Do not trade CJ

[1 Eye Jack]

After watching last nights game it reminded me of what great defenses can do to guys like Dame. Didn’t help we kept trying to do high pick which just created an automatic double team.

the key is to have another guy who can create his own shot and CJ is the only other player on the roster who’s capable of doing that against defenses like the Lakers showed tonight. Grant is great at hitting shots but still can’t consistently get his shot against a defense like that. Melo has never been a good passer so when teams double we still don’t get great looks.

Stotts has to figure another offense that he can go to besides high pick it’s like his crutch. Lastly other guys have to hit shots but we need better shots for them. I think it’s really important to get a 2nd point guard one that creates shots for 2nd unit and in some cases for first unit. Guys like Rondo, CP, etc

 

[e_blazer]

I agree with you, but oh boy did you just kick a hornets’ nest.

Getting Nurk back will be huge too. Those big screens and the pick and roll/pop action are sorely missed in the Blazers’ offense.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Yeah CJ would be better than any non Dame player we have playing now.

The team needs defensive players at all other spots on the roster with those two. Not Kanter, Melo, Hood, or Simons.

 

[kjironman1]

Gonna watch how this goes...

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Simmons would be the only one I’d trade CJ for — for two reasons:

-Elite defender
-Keeping GTJ a starter

 

[Natebishop3]

I’m sorry but adding CJ does nothing. The problem is Stotts iso driven offense. Watch the Jazz and then watch us. It’s not like Utah is inherently more talented. They just play much better defense and have amazing ball movement.

 

[royo]

This game showed that we don't have a single idea of playing offence if they trap Lillard. And who on earth would have thought they would do that?!
We play one man basketball. CJ comeback will be a patch on rotten culture. We lost AST 15:25 again, not bc CJ wasn't there.

 

[bobf]

Yeah CJ would be better than any non Dame player we have playing now.

The team needs defensive players at all other spots on the roster with those two. Not Kanter, Melo, Hood, or Simons.

Yes, you can survive less than great offense if you have some defense. That combination is horrific defensively and not even good offensively.

 

[1 Eye Jack]

Simmons would be the only one I’d trade CJ for — for two reasons:

-Elite defender
-Keeping GTJ a starter

Agree perfect trade scenario take tone of pressure off Dame and make game so much easier for players around him.

 

[wizenheimer]

we're talking about the kind of defense that has limited Dame for 6 seasons....right? The kind of defense on Dame that has been responsible for Portland bowing out of 7 straight playoffs with a whimper, often getting swept?

CJ has been there for all of that and it hasn't helped. CJ was having a supernatural season before his injury and Portland was only 7-5. If CJ was the answer, he would have answered the question consistently over the last 6 seasons, but that question remains unanswered.

 

[kjironman1]

we're talking about the kind of defense that has limited Dame for 6 seasons....right? The kind of defense on Dame that has been responsible for Portland bowing out of 7 straight playoffs with a whimper, often getting swept?

CJ has been there for all of that and it hasn't helped. CJ was having a supernatural season before his injury and Portland was only 7-5. If CJ was the answer, he would have answered the question consistently over the last 6 seasons, but that question remains unanswered.

I’ll bite.
First 10 games Lillard didn’t play well and I believe his wife had twins.
Nurkic showed up out of shape and was just beginning to get into real game shape.
Not sure you can use the beginning of this season as a barometer?

 

[wizenheimer]

I’ll bite.
First 10 games Lillard didn’t play well and I believe his wife had twins.
Nurkic showed up out of shape and was just beginning to get into real game shape.
Not sure you can use the beginning of this season as a barometer?

why not?....CJ fans sure are saying the beginning of the season is the new gauge use for CJ..."he's an all-star!"

and, concerning Dame, are you sure it was the twins or that he was not aggressive because he was deferring to a hot CJ? At one time CJ was averaging 4 more shots a game than Dame with a higher usage rate. The best Dame is an aggressive Dame, and he wasn't aggressive while CJ was dominating the ball

 

[kjironman1]

why not?....CJ fans sure are saying the beginning of the season is the new gauge use for CJ..."he's an all-star!"

and, concerning Dame, are you sure it was the twins or that he was not aggressive because he was deferring to a hot CJ? At one time CJ was averaging 4 more shots a game than Dame with a higher usage rate. The best Dame is an aggressive Dame, and he wasn't aggressive while CJ was dominating the ball

I’m pretty sure the twins had some effects. By the end of it and after the birth he was spending nights at the hospital.
We all know Nurk showed up way out of shape. First two weeks of the season were brutal for the guy.

 

[kjironman1]

All of you are welcome to go back and read some game threads from the first two - three weeks.
It’s also right there in the box scores that Lillard and Nurk both started the season slow.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I’m sorry but adding CJ does nothing. The problem is Stotts iso driven offense. Watch the Jazz and then watch us. It’s not like Utah is inherently more talented. They just play much better defense and have amazing ball movement.

Yes, they do play solid defense with Gobert protecting the rim., but it is their offense this year that has made the difference. They are #1 in 3 pointers made, #3 in 3 point %, #3 in PPG

Their forwards all shoot over 40% from deep. (Bogdanovic, Ingles, O'Neal) to go along with their guards who also shoot well from 3.

 

[wizenheimer]

All of you are welcome to go back and read some game threads from the first two - three weeks.
It’s also right there in the box scores that Lillard and Nurk both started the season slow.

so then, you're saying if every Blazer in the rotation is 100% healthy, and nobody in the rotation is going thru any personal adversity or distractions, and everybody is on top of their games, the Blazers are better than 7-5. In a perfect world, the Blazers are awesome

 

[boredinsalem]

One problem that has persisted for years is that neither Dame or CJ is a point guard. I get that Stotts' flow offense is supposed to make that OK if you have a handful of playmakers out there but unless you can find a bunch of guys that are playmakers, shooters (for spacing), AND defenders that shit doesn't work.

I think it's fine when Dame and CJ are both on because there's so much shooting and ball handling between them the defense has to stay honest and guys can get some easy looks. However, when one of them is off the court we are absolutely killed with traps and none of the other guys get good looks.

It seems that many of our problems would be solved if we had a back up point guard to runt he show when one of only Dame or CJ is on the court and staggered their minutes. Our role players would benefit a ton from easier looks, we could break a damn trap, and dame/cj would be much fresher. Bonus if the PG was a good defender as well. This wouldn't leave any role for Gary or Ant, but at least Gary should a little trade value.

At this point we're ride or die Dame/CJ down the stretch, but I think there's at least 24 mpg (12 with Dame out, 12 with CJ out) out there for a PG that can run the show and play some D. Rubio seems like the perfect guy for that type of role and I'm sure the Twolves would be thrilled to dump him but he's a little spendy.

 

[kjironman1]

so then, you're saying if every Blazer in the rotation is 100% healthy, and nobody in the rotation is going thru any personal adversity or distractions, and everybody is on top of their games, the Blazers are better than 7-5. In a perfect world, the Blazers are awesome

This is why I rarely comment on issues like this.
You want to go there that’s fine.
All I said is they struggled the first 10-12 games and there were some pretty good reasons.
That’s all bro.
Not trying to make excuses for poor play or protect Stotts or Olshey or even Dame for that matter.
Just pointing out obvious issues they dealt with.
I’m giving them a pass for that couple weeks and I’m also looking forward to seeing what this team can accomplish when healthy for an extended period of time if that ever actually happens?

 

[e_blazer]

One problem that has persisted for years is that neither Dame or CJ is a point guard. I get that Stotts' flow offense is supposed to make that OK if you have a handful of playmakers out there but unless you can find a bunch of guys that are playmakers, shooters (for spacing), AND defenders that shit doesn't work.

I think it's fine when Dame and CJ are both on because there's so much shooting and ball handling between them the defense has to stay honest and guys can get some easy looks. However, when one of them is off the court we are absolutely killed with traps and none of the other guys get good looks.

It seems that many of our problems would be solved if we had a back up point guard to runt he show when one of only Dame or CJ is on the court and staggered their minutes. Our role players would benefit a ton from easier looks, we could break a damn trap, and dame/cj would be much fresher. Bonus if the PG was a good defender as well. This wouldn't leave any role for Gary or Ant, but at least Gary should a little trade value.

At this point we're ride or die Dame/CJ down the stretch, but I think there's at least 24 mpg (12 with Dame out, 12 with CJ out) out there for a PG that can run the show and play some D. Rubio seems like the perfect guy for that type of role and I'm sure the Twolves would be thrilled to dump him but he's a little spendy.

No offense intended, but this notion that Dame isn’t a point guard is about as dated as Bob Cousy. The role of the point guard has evolved to where all of the best ones are looking for their own shots way more often than back in the dark ages when the PG spot was limited to setting up plays and dishing the ball. Dame still does plenty of that. He’s averaging 7 assists. He got 7 last night and he probably should have had double that if his teammates could have hit the open shots he set them up for. Dame is a great PG who also happens to be a great scorer.

 

[wizenheimer]

This is why I rarely comment on issues like this.
You want to go there that’s fine.
All I said is they struggled the first 10-12 games and there were some pretty good reasons.
That’s all bro.
Not trying to make excuses for poor play or protect Stotts or Olshey or even Dame for that matter.
Just pointing out obvious issues they dealt with.
I’m giving them a pass for that couple weeks and I’m also looking forward to seeing what this team can accomplish when healthy for an extended period of time if that ever actually happens?

did you notice that I was explicitly talking about what has happened to Portland when teams go into the 'stop-Dame-at-all-cost' mode so many good teams have employed over the last half dozen years. They have continued to use that defense because it works and Portland seemingly has no counter. Somebody said, or at least implied, that would change when CJ got back. But CJ has been there thru all of those traps and doubles on Dame and it hasn't made a difference. The first 12 games of this season are just a footnote

 

[kjironman1]

did you notice that I was explicitly talking about what has happened to Portland when teams go into the 'stop-Dame-at-all-cost' mode so many good teams have employed over the last half dozen years. They have continued to use that defense because it works and Portland seemingly has no counter. Somebody said, or at least implied, that would change when CJ got back. But CJ has been there thru all of those traps and doubles on Dame and it hasn't made a difference. The first 12 games of this season are just a footnote

One more time I simply feel the first 12 games being a foot note or not isn’t a great barometer. Nor is last year or the year before that or the year before that or the year before that even.
I would like to see what this team as assembled can do for an extended period of time together if they are all healthy.
Simple. Maybe we could see 20-30 games? I would enjoy seeing that. Hope we get a chance?

 

[handiman]

No offense intended, but this notion that Dame isn’t a point guard is about as dated as Bob Cousy. The role of the point guard has evolved to where all of the best ones are looking for their own shots way more often than back in the dark ages when the PG spot was limited to setting up plays and dishing the ball. Dame still does plenty of that. He’s averaging 7 assists. He got 7 last night and he probably should have had double that if his teammates could have hit the open shots he set them up for. Dame is a great PG who also happens to be a great scorer.

You took that the wrong direction. It's not that Dame is shoot-first, it's that he doesn't have point guard instincts when trapped. Teams trap him because he's bad at countering it, not because he's the only weapon the floor.

 

[wizenheimer]

One more time I simply feel the first 12 games being a foot note or not isn’t a great barometer. Nor is last year or the year before that or the year before that or the year before that even.?

well, if you don't believe that 9 years of Stotts/Olshey, & 6 years of Dame/CJ have any relevance to this year's team there is not much to discuss

in the 9 years of the Olshey/Stotts teams, Portland is averaging 45.5 wins, a .555 winning percentage; and an anemic .357 winning percentage in the playoffs. The Dame/CJ teams are averaging 45.2 wins with a .393 rate in the playoffs

that looks a lot like what you'd expect mediocrity to look like. But whatever it's called, the trajectory seems pretty damn constant. I don't know why the results would be different this year because Aminu/Harkless have been replaced by RoCo/Jones or Curry/Turner/Layman have been replaced by Ant/Trent/Melo. Role players just don't alter the trajectory of a team that much, but sure, maybe....finally...things will be different this year

 

[blazerkor]

One more time I simply feel the first 12 games being a foot note or not isn’t a great barometer. Nor is last year or the year before that or the year before that or the year before that even.
I would like to see what this team as assembled can do for an extended period of time together if they are all healthy.
Simple. Maybe we could see 20-30 games? I would enjoy seeing that. Hope we get a chance?

That's really not how I want to spend my time as a fan. It's cool that you do but when you say that we can't use four seasons to base player movement on... you've completely lost me. I have seen that every time that Dame and CJ are together, they are less effective offensive players than they are when they play apart. They are also one of the worst defensive back courts I've ever seen from a team that makes the playoffs. I don't know why we have to keep seeing it. No one is saying trade CJ for someone who can't create offense. Do we need to start a second small guard who should be playing PG, next to Dame? No.

The fact is if they will fire Stotts and see what someone else can do with the Dame/CJ back court, I'd not like it but at least the team would have a leg to stand on but I'm not down with your idea of wait and see for five years because of injuries. I do not think we will see what another coach can do with Dame and CJ because I think eventually (hopefully soon) Olshey will get fired. I think any GM that takes over will fire Stotts and cash in CJ for what he can get. Only time will tell but if you couldn't tell, this team is testing my patience.

 

[blazerkor]

For the record, I'll keep commenting on CJ trade stuff and fire Stotts stuff but there is only one thing that matters and it's the first thing that has to happen for this team to stop treading water and swim towards a championship. FIRE OLSHEY!!!

 

[boredinsalem]

You took that the wrong direction. It's not that Dame is shoot-first, it's that he doesn't have point guard instincts when trapped. Teams trap him because he's bad at countering it, not because he's the only weapon the floor.

Exactly!

Dame and CJ both have mediocre to bad defense and mediocre distribution skills/breaking trap instincts. When they're on the floor together, there's enough collective distribution/braking trap instincts and defenses can't cheat off of either of them and you can play guys like Harkless/Aminu/Roco/Jones with them. I note that Carmelo helps a little in this respect (this is why Dame likes having him out there with him and that's when we get the best from him as a screen setter with Dame - he can either pick and pop or roll down to post up the little guy, he's just a disaster w/o Dame OR with Kanter). When only one of them is out there, you need the 2/3/4 to fill the gap of defense and playmaking while having a trusty enough shot to keep the defense honest.

The issue is that 3/4s like that are $100M a year guys.

I see three solutions, in order of difficulty acquiring.

Get a good back-up PG that plays D (e.g., Rubio) so that both of them can spend 10-15 mpg off ball and dedicate more energy to playing defense.

Get a third guy like them (e.g., Bogdanovic) so you always have two out there to share the load in Stotts' flow offense then get more rangy/defensive 3/4s. Maybe there's a way to send Trent to Atlanta and get back Bogdanovic in a three-way trade. IDK.

Get an expensive guy at 3 that can guard the best backcourt player on the other team, handle the ball, and keep the defense honest enough to not kill floor spacing. The prototype would be Jrue Holiday IMO. Good luck with that one. I think the team hoped Hood would provide some of this, and he was before the injury (less so on defense).

For kicks and giggles, Trent/Hood/Giles for Bogdanovic works but obviously Atlanta would need sweetener. I think that's too rich for Rubio.

Lillard/Bogdanovic
CJ/Bogdanovic
Jones/Little
Roco/Melo
Nurk/Kanter

I actually think that would work well, just make sure not to play Melo and Kanter at the same time ever.

 

[kjironman1]

That's really not how I want to spend my time as a fan. It's cool that you do but when you say that we can't use four seasons to base player movement on... you've completely lost me. I have seen that every time that Dame and CJ are together, they are less effective offensive players than they are when they play apart. They are also one of the worst defensive back courts I've ever seen from a team that makes the playoffs. I don't know why we have to keep seeing it. No one is saying trade CJ for someone who can't create offense. Do we need to start a second small guard who should be playing PG, next to Dame? No.

The fact is if they will fire Stotts and see what someone else can do with the Dame/CJ back court, I'd not like it but at least the team would have a leg to stand on but I'm not down with your idea of wait and see for five years because of injuries. I do not think we will see what another coach can do with Dame and CJ because I think eventually (hopefully soon) Olshey will get fired. I think any GM that takes over will fire Stotts and cash in CJ for what he can get. Only time will tell but if you couldn't tell, this team is testing my patience.

But you haven't had this team for 4 years. Not at all.
Let me clear something here. I happen to feel this team "If HEALTHY" and on the court could very well be the best team we have seen in 20 years. I think it's better than the Roy Aldridge teams. I think it's better than the Aldridge, Rolo, Batum Mathews, Lillard team. It most certainly has more talent than the last four years If Healthy.
You were here. You know what happened last year. You know what happened the year before. You also know what happened at the end of the year before that. You also know they had no business whatsoever making the playoffs 4 years ago.
I don't have to fill in the blanks here.
We all are seeing this team right now without THREE starters (Not two like many are saying). You put this team as assembled together and have them play 20 games with Nurk, CJ and Collins on this team with Lillard, Roco, Jones, Trent, Simons, Melo, Hood, Kanter and Little,Giles with Elleby and you will make some noise. (Even with Blevins....)

 

[blazerkor]

But you haven't had this team for 4 years. Not at all.
Let me clear something here. I happen to feel this team "If HEALTHY" and on the court could very well be the best team we have seen in 20 years. I think it's better than the Roy Aldridge teams. I think it's better than the Aldridge, Rolo, Batum Mathews, Lillard team. It most certainly has more talent than the last four years If Healthy.
You were here. You know what happened last year. You know what happened the year before. You also know what happened at the end of the year before that. You also know they had no business whatsoever making the playoffs 4 years ago.
I don't have to fill in the blanks here.
We all are seeing this team right now without THREE starters (Not two like many are saying). You put this team as assembled together and have them play 20 games with Nurk, CJ and Collins on this team with Lillard, Roco, Jones, Trent, Simons, Melo, Hood, Kanter and Little,Giles with Elleby and you will make some noise. (Even with Blevins....)

In a vacuum I still think you're wrong but we don't live in a vacuum. Injuries are real. This is also Olshey's attitude. The "let's wait and see what they can do when everyone is healthy" idea is flawed because of the assumption that at some point everyone will be healthy. We're waiting and waiting.

In a vacuum, where everyone is healthy, we still have to deal with the fact that Dame and CJ are an absolutely terrible defensive back court that are redundant on offense. That's not a theory that's six years of experience. This team does have enough talent on it to be a title contender but that talent has to fit together. Maybe I'm wrong and another coach could make it fit, maybe I'm wrong and Stotts could make it fit. The fact is that we don't and probably won't know. Injuries are not an excuse to put a team's core on pause for four or five seasons, the rest of the league moves on. We need to move on.

All of that said, right now I don't give a damn about CJ. Fire Olshey and see what his replacement does with this team. Maybe the replacement feels like you do.

 

[1 Eye Jack]

I’m not saying CJ is untradable, I’m just saying his value is more than most think and until you find another viable option he’s one of the most important players to this team come playoff time. While you won’t compete for championship with him without him you probably get bounced in first round.

if Ben Simmons is available I’d throw 3 first rounders out there and combination of players excluding Dame and Nurk

 

[BonesJones]

One problem that has persisted for years is that neither Dame or CJ is a point guard. I get that Stotts' flow offense is supposed to make that OK if you have a handful of playmakers out there but unless you can find a bunch of guys that are playmakers, shooters (for spacing), AND defenders that shit doesn't work.

I think it's fine when Dame and CJ are both on because there's so much shooting and ball handling between them the defense has to stay honest and guys can get some easy looks. However, when one of them is off the court we are absolutely killed with traps and none of the other guys get good looks.

It seems that many of our problems would be solved if we had a back up point guard to runt he show when one of only Dame or CJ is on the court and staggered their minutes. Our role players would benefit a ton from easier looks, we could break a damn trap, and dame/cj would be much fresher. Bonus if the PG was a good defender as well. This wouldn't leave any role for Gary or Ant, but at least Gary should a little trade value.

At this point we're ride or die Dame/CJ down the stretch, but I think there's at least 24 mpg (12 with Dame out, 12 with CJ out) out there for a PG that can run the show and play some D. Rubio seems like the perfect guy for that type of role and I'm sure the Twolves would be thrilled to dump him but he's a little spendy.

Dame isn't a PG? Huh?