Do you like this shining over MSG?

[NJNetz]

Just wondering.

 

[Mr. J]

Pretty stupid. It will be extra stupid if the Knicks have a successful offseason and the Nets continue to suck next year. The poster seems to also exemplify why Knicks > Nets. Knicks represent NY and the Nets will simply represent a borough that is not even the best.

Jay-Z owns like 0.5% of the Nets, too.

 

[NJNetz]

If the reports are true, Knicks will barely represent NY anymore. It's starting to seem highly likely that the top free agents will shun the Knicks. That poster is just the beginning. The Nets are taking over. Just a matter of time before Knicks fans start rooting for that other NY team.

 

[Mr. J]

If the reports are true, Knicks will barely represent NY anymore. It's starting to seem highly likely that the top free agents will shun the Knicks. That poster is just the beginning. The Nets are taking over. Just a matter of time before Knicks fans start rooting for that other NY team.

What reports? Chris Broussard? Please. The Knicks have no better of a chance of getting shut out than the Nets.

 

[NJNetz]

Here's one.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-lebronnets063010

The top contenders for James are jockeying, and those on the inside issued a warning on the eve of the summer free agency: The Nets are serious contenders for James – far outdistancing the neighboring New York Knicks who awoke to a 225-by-95-foot mural of Prokhorov and Jay-Z outside Jim Dolan’s office window at Madison Square Garden. The Knicks have already called the league office, grumbling about its arrival.

Why so serious?

 

[Mr. J]

^Speculation. The Knicks actually have a better team a long with more opportunities than the Nets, I would argue.

 

[NJNetz]

Better team? I don't think so.

Go ahead and share with me some of those opportunities.

 

[Mr. J]

Better team? I don't think so.

Go ahead and share with me some of those opportunities.

The Knicks have more cap room and a legendary franchise. We have a better, more likable coach. We have a GM. We have some of the most supportive fans in all sports. There are more financial opportunities in NY than they are in NJ, and probably a lot more if he can resurrect the Knicks than if he can resurrect the Nets.

How are the Knicks not the better team when they won 17 more games, which is a lot.

 

[NJNetz]

The Knicks have more cap room and a legendary franchise. We have a better, more likable coach. We have a GM. We have some of the most supportive fans in all sports. There are more financial opportunities in NY than they are in NJ, and probably a lot more if he can resurrect the Knicks than if he can resurrect the Nets.

How are the Knicks not the better team when they won 17 more games, which is a lot?

I don't want to steal the argument for cap space, so I'll just quote this.

Numbers are being tossed around like gold bars at the Prokhorov residence, but we're told the official number, the one they've got on the screens at NBA headquarters, is $29.99 million...just barely ahead of the Heat and the Bulls but still behind the Knicks. That's not enough to sign two max players. You need to get to $33.66 million for that. So the Nets are close but not close enough. They would have to clear another $3.67 million.

But they don't have to do it now. Let's say the Nets ask LeBron James if he would take the max, starting at $16.83 million. Sure, he says. Then, they go to Chris Bosh and say, "You in"? And he says Yes. No deal can be finalized until July 8. So what would happen and what has happened in the past is teams will wait til the last minute to work out the deals needed and then do them near simultaneously on July 8 or after.

Could it happen? Chad Ford's thinking it could. "We may be seriously underplaying the Nets as players in this. Jay-Z & Prokhorov may be more persuasive than I've given them credit for

I'm not the biggest fan of Avery Johnson, But I'll take him over Mikey. D'Antoni is an offensive coach that seems to tell his players to take the ball and run with it. Defense doesn't seem to exist to him.

Rod Thorn retiring won't be a deal breaker. If anything, the Nets will hire Jerry Colangelo who has expressed interest.

There are more financial opportunities in NY than they are in NJ, and probably a lot more if he can resurrect the Knicks than if he can resurrect the Nets.

Proky will make Lebron a billionaire. It doesn't get any better than that.

How are the Knicks not the better team when they won 17 more games, which is a lot?

And they still ended up with a shitty record. Nets went through all sorts of problems last season -- injuries, loss of identity, a beyond shitty coach, horrible attendance.

 

[Mr. J]

I don't want to steal the argument for cap space, so I'll just quote this.

If only it was that easy. NBA players very rarely, if ever, take salary cuts. Asking Bosh to take $4M less is actually a lot to ask for. Having $5M extra than the Nets in this FA class is actually very significant. I also don't understand why Jay-Z and Prokhorov are so "persuasive". They don't play basketball and have no experience making basketball-related decisions.

I'm not the biggest fan of Avery Johnson, But I'll take him over Mikey. D'Antoni is an offensive coach that seems to tell his players to take the ball and run with it. Defense doesn't seem to exist to him.

Johnson has had little longevity in the league. The knock on D'Antoni's defense is often overstated. He hasn't exactly had defensive-minded players. But even if Avery is the better coach which is (debatable), it doesn't matter. LeBron and other top-tier free agents are on record saying they enjoy playing for D'Antoni. Avery, however, is pretty unpopular amongst players.

Rod Thorn retiring won't be a deal breaker. If anything, the Nets will hire Jerry Colangelo who has expressed interest.

It doesn't have to be a deal-breaker to hurt the product. Colangelo is not a guarantee, either.

Proky will make Lebron a billionaire. It doesn't get any better than that.

Unless he literally gives LeBron money out of his own pockets, LeBron has no better chance of becoming a billionaire on the Nets roster.

And they still ended up with a shitty record. Nets went through all sorts of problems last season -- injuries, loss of identity, a beyond shitty coach, horrible attendance.

Terrible excuses. The biggest problem the Nets had is sucking. Every team deals with injury including the Knicks. The Nets attendance has always been horrible, including when they made it to the Finals in 2002 and 2003. Besides, the attendance started getting worse AFTER the Nets started losing and starting the season 2-20.

Losing 70 games is actually a pretty rare feat; the Nets are now enshrined in the pantheon of sucky NBA teams.

 

[NJNetz]

If only it was that easy. NBA players very rarely, if ever, take salary cuts. Asking Bosh to take $4M less is actually a lot to ask for. Having $5M extra than the Nets in this FA class is actually very significant. I also don't understand why Jay-Z and Prokhorov are so "persuasive". They don't play basketball and have no experience making basketball-related decisions.

For 13 years, he owned 25% of Euroleague champion CSKA Moscow, the last six through his control of Norilsk Nickel. When he was forced to sell his stake in Norilsk, he lost his piece of CSKA. During his time as owner, he turned CSKA into one of the richest and most successful teams in the Euroleague and easily the richest and most successful in Russia. His payroll regularly topped $50 million, making CSKA the highest paid team outside the NBA (and only a little less than the Nets' current cut-rate roster). Under his ownership, CSKA won two Euroleague titles and got to the championship game a third time. They dominate the Russian league.

Source

Johnson has had little longevity in the league. The knock on D'Antoni's defense is often overstated. He hasn't exactly had defensive-minded players. But even if Avery is the better coach which is (debatable), it doesn't matter. LeBron and other top-tier free agents are on record saying they enjoy playing for D'Antoni. Avery, however, is pretty unpopular amongst players.

If the Nets felt Avery would keep guys like Lebron from coming to the Nets he would've never been hired. Unpopular amongst players? I only remember hearing slight rumbles from the Dallas squad after he was fired. That can happen with any coach.

It doesn't have to be a deal-breaker to hurt the product. Colangelo is not a guarantee, either.

This doesn't warrant a real response. It won't hurt the product, and the Nets will find a suitable option to replace Thorn soon.

Unless he literally gives LeBron money out of his own pockets, LeBron has no better chance of becoming a billionaire on the Nets roster.

According to Wojnarowski, "The self-made mogul has carefully crafted a detailed and daring plan to make LeBron James a billionaire. The Nets will show him the map of the world, where the mogul has gone in China and India and Russia to make his billions and convince James that there’s a blueprint here for him too."

Source

Terrible excuses. The biggest problem the Nets had is sucking. Every team deals with injury including the Knicks. The Nets attendance has always been horrible, including when they made it to the Finals in 2002 and 2003. Besides, the attendance started getting worse AFTER the Nets started losing and starting the season 2-20.

Maybe they are terrible excuses to you, but all these things played a role in the Nets soon to be forgotten season.

 

[Mr. J]

Source

I was referring more to NBA experience. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it true that Euroleague teams don't have salary caps? If this is the case, then his success in Russia is far less of an indication that he will be successful on this level.

If the Nets felt Avery would keep guys like Lebron from coming to the Nets he would've never been hired. Unpopular amongst players? I only remember hearing slight rumbles from the Dallas squad after he was fired. That can happen with any coach.

Why does what the Nets think matter? They also thought Sean Williams would turn into a great player. Avery Johnson is generally perceived as a stricter coach, giving players less freedom. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but does seem that D'Antoni is more well-liked in the league. If players like our coach more, it gives us an advantage over your team.

This doesn't warrant a real response. It won't hurt the product, and the Nets will find a suitable option to replace Thorn soon.

Whoever they sign will not be better than Thorn. Therefore their product is worsened, no?

I'm actually surprised you've been taken in by that nonsense. LeBron is a multimillionaire and has access to plenty of financial advisers. In fact, he's met with Warren Buffet, who is actually more of a financial genius than Prokhorov. He isn't more likely to be a billionaire in Newark.

Maybe they are terrible excuses to you, but all these things played a role in the Nets soon to be forgotten season.

And I'm saying that's B.S. because most teams deal with those same factors and worse yet amass way better records.

 

[NJNetz]

I was referring more to NBA experience. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it true that Euroleague teams don't have salary caps? If this is the case, then his success in Russia is far less of an indication that he will be successful on this level.

What you're doing is questioning every little thing trying to turn it into a negative. Proky is not a stupid man. He's a self-made billionaire after all. He's going to do what it takes to succeed.

And if anything you should question your own owner. Dolan has owned the Knicks for what, 10 years now? Seems like all that experience did nothing for him and he's still as incompetent as can be.

Why does what the Nets think matter? They also thought Sean Williams would turn into a great player. Avery Johnson is generally perceived as a stricter coach, giving players less freedom. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but does seem that D'Antoni is more well-liked in the league. If players like our coach more, it gives us an advantage over your team.

Where are you getting your information? Where has it been said that D'Antoni is more well-liked? Being strict means nothing. Gregg Poppovich is a very strict coach. Do his players not like him?

And I've seen some Knicks games where D'Antoni was screaming his head off at his players. He doesn't seem to be that gentle and nice man you're referring to.

Whoever they sign will not be better than Thorn. Therefore their product is worsened, no?

Thorn is a good GM but he has also proved to be quite disappointing. Over the past decade Thorn has failed to provide the Nets with the necessary bench support.

He won't be that difficult to replace.

And I'm saying that's B.S. because most teams deal with those same factors and worse yet amass way better records.

Name one team the dealt with the same factors.

 

[Mr. J]

What you're doing is questioning every little thing trying to turn it into a negative. Proky is not a stupid man. He's a self-made billionaire after all. He's going to do what it takes to succeed.

And if anything you should question your own owner. Dolan has owned the Knicks for what, 10 years now? Seems like all that experience did nothing for him and he's still as incompetent as can be.

You are really overrating the owner's significance. The fact that he is a self-made billionaire is completely irrelevant. Because he has had success outside the NBA is not grounds for claiming: "He's going to do what it takes to succeed".

Where are you getting your information? Where has it been said that D'Antoni is more well-liked? Being strict means nothing. Gregg Poppovich is a very strict coach. Do his players not like him?

Dirk: "I wish we had communicated a little more. We all know Avery ran a little dictatorship here. I think this league is still a league of players, not a coaches league."

"Avery had a really strong will of what should go on out there, and he controlled the game a lot. I don't think there was enough movement going on. People were just sitting on our stuff, especially in the playoffs. We just couldn't score enough."

Now this, from what I hear, is the overall perception of Johnson. You yourself said you didn't want him and he was a "control freak". I don't think Popovich is a dictator. He's well-liked amongst players and has a great sense of humor.

I can't conclusively prove that players like D'Antoni better, but there are generally more positive news about D'Antoni than there is about Johnson. D'Antoni is especially well-liked by the players in Team USA - players we are trying to get.

And I've seen some Knicks games where D'Antoni was screaming his head off at his players. He doesn't seem to be that gentle and nice man you're referring to.

I hope this was a joke. Every good coach screams at players at least some of the times.

Thorn is a good GM but he has also proved to be quite disappointing. Over the past decade Thorn has failed to provide the Nets with the necessary bench support.

He won't be that difficult to replace.

But he has kept them pretty competitive throughout the decade and they made the Finals twice. I don't think there are many, if anyone available as good on the market.

Name one team the dealt with the same factors.

Washington, New York, Indiana, LA Clippers, Hornets to name a few.

 

[NJNetz]

You are really overrating the owner's significance. The fact that he is a self-made billionaire is completely irrelevant. Because he has had success outside the NBA is not grounds for claiming: "He's going to do what it takes to succeed".

The only reason you think I'm overrating Proky's significance, because once again, your owner is Dolan. And he has a hard time getting things done.

Dirk: "I wish we had communicated a little more. We all know Avery ran a little dictatorship here. I think this league is still a league of players, not a coaches league."

"Avery had a really strong will of what should go on out there, and he controlled the game a lot. I don't think there was enough movement going on. People were just sitting on our stuff, especially in the playoffs. We just couldn't score enough."

Now this, from what I hear, is the overall perception of Johnson. You yourself said you didn't want him and he was a "control freak". I don't think Popovich is a dictator. He's well-liked amongst players and has a great sense of humor.

I can't conclusively prove that players like D'Antoni better, but there are generally more positive news about D'Antoni than there is about Johnson. D'Antoni is especially well-liked by the players in Team USA - players we are trying to get.

But you know what, no one was complaining when the Mavs were heading to the NBA finals. It's when the Mavs began to fail their expectations that problems arose.

Yeah Avery might still be a bit of a control freak, but you know what, the Nets squad might need that.

But he has kept them pretty competitive throughout the decade and they made the Finals twice. I don't think there are many, if anyone available as good on the market.

No, it was Kidd that kept the Nets competitive.

Washington, New York, Indiana, LA Clippers, Hornets to name a few.

Washington -- Still had Jamison and Butler most of the year.
New York -- What the Knicks go through exactly? Did they have a horrible coach? Injuries?
Clippers -- Really? Quite a solid team with some of the injuries they had
Hornets -- Paul was a big loss. And then Collison emerged, and made the Hornets close to competitive again.

 

[Lost One]

Well apparently Lebron came out of the meeting with NY and was not impressed, saying that it felt "unprepared."

Jay-Z offered Lebron his own clothing line and fragrance. lol

 

[Mr. J]

The only reason you think I'm overrating Proky's significance, because once again, your owner is Dolan. And he has a hard time getting things done.

Beautiful ad hominem argument. The point is Proky's influence is less significant: he doesn't play, coach, or handle transactions. The NBA is also totally different from what he was dealing with before since we have a salary cap. You conveniently neglected that point.

But you know what, no one was complaining when the Mavs were heading to the NBA finals. It's when the Mavs began to fail their expectations that problems arose.

Yeah Avery might still be a bit of a control freak, but you know what, the Nets squad might need that.

The point is that when it comes to coaching, Knicks are ahead of the Nets, and probably by a good margin.

No, it was Kidd that kept the Nets competitive.

Who traded for Kidd? Who surrounded Kidd with the pieces to keep the Nets competitive?

Washington -- Still had Jamison and Butler most of the year.
New York -- What the Knicks go through exactly? Did they have a horrible coach? Injuries?
Clippers -- Really? Quite a solid team with some of the injuries they had
Hornets -- Paul was a big loss. And then Collison emerged, and made the Hornets close to competitive again.

Washington - Arenas, their best player and a top 10 player when healthy, was out most the year. Further, the gun incident was by far the biggest distraction in the league.

Knicks - Not so much last year, but certainly the last few years the Knicks have had a combination of terrible coaching, distractions, injuries, and still haven't lost 70 games or even 60 games.

Hornets - Paul, arguably the best point guard in the league, was injured for about half the season. That injury is huge.

Clippers - Eric Gordon missed some time and Blake Griffin missed the entire season.

There is no excuse for the Nets being this bad. It's not like they were completely decimated by injuries. Devin Harris was injured, but he played most of the season (64 games). Besides, he has a history of getting injured anyway: last season he played 64 games, the year before he played 69 games, and the year before that he played 65 games. He's right around his season average of games played. Brook Lopez was their best player last year played all 82 games. The problem wasn't really injuries - the problem was really that they sucked. Winning 12 games is a complete joke and their is no excuse if your best players are playing 60+ games.

 

[Mr. J]

Well apparently Lebron came out of the meeting with NY and was not impressed, saying that it felt "unprepared."

Jay-Z offered Lebron his own clothing line and fragrance. lol

There have been multiple reports saying that this report was full of crap.

 

[NJNetz]

Beautiful ad hominem argument. The point is Proky's influence is less significant: he doesn't play, coach, or handle transactions. The NBA is also totally different from what he was dealing with before since we have a salary cap. You conveniently neglected that point.

But he's certainly going to put pressure on his GM to put forth a team that can win. That's the type of person Proky is. Not to mention he's Russian. He wants to be successful in every aspect.

The point is that when it comes to coaching, Knicks are ahead of the Nets, and probably by a good margin.

I disagree. But we shall see.

Who traded for Kidd? Who surrounded Kidd with the pieces to keep the Nets competitive?

You missed the point. Thorn made a great trade for Kidd, props to him. But ever since that blockbuster trade, he had failed to provide the Nets -- more importantly Kidd with at least a decent bench.

There is no excuse for the Nets being this bad. It's not like they were completely decimated by injuries. Devin Harris was injured, but he played most of the season (64 games). Besides, he has a history of getting injured anyway: last season he played 64 games, the year before he played 69 games, and the year before that he played 65 games. He's right around his season average of games played. Brook Lopez was their best player last year played all 82 games. The problem wasn't really injuries - the problem was really that they sucked. Winning 12 games is a complete joke and their is no excuse if your best players are playing 60+ games.

There are excuses to the Nets bad season, and if you don't wish to accept them, that's fine. It won't change anything.

We will see who wins the free agency game -- Knicks or Nets. And who sucks next season.

I still find it laughable how you seemed to take the Nets out of the free agency game.

 

[Mr. J]

But he's certainly going to put pressure on his GM to put forth a team that can win. That's the type of person Proky is. Not to mention he's Russian. He wants to be successful in every aspect.

If an incompetent GM is at the helm, pressure won't better his decisions. In fact, it can easily lead to bad free agent signings that only slightly improve the team's record at present, but severely hamper the team's long-term progress. Prokhorov owning the team is not as big a deal as you are making it out to be.

I disagree. But we shall see.

I think it's fair to say D'Antoni is more well-liked by players than Avery Johnson, but we just have to agree to disagree then.

You missed the point. Thorn made a great trade for Kidd, props to him. But ever since that blockbuster trade, he had failed to provide the Nets -- more importantly Kidd with at least a decent bench.

Every team has weaknesses, and with a limited amount of assets Thorn managed to turn a lottery team into a contender for several consecutive seasons. Even if he didn't provide the Nets with a good enough bench, most importantly, and this is the main point, he did an excellent job when he was in charge.

There are excuses to the Nets bad season, and if you don't wish to accept them, that's fine. It won't change anything.

There are excuses - just not good ones. They had some injury problems, but their best player in Brook Lopez played all 82 games, and Harris played 64 games. The players who missed substantial time were Simmons, Hayes, Yi, and Dooling. If you say the Nets lost 70 games because these scrubs were injured then you are fooling yourself.

We will see who wins the free agency game -- Knicks or Nets. And who sucks next season.

I still find it laughable how you seemed to take the Nets out of the free agency game.

Find me one post where I said the Nets were out of the free agency game. All I said was LeBron has a better chance at success both on and off the court playing with the Knicks than he does with the Nets. Any team with cap space is usually never out of the free agency game.