Free Agent Devonte Graham

[Rastapopoulos]

No that's not what that means at all. It's unacceptable to be a bad defender if you're an athletic player. That can't be acceptable if we want to compete.

OK, don't accept it. Doesn't mean Anfernee isn't trying.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

21-22 defensive rating:

Jusuf Nurkić 112
Robert Covington 113
Justise Winslow 114
Dennis Smith Jr. 114
Larry Nance Jr. 115
Drew Eubanks 116
Trendon Watford 116
Nassir Little 116
Josh Hart 117
Keon Johnson 118
CJ McCollum 119
Norman Powell 119
Tony Snell 120
Damian Lillard 120
Ben McLemore 120
Anfernee Simons 121

21-22 DBPM:

Robert Covington 1.6
Dennis Smith Jr. 1.2
Larry Nance Jr. 0.6
Jusuf Nurkić 0.2
Trendon Watford -0.4
Nassir Little -0.6
Justise Winslow -0.7
Tony Snell -1.0
Josh Hart -1.0
Norman Powell -1.6
CJ McCollum -1.7
Drew Eubanks -2.3
Ben McLemore -2.5
Keon Johnson -2.5
Damian Lillard -2.7
Anfernee Simons -2.7

2022-23 defensive rating:

Jusuf Nurkić 114
Drew Eubanks 115
Matisse Thybulle 116
Justise Winslow 118
Josh Hart 118
Keon Johnson 119
Cam Reddish 119
Trendon Watford 119
Kevin Knox 120
Jabari Walker 120
Nassir Little 120
Jerami Grant 120
Shaedon Sharpe 121
Damian Lillard 121
Anfernee Simons 123

2022-23 DBPM:

Matisse Thybulle 1.1
Drew Eubanks 0.9
Josh Hart 0.7
Jusuf Nurkić 0.7
Justise Winslow 0.6
Trendon Watford -0.4
Damian Lillard -1.2
Jerami Grant -1.4
Nassir Little -1.4
Cam Reddish -1.4
Keon Johnson -1.6
Shaedon Sharpe -2.0
Jabari Walker -2.1
Anfernee Simons -2.5
Kevin Knox -2.7

2023-24 defensive rating:

Matisse Thybulle 114
Deandre Ayton 114
Jabari Walker 116
Dalano Banton 117
Duop Reath 117
Toumani Camara 117
Kris Murray 118
Shaedon Sharpe 119
Rayan Rupert 120
Rayan Rupert 120
Malcolm Brogdon 120
Scoot Henderson 120
Jerami Grant 120
Anfernee Simons 121

2023-24 DBPM:

Matisse Thybulle 3.4
Toumani Camara 0.0
Deandre Ayton -0.2
Kris Murray -0.2
Justin Minaya -0.5
Duop Reath -0.7
Malcolm Brogdon -0.7
Jabari Walker -0.9
Shaedon Sharpe -0.9
Dalano Banton -0.9
Jerami Grant -1.1
Rayan Rupert -1.2
Scoot Henderson -2.3
Anfernee Simons -2.5

I might be looking at a trend

The interesting thing there is how we convinced ourselves that Jerami is a good defender.

 

[Pinwheel1]

He was the ball dominant player. He has to make his teammates better. If you're 6ft 2 and can't make teammates better or play good defense you're not even a starter in this league.

I'm not saying he failed to win. He failed to do what we need a starting PG to do if we want to compete. And he certainly can't be our starting 2 if we intend to compete.

And he's not going to get much better. We know that. That's a good thing. So now we can stop wasting time on him.

And I'm not saying to get rid of him because he's not a star. I'm saying get rid of him because he doesn't have the potential to be a quality starter on a competing team in Portland.

 

[wizenheimer]

The interesting thing there is how we convinced ourselves that Jerami is a good defender.

he's certainly been disappointing as a defender. Add that to his woeful rebounding and there's plenty not to like.

the irony, for me at least, is I was expecting a better defender and a worse three point shooter. He's flipped the script

 

[Pinwheel1]

He was the ball dominant player. He has to make his teammates better. If you're 6ft 2 and can't make teammates better or play good defense you're not even a starter in this league.

I'm not saying he failed to win. He failed to do what we need a starting PG to do if we want to compete. And he certainly can't be our starting 2 if we intend to compete.

And he's not going to get much better. We know that. That's a good thing. So now we can stop wasting time on him.

And I'm not saying to get rid of him because he's not a star. I'm saying get rid of him because he doesn't have the potential to be a quality starter on a competing team in Portland.

So now are we back to his salary? I have been adamant that I want to see him come off the bench and provide what this (and every team) needs........ scoring. He does not necessarily need to make his teammates better, he needs to make his team better. Which of course you don't want either. Not until we have multiple stars on the team. Good luck with that.

 

[PDXFonz]

 

[Tince]

I've seen more capability in Shae's defense in two years than Ant's in six.

I'd agree with that. Though both are bottom half of the league. Ant has been the better offensive player of the two.

 

[Tince]

Once again, you're pretending these players are the same. They are not, and I'm not going to waste time explaining the difference to you.

That's your problem, and once again, that's fine with me.

I've never said these players are the same. You are pretending I've said that.

 

[Tince]

For what it's worth I think that's exactly what you have to do when you rebuild... because when you try to balance keeping solid aka mediocre starters with your rebuild, you're actually hindering your ability to figure out which guys your going to build around and your ability to acquire more top end talent through the draft.

So I see a major flaw with not putting all of the weight of a franchise on potential during a rebuild.

I hear you, but I fully disagree that "putting all the weight of a franchise on potential" is a smart move during a rebuild. I think there is a list of negatives with that strategy which can seriously hurt the rebuild.

Again, I'm not anti-trading Ant. If we can get good value for him, by all means we should do it. Forcing a move to make room for Sharpe (when Sharpe isn't being held back), even if the value isn't there, seems foolish to me.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I've never said these players are the same. You are pretending I've said that.

Look at the post I replied to. That's your answer.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I hear you, but I fully disagree that "putting all the weight of a franchise on potential" is a smart move during a rebuild. I think there is a list of negatives with that strategy which can seriously hurt the rebuild.

Again, I'm not anti-trading Ant. If we can get good value for him, by all means we should do it. Forcing a move to make room for Sharpe (when Sharpe isn't being held back), even if the value isn't there, seems foolish to me.

I've only advocated for trading Ant for good value.

 

[Tince]

Look at the post I replied to. That's your answer.

Yeah, I got it. You are selective with when and how your apply your logic.

I still never said (pretended) Scoot, Sharpe, and Ant were the same players.

 

[Tince]

I've only advocated for trading Ant for good value.

We agree on that!

He doesn't have to go, but if we can get good value for him, we should do it!

 

[Pinwheel1]

We agree on that!

He doesn't have to go, but if we can get good value for him, we should do it!

Everyone agrees with that. Now trying to get everyone to agree on what is fair value, is
a completely different story.

 

[Phatguysrule]

So now are we back to his salary? I have been adamant that I want to see him come off the bench and provide what this (and every team) needs........ scoring. He does not necessarily need to make his teammates better, he needs to make his team better. Which of course you don't want either. Not until we have multiple stars on the team. Good luck with that.

Yeah I'd rather avoid the treadmill...

 

[Phatguysrule]

OK, don't accept it. Doesn't mean Anfernee isn't trying.

If he were trying he wouldn't be one of the worst offenders in NBA. He has all the lateral movement athleticism he needs. The only thing he lacks is effort (on the court and in the film room and in training) to be a decent defender.

*Edit* And regardless, his intentions don't mean a damn thing to me. If he's too stupid to be a good defender then that's just as bad.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Everyone agrees with that. Now trying to get everyone to agree on what is fair value, is
a completely different story.

No, not exactly, IMO. He needs to go or we're not going to get as good of value for him. The best value we're ever going to get for him will be prior to the trade deadline this season. And that's probably less than we could have gotten for him last season.

There will only ever be more pressure to trade him. Or he'll be pouting from coming off the bench. Keeping Simons only invites problems. He's just not good enough to separate himself enough from our younger guys. And they're going to pass him unless he stands in their way and hinders their development.

Scoot will run the offense far better and make his teammates far better. Which will more than make up for any loss in individual offensive output. And his defense will be far superior.

Sharp will be just as effective offensively (while not dominating the ball) and far better defensively.

And even if those guys do those things, that still doesn't mean they'll be stars.

And Simons is not going to be okay with coming off the bench behind guys who don't put up as impressive numbers offensively.

IMO, Simons is the guy that good teams trade away.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Yeah, I got it. You are selective with when and how your apply your logic.

I still never said (pretended) Scoot, Sharpe, and Ant were the same players.

Then you wouldn't have replied to me the way you did.

Which is the reason I replied to you the way I did.

We shouldn't trade all of them because they're all in different situations. That is your answer. We've seen Ant for longer. As I have told you half a dozen times

Their situations are completely different. Their timelines are completely different. That's why we shouldn't treat them all the same.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

If he were trying he wouldn't be one of the worst offenders in NBA. He has all the lateral movement athleticism he needs. The only thing he lacks is effort (on the court and in the film room and in training) to be a decent defender.

*Edit* And regardless, his intentions don't mean a damn thing to me. If he's too stupid to be a good defender then that's just as bad.

Look: there are skills that no amount of athleticism can give you. Remember Michael Jordan's baseball career? Was he just "stupid"?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Look: there are skills that no amount of athleticism can give you. /QUOTE]
Which doesn't matter in the least. He's not a good defender. He's not going to be a good defender. He's proving that. And he doesn't make his teammates better.

That's all that matters.

In my experience, any person who is above average athletically and below average defensively is choosing to be. I have no patience for those kind of players.

Every above average athletic person I have ever taught to play defense has been an above average defender at their level.

Every. Single. One.

But I don't waste my time on people who don't bring the right attitude and intention.

Every athletic individual who is a poor defender that I have ever seen is because they are lazy on a defensive end.

Maybe that is because they're saving themselves for the offensive end. But that is not how you build a winning team.

Remember Michael Jordan's baseball career? Was he just "stupid"?[

No, Michael Jordan just didn't have elite level hand-eye coordination yet. He May have made the majors if he had kept at it. But he hadn't put in enough time or reps at a high enough level to be that good.

This is very simple and very basic. You can't just stop playing something like baseball and expect to pick it right back up at an elite level.

If Michael Jordan had stayed for 6 years I think you would have been good enough to make the majors.

 

[Tince]

Everyone agrees with that. Now trying to get everyone to agree on what is fair value, is
a completely different story.

So true!

 

[Tince]

Which doesn't matter in the least. He's not a good defender. He's not going to be a good defender. He's proving that. And he doesn't make his teammates better.

That's all that matters.

In my experience, any person who is above average athletically and below average defensively is choosing to be. I have no patience for those kind of players.

Every above average athletic person I have ever taught to play defense has been an above average defender at their level.

Every. Single. One.

But I don't waste my time on people who don't bring the right attitude and intention.

Every athletic individual who is a poor defender that I have ever seen is because they are lazy on a defensive end.

Maybe that is because they're saving themselves for the offensive end. But that is not how you build a winning team.

Don't Scoot and Sharpe both fit in that category though? They're below average.

Dame was a below average defender, and I'm not sure he held the franchise back. He wasn't the reason why we couldn't get past the WCF. I'd actually say it was our above average defending forwards that held us back.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Don't Scoot and Sharpe both fit in that category though? They're below average.

Dame was a below average defender, and I'm not sure he held the franchise back. He wasn't the reason why we couldn't get past the WCF. I'd actually say it was our above average defending forwards that held us back.

We definitely lost some playoff series in part because of Dame's terrible defense.

But no, I don't expect first and second year players to be average NBA defenders. If they are, that's great.

They have both shown far better defensive abilities than Simons.

So I'm willing to give them five or six years just like I was willing to give Simons 5 or 6 years.

Now that we've given Simons six years, we know that he's not going to be a capable defender. And he doesn't make his teammates better. Dame was great at making his teammates better.

And even Lillard's defense was far better than Simons'.

 

[Tince]

We definitely lost some playoff series in part because of Dame's terrible defense.

But no, I don't expect first and second year players to be average NBA defenders. If they are, that's great.

They have both shown far better defensive abilities than Simons.

So I'm willing to give them five or six years just like I was willing to give Simons 5 or 6 years.

Now that we've given Simons six years, we know that he's not going to be a capable defender. And he doesn't make his teammates better. Dame was great at making his teammates better.

And even Lillard's defense was far better than Simons'.

The series where Dame's defense was a negative (not the only reason we lost), were often series we never would've been in without Dame, so it's hard for me to put that on him.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The series where Dame's defense was a negative (not the only reason we lost), were often series we never would've been in without Dame, so it's hard for me to put that on him.

True. Dame was definitely a bigger positive than his defense was a negative.

But I don't think Simons is the same way. I think he can help a competitive team, but I don't think he can be one of the pillers you build around. And I don't think he'll be able to accept a back seat here. In fact, I don't think it's really fair to ask him to take a back seat.

 

[Tince]

True. Dame was definitely a bigger positive than his defense was a negative.

But I don't think Simons is the same way. I think he can help a competitive team, but I don't think he can be one of the pillers you build around. And I don't think he'll be able to accept a back seat here. In fact, I don't think it's really fair to ask him to take a back seat.

Agreed on Dame.

I wouldn't build around Ant either. I don't think any team in the league will build around him. There is no evidence to suggest that he would be unwilling to be a role player if surrounded by better talent, so that isn't a concern of mine in the least.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Agreed on Dame.

I wouldn't build around Ant either. I don't think any team in the league will build around him. There is no evidence to suggest that he would be unwilling to be a role player if surrounded by better talent, so that isn't a concern of mine in the least.

I think if we wait long enough for there to be evidence we will have doomed ourself to receiving less value in return for him.

I think that more than likely would be the case for the vast majority of people.

He is our best guard (at this point). That is pretty well understood. I don't think there's any way you can build a team around him (intentionally or not) without him being one of the pillars.

I'd rather not do that.

 

[jlprk]

It turns out that Graham isn't a G-League signing.

Devonte’ Graham‘s one-year, non-guaranteed training camp contract with the Trail Blazers includes Exhibit 9 language, but not Exhibit 10 language, Hoops Rumors has learned. That suggests Graham probably isn’t planning to join the Rip City Remix (Portland’s G League team) as an affiliate player if he’s waived by the Blazers this fall.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Don't Scoot and Sharpe both fit in that category though? They're below average.

Dame was a below average defender, and I'm not sure he held the franchise back. He wasn't the reason why we couldn't get past the WCF. I'd actually say it was our above average defending forwards that held us back.

Funny that the Bucks won a championship with Jrue "Defense" Holiday and were a major disappointment with Damian "Offense" Lillard...

 

[Tince]

Funny that the Bucks won a championship with Jrue "Defense" Holiday and were a major disappointment with Damian "Offense" Lillard...

Certainly Antetokounmpo and Dame being hurt had nothing to do with the lack of playoff success.

Oh, and two awful head coaches.