Do we have the worst starting PF/C combo in the league?

[Sinobas]

No.
Do we have the worst starting PF in the league? Probably. The whole "developing Noah" meme has not worked, and will continue to not work. He's not comfortable, yet.

I know, I never bought that shit. Why aren't we starting Montero? Pat Connoughton?

 

[Draco]

Part of the difference is Vonleh RARELY gets more than 16 minutes. It's usually 6-7 in the first quarter and the same in the 3rd and that's it. The last 4 times he has played over 20 minutes went like this:

25 minutes...5/6 FG...11 points....6 rebounds...3 steals...+/- of +20
22 minutes...5/7 FG...10 points....7 rebounds...2 blocks..+/- of +0
21 minutes...3/6 FG....9 points.....4 rebounds...1/2 3-pt...+/-of +25
20 minutes...2/7 FG....4 points....5 rebounds...1 block.....+/- of +9

He also had a +25 game in 17 minutes with 9 rebounds against WAS and a +25 game in 21 minutes against GS where he played 'Small Ball' center and actually slowed down Draymond Green while picking up 9 points and 4 rebounds.

He has played 15 minutes or less 33 times this season to go with 4 games where he was inactive or did not play due to a sprained ankle. So his minutes have been quite inconsistent and certainly doesn't have a normal rotation of a starter.

Vonleh has plenty of opportunity to get more than those 16 minutes. He's usually playing so bad the coach sits him the rest of the game. As I said in my last post Jermaine proved much more in fewer opportunities at a younger age. Zach Randolph was way more effective his first two NBA seasons in similar minutes while also coming out as a Freshman.

I'm not saying Vonleh has no chance of being a long term starter; just I would put the odds against him. He was drafted 9th for a reason, and it too late to give up. But if we redid that draft today there's certainly 9 other players I take first. We're not seeing the improvement we'd hoped for. CJ has greatly exceeded this seasons expectations. Meyers has fallen far short. Vonleh is somewhere in the middle. We could call it an incomplete. It would've been real nice to get an A or B from Vonleh this season. That hasn't happened. We'll just have to see what he does next year and hope for the best. But soon I'll start to just assume he is a career backup until he proves otherwise.

 

[riverman]

Vonleh at 20 is getting a crash course in NBA starter level defense. I think it's perfect using him 16 min at tip off and spread out with spot minutes when needed. Just like Crabbe, Leonard and CJ...his first season with Stotts is all about learning to defend and he's learning. Right now I'm more concerned about Crabbe and Harkless making some shots

 

[Tunchi]

Vonleh has plenty of opportunity to get more than those 16 minutes. He's usually playing so bad the coach sits him the rest of the game. As I said in my last post Jermaine proved much more in fewer opportunities at a younger age. Zach Randolph was way more effective his first two NBA seasons in similar minutes while also coming out as a Freshman.

I'm not saying Vonleh has no chance of being a long term starter; just I would put the odds against him. He was drafted 9th for a reason, and it too late to give up. But if we redid that draft today there's certainly 9 other players I take first. We're not seeing the improvement we'd hoped for. CJ has greatly exceeded this seasons expectations. Meyers has fallen far short. Vonleh is somewhere in the middle. We could call it an incomplete. It would've been real nice to get an A or B from Vonleh this season. That hasn't happened. We'll just have to see what he does next year and hope for the best. But soon I'll start to just assume he is a career backup until he proves otherwise.

Oh he's trash compared to zbo with the opportunities Vonleh is getting. Zbo would have LOVED the babying Vonleh is getting. He does have great defense but he's beyond terrible offensively

 

[Strenuus]

Vonleh at 20 is getting a crash course in NBA starter level defense. I think it's perfect using him 16 min at tip off and spread out with spot minutes when needed. Just like Crabbe, Leonard and CJ...his first season with Stotts is all about learning to defend and he's learning. Right now I'm more concerned about Crabbe and Harkless making some shots

That is the real concern. Vonleh isn't and shouldnt be a concern. It's far too early to say which way he's going to go.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Of course our biggest weakness if up front but Noah is not ALWAYS a net negative. In fact, there have been games he had the highest or 2nd highest +/- of a anyone on the team. Part of his lack of success, is age, there by a lack of confidence and also how the Blazers use him. His job is to set screens....almost exclusively. They have been so many times he has rolled to the basket or there has been a switch and he pins a 6'2" right under the basket but the guards don't even look to get him the ball in a situation that would be very favorable. Then when he has been open all game long but not getting the ball, he finally gets a shot with no rhythm, no flow and his first natural instinct is to give it right back to a guard like every other big man on this team. He often only shoots as a second thought or when Stotts is yelling at him to shoot because he is so wide open.

That confidence will come in time. He has a good shoot, good form, release, rotation etc. He just needs more than the 1 or 2 shots he gets on some nights. He's still 20 years old yet almost every game will do something that no other big man on this team can do.....just not very often.

When I read your post, it just makes me wish that Vonleh was getting 30 minutes a night and that the coaches emphasized getting the ball to him. Even Plumlee could be used more. This team started the year with what I thought was the approach of developing individual skills and teaching the team to play together well. Now that the emphasis seems to be on making the playoffs, (wrongly in my view), that approach has been left behind and mostly now the team relies on pick and rolls by Lillard and McCollum. Yes, this is their most effective weapon but i think they should be developing other weapons, or they will never be a great team.

 

[Strenuus]

When I read your post, it just makes me wish that Vonleh was getting 30 minutes a night and that the coaches emphasized getting the ball to him. Even Plumlee could be used more. This team started the year with what I thought was the approach of developing individual skills and teaching the team to play together well. Now that the emphasis seems to be on making the playoffs, (wrongly in my view), that approach has been left behind and mostly now the team relies on pick and rolls by Lillard and McCollum. Yes, this is their most effective weapon but i think they should be developing other weapons, or they will never be a great team.

Hmm.... that's a good point.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

AC looking more like fouling Crabbe these days

Crabbe is in a bad slump. no doubt. I do think he was under-used even when he was hot; he would make about three shots in a row and never see the ball in the next 5-6 minutes. Lillard/McCollum have been ignoring him sometimes lately when he is pretty much wide open, which not only does not allow him to get back into a groove, but also he may lose confidence because he thinks they don't have confidence in him. then it just snowballs. I also noticed last night that on our last real offensive play that Lillard totally ignored a hot Henderson who was wide open and well in the vision of Lillard; instead Lillard drove into three guys and was extremely lucky to get a foul call (I could not see one on the New Orleans replay).

 

[Strenuus]

Crabbe is in a bad slump. no doubt. I do think he was under-used even when he was hot; he would make about three shots in a row and never see the ball in the next 5-6 minutes. Lillard/McCollum have been ignoring him sometimes lately when he is pretty much wide open, which not only does not allow him to get back into a groove, but also he may lose confidence because he thinks they don't have confidence in him. then it just snowballs. I also noticed last night that on our last real offensive play that Lillard totally ignored a hot Henderson who was wide open and well in the vision of Lillard; instead Lillard drove into three guys and was extremely lucky to get a foul call (I could not see one on the New Orleans replay).

To be fair, Henderson got all his points in the 2nd quarter, and our WHOLE TEAM slumped in the 4th... so Lillard took it upon himself. So...

 

[BlayZa]

in response to the OP, probably.

The way we're bringing Vonleh along, ie starting against premier plaers, playing fuck all other minutes, regularly getting rekt but sometimes playing some great D, isn't really a statistical 'Starting Five' numbers booster.

SF/PF/C is the revolving door of throwing something against a wall, something should stick..... and that stick can be Davis, Harky, Crabbe, Henderson, and sometimes even Meyers.

The rotation in the frontcourt is pretty fluid, but mostly undefined. I guess we'll see how this pans out.....

If I could lock down to a playoff rotation of a core 8
Dame
CJ
Crabbe
Aminu
Henderson
Davis
Plum
Harkless

Yeah, no Vonleh - it's just too much to have a 15 mpg 'starter' anchoring the PF spot in the playoffs. This is a tricky one as they have invested so hard in him starting this season, but FFS, let him come off the bench against come 2nd units and showcase a little... All the guys I've picked are very active all over the floor and we have a lot of cross over between front and back court with many people being able to play multiple positions. And of course, no Meyers. If we lose a critical game due to him just derping out on plays, I think I'll shoot someone.

 

[blue9]

With as disappointing as Vonleh has been, I have no doubt he could equal or better Aminu's #s if given Aminu's minutes. SF is our weak spot.

 

[KingSpeed]

in response to the OP, probably.

The way we're bringing Vonleh along, ie starting against premier plaers, playing fuck all other minutes, regularly getting rekt but sometimes playing some great D, isn't really a statistical 'Starting Five' numbers booster.

SF/PF/C is the revolving door of throwing something against a wall, something should stick..... and that stick can be Davis, Harky, Crabbe, Henderson, and sometimes even Meyers.

The rotation in the frontcourt is pretty fluid, but mostly undefined. I guess we'll see how this pans out.....

If I could lock down to a playoff rotation of a core 8
Dame
CJ
Crabbe
Aminu
Henderson
Davis
Plum
Harkless

Yeah, no Vonleh - it's just too much to have a 15 mpg 'starter' anchoring the PF spot in the playoffs. This is a tricky one as they have invested so hard in him starting this season, but FFS, let him come off the bench against come 2nd units and showcase a little... All the guys I've picked are very active all over the floor and we have a lot of cross over between front and back court with many people being able to play multiple positions. And of course, no Meyers. If we lose a critical game due to him just derping out on plays, I think I'll shoot someone.

Why no Leonard?

 

[TBpup]

With as disappointing as Vonleh has been, I have no doubt he could equal or better Aminu's #s if given Aminu's minutes. SF is our weak spot.

Per 36 minutes: .. Pts...Rebs...Ast...Stls...Blks...TO's
Amine.................10.6...8.4.....1.8....1.5....0.9.....1.9
Vonleh..................9.3...9.8.....0.9...0.8...0.8.....1.5

You're right...pretty close.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

To be fair, Henderson got all his points in the 2nd quarter, and our WHOLE TEAM slumped in the 4th... so Lillard took it upon himself. So...

Again, for me, at this time, showing your teammates that you trust them and want to include them is more important than winning a game. Who knows, stuff like that could make a difference as to whether Henderson wants to sign up with us next year.

 

[Blazerized]

I get both sides of this argument, I really do, but in my opinion there is a reason Stotts and Olshey are doing what their doing with Vonleh. We don't see what goes on behind closed doors/in practices. Everybody has been gushing about our couch/gm combo, so have a little faith that they know what their doing with the guy.

I would also like to add that zbo and jermane had the opportunity to learn and be mentored by sheed, who was a crazy dude, but undeniably an all-star at this position.

Had Vonleh gotten time to study under LA(which was what they were hoping for when they brought him in, let's not forget that little detail) he would have been able to be that backup PF who could get his minute/leaning done against other benches and garbage time. One who could do much of his training outside of the scrutinizing eye of the public.

Just my two cents.

 

[Strenuus]

Again, for me, at this time, showing your teammates that you trust them and want to include them is more important than winning a game. Who knows, stuff like that could make a difference as to whether Henderson wants to sign up with us next year.

I...

I...

What? Dame has shown nothing but that. Get out of here with this weak stuff.

 

[THE HCP]

Just remembering this...... didn't a few on here claim Aminu was better than my guy Batum?

 

[Draco]

Just remembering this...... didn't a few on here claim Aminu was better than my guy Batum?

Most still do; at the price each will be paid.

Batum is eligible for $158 million. I'll gladly take Aminu for $7 million per season. Neither is a star.

 

[THE HCP]

Most still do; at the price each will be paid.

Batum is eligible for $158 million. I'll gladly take Aminu for $7 million per season. Neither is a star.

When we start seeing the contracts being handed out my friend, we won't bat an eye at what Nic makes. Look at the disgusting money guys like Tobias Harris and Wes Mathews are making.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Oh he's trash compared to zbo with the opportunities Vonleh is getting. Zbo would have LOVED the babying Vonleh is getting. He does have great defense but he's beyond terrible offensively

again... 8/4 in 11 minutes is beyond terrible???
MAn you must want something like 25/25 in 5????

That is the real concern. Vonleh isn't and shouldnt be a concern. It's far too early to say which way he's going to go.

Sooo true.. People getting on Vonleh need to grasp the bigger picture. Harkless and Crabbe.. mostly Crabbe, should be playing better. WAAAY too many fouls from Crabbe still and his shot has disappeared.

Id like to see Crabbe move his feet more and stop reaching in so darn much on D. I think his shot selection has been decent, just not going in.

Vonleh... there is nothing to worry about. The guy is progressing very evenly and at a fair pace in my opinion. I still think he has the potential to be our starter long term. Lets give him that second and third year like CJ got with us and like AMinu, Crabbe, Leonard hav all gotten. Vonleh should improve quite a bit yet.

 

[STOMP]

A flat out No. LA would have been the same LA he was for the previous years and Dame wouldn't have been where he is and CJ wouldn't have developed as much.

definitely disagree about Lillard and CJ metamorphing post-LaMarcus, they just took on bigger roles offensively & have done what they've been capable of. First game of the season CJ had 37 points! Thats not slowly coming along/developing, thats him showing what he was capable of.

STOMP

 

[BlazerWookee]

No.

 

[Schilly]

I think the biggest question is not to find the flaws in the team, but to realize we were picked to be the 5th worst team in the league, finish with an over/under of 26 wins, and we have far exceeded that, are still in the building mode and actually have some sense of satisfaction and give credit where credit is due.

If we go per 36 and compare
Plumlee this year 12.7pts 10.9reb 3.8ast
Lopez last year 12.4pts 8.7reb 1.2ast

And we find room to complain. Then we go on to Noah Vonleh who just turned 20 and he's going for 8.6 and 9.2 per 36, while only playing 15mpg against starters only. Lamarcus averaged 14 and 8 as a 21 YO rookie...

You guys seriously need to get your eyes examined a bit because you always want to write everyone off so quickly because they aren't perfect, but these guys are playing better than they were expected to this season, yet it's all doom and gloom.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I think the biggest question is not to find the flaws in the team, but to realize we were picked to be the 5th worst team in the league, finish with an over/under of 26 wins, and we have far exceeded that, are still in the building mode and actually have some sense of satisfaction and give credit where credit is due.

If we go per 36 and compare
Plumlee this year 12.7pts 10.9reb 3.8ast
Lopez last year 12.4pts 8.7reb 1.2ast

And we find room to complain. Then we go on to Noah Vonleh who just turned 20 and he's going for 8.6 and 9.2 per 36, while only playing 15mpg against starters only. Lamarcus averaged 14 and 8 as a 21 YO rookie...

You guys seriously need to get your eyes examined a bit because you always want to write everyone off so quickly because they aren't perfect, but these guys are playing better than they were expected to this season, yet it's all doom and gloom.

You better watch it. You might be aqnnoying people for trying to rebuttal those who are picking apart the team!!!!!Your going to end up on the ignore list and the mods should monitor you loosely!!!!


HAHAHA... just kidding.

(not really)

 

[Schilly]

The best thing about it is the OP who started the the griping has Plumlee as his profile pic.

 

[illmatic99]

The best thing about it is the OP who started the the griping has Plumlee as his profile pic.

I love the guy. Think he's better than Rolo and is our third best player. Still doesn't take away from my opinion about our starting PF/C. That net negative is what is putting us in a hole every game until Ed/Meyers come in and bring us back. Think it's too late in the season to mess around with Noah. But it is ultimately still an opinion.

Can you name me 5 teams with worse starting front courts? Don't think my question is as irrational as you claim it is.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I love the guy. Think he's better than Rolo and is our third best player. Still doesn't take away from my opinion about our starting PF/C. That net negative is what is putting us in a hole every game until Ed/Meyers come in and bring us back. Think it's too late in the season to mess around with Noah. But it is ultimately still an opinion.

Can you name me 5 teams with worse starting front courts? Don't think my question is as irrational as you claim it is.

Yayuza, his point is not that its irrational or whether you are correct or not. His point is amidst all the positives going on, why focus on the few negatives right now?

This was kinda my point too. Your bringing the forum down by only picking out the negatives... Try to be more positive or find more positive topics to discuss within the negative and you will get better responses.

I'm not trying to argue, or even continue the conflict. Just trying to help YOU understand how some others feel about the constant negativity, just as you and some others made a point to let me know how annoying I can be.

I'm not the only one who feels this way, as has been pointed out by likes and others' comments. You are also not the only one who feels the same way about me (though I was this way purposefully).

You say this place has gotten shitty because you feel you cant post your opinion. You certainly can, but what makes this place shitty is not being able to respond to your post in kind without you thinking this place has gotten shitty.

I hope you see that, and with that said, I don't think I can express it any clearer for a better understanding, so I will eave it at that and move on.
I seriously meant no ill will or personal issues with you, or anyone else... Just trying to prove a point about how annoying all the negative comments can be amidst such a successful season.. Again.. I hope your level headed enough to see that.

 

[Blazinaway]

Yayuza, his point is not that its irrational or whether you are correct or not. His point is amidst all the positives going on, why focus on the few negatives right now?

This was kinda my point too. Your bringing the forum down by only picking out the negatives... Try to be more positive or find more positive topics to discuss within the negative and you will get better responses.

I'm not trying to argue, or even continue the conflict. Just trying to help YOU understand how some others feel about the constant negativity, just as you and some others made a point to let me know how annoying I can be.

I'm not the only one who feels this way, as has been pointed out by likes and others' comments. You are also not the only one who feels the same way about me (though I was this way purposefully).

You say this place has gotten shitty because you feel you cant post your opinion. You certainly can, but what makes this place shitty is not being able to respond to your post in kind without you thinking this place has gotten shitty.

I hope you see that, and with that said, I don't think I can express it any clearer for a better understanding, so I will eave it at that and move on.
I seriously meant no ill will or personal issues with you, or anyone else... Just trying to prove a point about how annoying all the negative comments can be amidst such a successful season.. Again.. I hope your level headed enough to see that.

Bottom line is that these guys have done great and far exceeded most expectations, however that does not mean as the season winds down we can't evaluate and talk about trying to upgrade our weaker positions which we need to do in order to improve further and really compete against the top teams. After the guard positions any of SF/PF/C could use to see an improvement - nothing against the guys we have there but we need to get get better at those positions and while we may see some further growth from Vonleh, I tend to think Aminu/Davis/Plumlee aren't going to get that much better or they have topped out. These guys are solid rotation guys but as starters IMO are bottom 1/2 or bottom 1/3 in the league.

 

[Schilly]

Here is my appraisal. Noah is very young he like a lot of very young bigs has a bit of an overexcited yip when he shoots, that will fade with experience, and at 20 he has planty of room to grow, I have personally noted significant but subtle improvement over the course of the season. I feel that his progress is more slow and steady wins the race. He stays very calm, almost too calm, I'd like to see him fired up a bit more. I have no reason to believe at this point though that he is a bust or not going to get better.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Yayuza, his point is not that its irrational or whether you are correct or not. His point is amidst all the positives going on, why focus on the few negatives right now?

This was kinda my point too. Your bringing the forum down by only picking out the negatives... Try to be more positive or find more positive topics to discuss within the negative and you will get better responses.

I'm not trying to argue, or even continue the conflict. Just trying to help YOU understand how some others feel about the constant negativity, just as you and some others made a point to let me know how annoying I can be.

I'm not the only one who feels this way, as has been pointed out by likes and others' comments. You are also not the only one who feels the same way about me (though I was this way purposefully).

You say this place has gotten shitty because you feel you cant post your opinion. You certainly can, but what makes this place shitty is not being able to respond to your post in kind without you thinking this place has gotten shitty.

I hope you see that, and with that said, I don't think I can express it any clearer for a better understanding, so I will eave it at that and move on.
I seriously meant no ill will or personal issues with you, or anyone else... Just trying to prove a point about how annoying all the negative comments can be amidst such a successful season.. Again.. I hope your level headed enough to see that.

It can't just be your way though. It's just as annoying for me to come on here and have everyone farting rainbows when we have obvious flaws.

I don't think anyone is disappointed with how well the team has played, at the end of the day we are fans.

Some of us just like talking about what improvements we need to take that next step.