Did the last two games change your mind?

[Orion Bailey]

In that case, keep him. At that price, his strengths far outweigh his weaknesses.

We've had A LOT of shitty point guards over the years.... and I mean A LOT. So Napier is actually pretty damn good if you compare him to our past experiences .

Eric Maynor
Nolan Smith
The ghost of Earl Watson
Ronnie Price
Jonny Flynn
Armon Johnson

Our last decent backup was probably Patty Mills and that was six years ago, but the list just keeps going.

Travis Diener
Sergio
Taurean Green
Dan Dickau
Maurice Baker (who?)
Omar Cook
Eddie Gill
Erick Barkley

I think you forgot about Mo.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I specifically left off most of the guys who started or were part of the main rotation, so guys like Felton, Blake, Miller, Mo, Bayless, or even Telfair. Most of the guys on that list are 3rd stringers (like Napier.) I think it also depends on which iteration of Steve Blake you're talking about, because he was pretty shitty in his final stint.

Yousaid we have had lots of shitty PG's over the years. You didnt specify starting or not. Further more. Mo wasnt a starter. Just saying, he deserves some cred. he was good for us.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I think you forgot about Mo.

And:

Steve Blake 1.0 - decent
Steve Blake 2.0 - good
Steve Blake 3.o - meh

BNM

 

[Natebishop3]

Yousaid we have had lots of shitty PG's over the years. You didnt specify starting or not. Further more. Mo wasnt a starter. Just saying, he deserves some cred. he was good for us.

I said we had a lot of shitty point guards over the years, and then I proceeded to name many of them. You said that Mo wasn't shitty, so are you saying he should have been on that list? It wasn't a comprehensive list.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I said we had a lot of shitty point guards over the years, and then I proceeded to name many of them. You said that Mo wasn't shitty, so are you saying he should have been on that list? It wasn't a comprehensive list.

Mo definitely wasn't shitty. Steve Blake 3.0 probably qualifies though, but he's such a good dude, I feel bad for saying so.

BNM

 

[Natebishop3]

Mo definitely wasn't shitty. Steve Blake 3.0 probably qualifies though, but he's such a good dude, I feel bad for saying so.

BNM

Mo was frustrating. Not really shitty..... just extremely frustrating at times.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I said we had a lot of shitty point guards over the years, and then I proceeded to name many of them. You said that Mo wasn't shitty, so are you saying he should have been on that list? It wasn't a comprehensive list.

Of course not. I'm just poking at ya.

Define Shitty?
Wasn't Nolan Smith supposed to be the future?

 

[BonesJones]

Napier could be a good option if we shed Turners contract. Napier plays good D and can score. He could get 15 minutes off the bench as the bench-shot-creator with Crabbe playing backup 2 or 3.

If we could shed Turner and Meyers (Hey Sacramento, do you want a draft pick), and then trade Davis and Aminu, we'd have about $10M in cap space to go after an underrated PF like James Johnson.

Dame/CJ/Moe/Johnson/Nurkic
backed up by
Napier/Crabbe/Vonleh/whoever we draft

That'd be pretty good. We could resign Nurk the following year without exceeding salary cap.

Basically, Napier is as good as Turner, and is cheaper and younger. While it would've been smart to try to shed Turner before, it makes even more sense to me with Napier as a capable replacement.

 

[Natebishop3]

Of course not. I'm just poking at ya.

Define Shitty?
Wasn't Nolan Smith supposed to be the future?

I don't think anyone, at any time, said that Nolan Smith was the future of anything.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Napier could be a good option if we shed Turners contract. Napier plays good D and can score. He could get 15 minutes off the bench as the bench-shot-creator with Crabbe playing backup 2 or 3.

If we could shed Turner and Meyers (Hey Sacramento, do you want a draft pick), and then trade Davis and Aminu, we'd have about $10M in cap space to go after an underrated PF like James Johnson.

Dame/CJ/Moe/Johnson/Nurkic
backed up by
Napier/Crabbe/Vonleh/whoever we draft

That'd be pretty good. We could resign Nurk the following year without exceeding salary cap.

Basically, Napier is as good as Turner, and is cheaper and younger. While it would've been smart to try to shed Turner before, it makes even more sense to me with Napier as a capable replacement.

The problem I see is we're losing out two best defenders in Turner and Aminu. Napier doesn't have the size or strength to guard anyone other than other midget PGs. Johnson if we could get him could replace Aminu, but I think our perimeter defense would suffer of we gave Napier 15 MPG, especially if he's paired with Crabbe.

Draft day is going to be really interesting. Will we keep all three picks, and if so, who will we get that can replace some of our overpriced bench players? Or will be bundle picks to try to get a proven player that's an upgrade, but cheaper, than what we already have?

BNM

 

[H.C.]

Napier could be a good option if we shed Turners contract. Napier plays good D and can score. He could get 15 minutes off the bench as the bench-shot-creator with Crabbe playing backup 2 or 3.

If we could shed Turner and Meyers (Hey Sacramento, do you want a draft pick), and then trade Davis and Aminu, we'd have about $10M in cap space to go after an underrated PF like James Johnson.

Dame/CJ/Moe/Johnson/Nurkic
backed up by
Napier/Crabbe/Vonleh/whoever we draft

That'd be pretty good. We could resign Nurk the following year without exceeding salary cap.

Basically, Napier is as good as Turner, and is cheaper and younger. While it would've been smart to try to shed Turner before, it makes even more sense to me with Napier as a capable replacement.

Napier is the better perimeter shooter. But after that is he really "as good as Turner". I find that to be very questionable.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I don't think anyone, at any time, said that Nolan Smith was the future of anything.

Well, other than Chad Buchanan...

BNM

 

[BonesJones]

The problem I see is we're losing out two best defenders in Turner and Aminu. Napier doesn't have the size or strength to guard anyone other than other midget PGs. Johnson if we could get him could replace Aminu, but I think our perimeter defense would suffer of we gave Napier 15 MPG, especially if he's paired with Crabbe.

Draft day is going to be really interesting. Will we keep all three picks, and if so, who will we get that can replace some of our overpriced bench players? Or will be bundle picks to try to get a proven player that's an upgrade, but cheaper, than what we already have?

BNM

Napier would only play PG so I don't understand the problem. He does a great job on PGs. Therefore, I don't see how its a problem, especially when we're saving $15M.

If we draft Anunoby, it would give us a scoring PG, Sniper SG, and Defending SF. I think a combination of Napier/Anunoby is just as effective as Turner, and would save us a ton of money

 

[Boob-No-More]

Napier would only play PG so I don't understand the problem. He does a great job on PGs. Therefore, I don't see how its a problem, especially when we're saving $15M.

If we draft Anunoby, it would give us a scoring PG, Sniper SG, and Defending SF. I think a combination of Napier/Anunoby is just as effective as Turner, and would save us a ton of money

I was specifically responding to your suggestion of pairing him with Crabbe. Neither is capable of defending anyone over 6'3" nearly as well as Turner can. Not saying Napier can't work as a back up PG, it's the Napier/Crabbe combination that gives me pause on the defensive end.

And, if your goal is to save money...

BNM

 

[BonesJones]

I was specifically responding to your suggestion of pairing him with Crabbe. Neither is capable of defending anyone over 6'3" nearly as well as Turner can. Not saying Napier can't work as a back up PG, it's the Napier/Crabbe combination that gives me pause on the defensive end.

And, if your goal is to save money...

BNM

Napier does a better job of guarding his position (PG) than any of Turner, Crabbe, Lillard, or McCollum. So while we may have a lesser defender guarding the wing (Crabbe would have to guard the bigger perimeter options), we'll have a better defending option guarding the point.

We'd need to spend time trying to develop Crabbe defensively to be the same level of defender as Turner. Crabbe has room to grow (which Turner doesn't), and has the tools to at least become the defender Turner has (while Turner has no chance to develop into the shooter Crabbe is). Therefore, you get rid of Turner first and foremost, especially since I don't think we'd suffer offensively with Napier being a better shooter and creator.

 

[H.C.]

Napier is someone who can get his own shot.
But in no way is he a creator for others. Especially to the extent Turner has shown to be.
Simply because Napier has yet to see a shot he doesn't like.
The last two games showed nothing about Napier that wasn't shown in pre-season. He can score. His creating is for himself, and not others.
Turner is more consistent guarding 1-3 than anyone else on the team.
I'd keep(unless there was an obvious replacement) Napier but I thought this from the pre-season, when I was saying on this forum.
"It's going to be hard to keep Napier on the bench".

 

[Boob-No-More]

Napier does a better job of guarding his position (PG) than any of Turner, Crabbe, Lillard, or McCollum. So while we may have a lesser defender guarding the wing (Crabbe would have to guard the bigger perimeter options), we'll have a better defending option guarding the point.

I disagree. Turner has effectively guarded the 1-3 at different times during the season. There have been times when Stotts specifically put him on the other team's PG. I don't recall Stotts ever inserting Napier into the line up when we needed a defensive stop.

We'd need to spend time trying to develop Crabbe defensively to be the same level of defender as Turner. Crabbe has room to grow (which Turner doesn't), and has the tools to at least become the defender Turner has (while Turner has no chance to develop into the shooter Crabbe is). Therefore, you get rid of Turner first and foremost, especially since I don't think we'd suffer offensively with Napier being a better shooter and creator.

I do not share your optimism about Crabbe ever becoming even average as a defender. He just doesn't have the mindset or the motor. Watch how Turner gets up to guard LeBron. I can't see Crabbe ever getting excited to take on that kind of defensive challenge.

I also don't understand why you think Crabbe can improve defensively, but Turner can't improve his shot. There are plenty of examples of players who greatly improved their 3-point shooting in their late 20s or early 30s. Here's just a few off the top of my head: Magic Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Jason Kidd, Rip Hamilton, John Stockton, Ricky Pierce, Mark Jackson, Boris Diaw, Cliff Robinson, Channing Frye, etc. I'm sure there are a lot more I can't think of. Those a few Hall of Famers, a few ex-Blazers and and anyone else that randomly popped into my head.

I think I'd be hard pressed to come up with a similar list of guys who greatly improved their defense later in their careers. I'm sure there are several, but most of the ones I can think of are big men who learned how to defend without fouling.

In any case, I don't think Turner needs to become an elite 3-point shooter to be more valuable to the team than Crabbe. I think if he can improve similar to what Aminu and Harkless did the last two years, it would make him a more valuable player, and others can pick up the 3-point shooting slack (Napier, Connaughton and anyone we happen to draft) for losing Crabbe.

BNM

 

[BonesJones]

I disagree. Turner has effectively guarded the 1-3 at different times during the season. There have been times when Stotts specifically put him on the other team's PG. I don't recall Stotts ever inserting Napier into the line up when we needed a defensive stop.



I do not share your optimism about Crabbe ever becoming even average as a defender. He just doesn't have the mindset or the motor. Watch how Turner gets up to guard LeBron. I can't see Crabbe ever getting excited to take on that kind of defensive challenge.

I also don't understand why you think Crabbe can improve defensively, but Turner can't improve his shot. There are plenty of examples of players who greatly improved their 3-point shooting in their late 20s or early 30s. Here's just a few off the top of my head: Magic Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Jason Kidd, Rip Hamilton, John Stockton, Ricky Pierce, Mark Jackson, Boris Diaw, Cliff Robinson, Channing Frye, etc. I'm sure there are a lot more I can't think of. Those a few Hall of Famers, a few ex-Blazers and and anyone else that randomly popped into my head.

I think I'd be hard pressed to come up with a similar list of guys who greatly improved their defense later in their careers. I'm sure there are several, but most of the ones I can think of are big men who learned how to defend without fouling.

In any case, I don't think Turner needs to become an elite 3-point shooter to be more valuable to the team than Crabbe. I think if he can improve similar to what Aminu and Harkless did the last two years, it would make him a more valuable player, and others can pick up the 3-point shooting slack (Napier, Connaughton and anyone we happen to draft) for losing Crabbe.

BNM

Do you really think Turner has a better chance at becoming an good shooter than Crabbe has of becoming a good defender?

Turner would have to completely change his form to get better, while Harkless and Aminu had to make minor tweaks. Turner won't just improve like those 2, and its likely he'll never change his form. If he does, it probably won't be an improvement for a couple years.

Turners been in the league for years. Hell never become a good shooter. Meanwhile Crabbe has shown flashes defensively.

Crabbe has the physical tools to be a good defender. There's no denying that. Its not possible to change someone's physical tools, but it is possible to change a mentality.

 

[Sinobas]

Napier needs to go. So does Quarterman.

Vonleh is not the pfotf, but he's worth keeping.

Keep Pat and Jake until the end of their rookie contracts.

Huh?? How the hell did you get "Napier needs to go" from the last two games? He was as scoring machine.

 

[joeBlazers]

I just want E Turner off this team. Really thought this guy was going to be that 3rd option on this team. He has stunk and stunk and still stinks. Can we trade him to Dallas for Wesley Matthews and Toni Romo?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Do you really think Turner has a better chance at becoming an good shooter than Crabbe has of becoming a good defender?

I'd settle for either one of them becoming average.[/quote]

Turner would have to completely change his form to get better, while Harkless and Aminu had to make minor tweaks. Turner won't just improve like those 2, and its likely he'll never change his form. If he does, it probably won't be an improvement for a couple years.

Aminu's form is still hideous. I'm surprised the ball goes in as much as it does. Turner is a significantly better FT shooter than Aminu and a MUCH better FT shooter than Harkless. So, I hold out hope. His biggest problem is no lift on his shot, and that gets worse the further he gets from the basket. Not something that's impossible to correct.

Turners been in the league for years. Hell never become a good shooter. Meanwhile Crabbe has shown flashes defensively.

All those other guys I mentioned had been in the league for years, too and still managed to make huge improvements in their 3-point shooting in their late 20s and early 30s. Adding, or improving a 3-point shot later in a player's career is not without precedent.

I'm not seeing the flashes defensively you are seeing from Crabbe. He occasionally gets a timely steal by getting his arms in the passing lanes, and that's a good use of his length, but he's an atrocious on ball defender. He stands up too straight and constantly lets his man blow by him. He also seems to have slow reaction time and lacks horizontal quickness. Can he get better? One would hope, because he's pretty bad right now.

As I said initially, it wouldn't break my heart to see either, or both, moved to help get us under the tax threshold. Crabbe's contract is bigger, so the savings is greater, plus he's younger and I think we would get more (or have to give up less) in return.

BNM

 

[AquaXI]

I don't know draft value points but how high can we climb with 3 first rounders? Top 5? With Nurkic, Dame, McColum in place don't you think one top 5 guy with the backups that we have can consistently go places?

 

[Boob-No-More]

I don't know draft value points but how high can we climb with 3 first rounders? Top 5? With Nurkic, Dame, McColum in place don't you think one top 5 guy with the backups that we have can consistently go places?

I will depend on where our picks end up, and how many "points" other GMs think they're worth, but from the table created by the author, our three picks are worth roughly the same as the 8th pick.

Still good luck convincing Vivek and Vlade that our three picks are worth as much as their one. The Kings like having high lottery picks. They had 8 top 8 picks in 8 years and Boogie was the only one they got right.

And, would we really be better off with the 8th pick than the three we have?

BNM

 

[H.C.]

I just want E Turner off this team. Really thought this guy was going to be that 3rd option on this team. He has stunk and stunk and still stinks. Can we trade him to Dallas for Wesley Matthews and Toni Romo?

If you thought that, then you clearly didn't know much about the kind of player Evan Turner is. Frankly still don't.

 

[BonesJones]

I'd settle for either one of them becoming average.

That wasn't the question.

Aminu's form is still hideous. I'm surprised the ball goes in as much as it does. Turner is a significantly better FT shooter than Aminu and a MUCH better FT shooter than Harkless. So, I hold out hope. His biggest problem is no lift on his shot, and that gets worse the further he gets from the basket. Not something that's impossible to correct.

Turner's form produces a flat shot. Turner is a decent FT shooter and midrange shooter because flat shots aren't as detrimental the closer you get.

A flat shot is harder and also has less surface area available to go through the hoop. From the arc, that leads to shots either hitting the front rim or the back rim, and if it hits the back rim, the shot is so hard that it has no chance of going in.

All those other guys I mentioned had been in the league for years, too and still managed to make huge improvements in their 3-point shooting in their late 20s and early 30s. Adding, or improving a 3-point shot later in a player's career is not without precedent.

I'm not seeing the flashes defensively you are seeing from Crabbe. He occasionally gets a timely steal by getting his arms in the passing lanes, and that's a good use of his length, but he's an atrocious on ball defender. He stands up too straight and constantly lets his man blow by him. He also seems to have slow reaction time and lacks horizontal quickness. Can he get better? One would hope, because he's pretty bad right now.

As I said initially, it wouldn't break my heart to see either, or both, moved to help get us under the tax threshold. Crabbe's contract is bigger, so the savings is greater, plus he's younger and I think we would get more (or have to give up less) in return.

BNM

. All Aminu and Harkless had to do was make very minor adjustments to their form to get better results.

Crabbe's two steals in the closing seconds of the Houston game weren't flashes?

 

[H.C.]

Disclaimer, the Aminu is 2017. The Turner is obviously not.

There are obvious issues to both players form, but one shoots how some kids I coach/ref/supervise in middle school do when they're not strong enough to get it to the rim. The other's main issue is hand placement.
I wouldn't say Aminu is a minor adjustment, as he needs his form completely rebuilt.
Where Turner needs to move his off hand, and his balanced fixed.

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[BBert]

I think you forgot about Mo.

I'm trying to.

 

[BBert]

Turner's shot is fugly. I don't see him changing his form. It is what it is. Crabbe is a cool cat; good shooter but I don't see him ever showing the defensive intensity of Turner. Physical tools for defense, sure; mindset and motor, not so much.

Just my two pesos.

 

[Sarni]

I don't know draft value points but how high can we climb with 3 first rounders? Top 5? With Nurkic, Dame, McColum in place don't you think one top 5 guy with the backups that we have can consistently go places?

No chance we move into top 5 with those three picks in this draft. Maybe top 10. You need to look at which teams might be willing to trade their picks because they would prefer to have more young players than one better talent.

I don't get people saying those two games convinced them that Napier needs to go, considering he scored almost 30 on average. His overall game is not that great but surely someone who can score is still pretty valuable?

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Turner's shot is fugly. I don't see him changing his form. It is what it is. Crabbe is a cool cat; good shooter but I don't see him ever showing the defensive intensity of Turner. Physical tools for defense, sure; mindset and motor, not so much.

Just my two pesos.

Fugly is right. ET looks like he's shooting a knuckleball......