[Phatguysrule]

There's an element of effort to everything, but you also need to have a certain kind of court awareness. There are middling athletes who are great defenders. Look at Draymond - he's about average athleticism. According to you, Vince Carter could have been the greatest defender ever, he just didn't want to.

So disagree with me all you like, you're wrong.

No that's not what that means at all. It's unacceptable to be a bad defender if you're an athletic player. That can't be acceptable if we want to compete.