Domestic Terrorists attemping to derail the Public Option

[deception]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/opinion/07krugman.html?_r=1

Some commentators have tried to play down the mob aspect of these scenes, likening the campaign against health reform to the campaign against Social Security privatization back in 2005. But there’s no comparison. I’ve gone through many news reports from 2005, and while anti-privatization activists were sometimes raucous and rude, I can’t find any examples of congressmen shouted down, congressmen hanged in effigy, congressmen surrounded and followed by taunting crowds.

And I can’t find any counterpart to the death threats at least one congressman has received.

So this is something new and ugly. What’s behind it?

Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, has compared the scenes at health care town halls to the “Brooks Brothers riot” in 2000 — the demonstration that disrupted the vote count in Miami and arguably helped send George W. Bush to the White House. Portrayed at the time as local protesters, many of the rioters were actually G.O.P. staffers flown in from Washington.

But Mr. Gibbs is probably only half right. Yes, well-heeled interest groups are helping to organize the town hall mobs. Key organizers include two Astroturf (fake grass-roots) organizations: FreedomWorks, run by the former House majority leader Dick Armey, and a new organization called Conservatives for Patients’ Rights.

The latter group, by the way, is run by Rick Scott, the former head of Columbia/HCA, a for-profit hospital chain. Mr. Scott was forced out of that job amid a fraud investigation; the company eventually pleaded guilty to charges of overbilling state and federal health plans, paying $1.7 billion — yes, that’s “billion” — in fines. You can’t make this stuff up.

There was a telling incident at a town hall held by Representative Gene Green, D-Tex. An activist turned to his fellow attendees and asked if they “oppose any form of socialized or government-run health care.” Nearly all did. Then Representative Green asked how many of those present were on Medicare. Almost half raised their hands.

Now, people who don’t know that Medicare is a government program probably aren’t reacting to what President Obama is actually proposing. They may believe some of the disinformation opponents of health care reform are spreading, like the claim that the Obama plan will lead to euthanasia for the elderly. (That particular claim is coming straight from House Republican leaders.) But they’re probably reacting less to what Mr. Obama is doing, or even to what they’ve heard about what he’s doing, than to who he is.

That is, the driving force behind the town hall mobs is probably the same cultural and racial anxiety that’s behind the “birther” movement, which denies Mr. Obama’s citizenship. Senator Dick Durbin has suggested that the birthers and the health care protesters are one and the same; we don’t know how many of the protesters are birthers, but it wouldn’t be surprising if it’s a substantial fraction.

And cynical political operators are exploiting that anxiety to further the economic interests of their backers.

Does this sound familiar? It should: it’s a strategy that has played a central role in American politics ever since Richard Nixon realized that he could advance Republican fortunes by appealing to the racial fears of working-class whites.

Many people hoped that last year’s election would mark the end of the “angry white voter” era in America. Indeed, voters who can be swayed by appeals to cultural and racial fear are a declining share of the electorate.

But right now Mr. Obama’s backers seem to lack all conviction, perhaps because the prosaic reality of his administration isn’t living up to their dreams of transformation. Meanwhile, the angry right is filled with a passionate intensity.

And if Mr. Obama can’t recapture some of the passion of 2008, can’t inspire his supporters to stand up and be heard, health care reform may well fail.

 

[porky88]

I wouldn't call them domestic terrorists. I think that is ridiculous actually, but the definition is somewhat up for interpretation but considering the America we live in....

I do think that these people are opportunists though trying to change the public perception of President Obama who's popularity is slipping, but still solid. They're clearly republicans and probably the Hannity or Limbaugh wing that want to make headlines. It's nothing more than a sham. They're planted there by republican organizations and yes dems have done this stuff too, but the point remains the same. Their plants.

Now not to say that their aren't people who have concerns over the possible health care plan. I think majority of Americans probably do, but they also aren't going around and shouting at congressman and senators etc. Most level-headed Americans would sit down and talk and express their opinion in a mature manner or even debate it.

It's just ridiculous that the maturity level of these people is that of a little leaguer cheering on his team from the dugout. Honestly that's kind of what it reminds me of in away. Anyone who played little league knows what I'm talking about...

The birthers on the other hand are kind of dangerous IMO. When does one of these people try to do something stupid because they thank their saving the country? Those people are ignorant and in denial that it's 2009 and not 1909. Racism probably plays a role too.

 

[maxiep]

What is this myth that people are showing up at town hall meetings and shouting their message? The clips I've seen are people relating their concerns and being shouted down by union members. I'm certain there have been some nutty people on the fringe, but those would be the exception and not the rule.

 

[deception]

What is this myth that people are showing up at town hall meetings and shouting their message? The clips I've seen are people relating their concerns and being shouted down by union members. I'm certain there have been some nutty people on the fringe, but those would be the exception and not the rule.

so astroturf and freedomworks dont exist? there is an orchestrated attempt by healhtcare kleptocrats and conservatives to organize these domestic terrorists

 

[deception]

back to the domestic terrorist angle: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/10/gabrielle-giffords-town-h_n_255656.html

Town hall disruptions around the country have led to some outbreaks of violence. Unions participating in town halls have received death threats. At an event held by Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) last week, the threat of violence led her aides to call the police after one attendee dropped a gun.

"Yelling and screaming is counterproductive," she told the Sierra Vista Herald at a Congress on Your Corner event last week. There, one visitor dropped a gun at the meet n' greet held in a Douglas Safeway, her staff says.


That has aides, who called police to the event, concerned for her safety.

"We have never felt the need before to notify law enforcement when we hold these events," said spokesman C.J. Karamargin.

One of the callers to the Service Employees International Union said, "I suggest you tell your people to calm down, act like American citizens, and stop trying to repress people's First Amendment rights... That, or you all are gonna come up against the Second Amendment."

 

[maxiep]

so astroturf and freedomworks dont exist? there is an orchestrated attempt by healhtcare kleptocrats and conservatives to organize these domestic terrorists

I went to a town hall meeting this weekend for Ed Purlmutter. I'm not a member of his district, so I felt it wasn't my place to ask a question. Having observed who was organized and who wasn't, it's clear that it was the union members--same T-shirts, same chants, same manufactured signs. The people that asked questions about healthcare asked specific questions quietly and reasonably. There was one elderly woman who began crying during her question talking about her fear her husband wouldn't continue to receive care, but that was about as much emotion as was demonstrated on the side of those against the House health care plan. Afterward, the union members got into it with a small group of people, but that's about it.

But you do a really good job reciting Democratic talking points.

 

[porky88]

What is this myth that people are showing up at town hall meetings and shouting their message? The clips I've seen are people relating their concerns and being shouted down by union members. I'm certain there have been some nutty people on the fringe, but those would be the exception and not the rule.

Oh come on. You know very well that right wing groups are behind this much like left wing groups were behind anti-war demonstrations back a few years ago. These groups have connections to the parties. There are going to be some good town halls, but a lot of them are anything but productive and rational. Most are political.

Plus even if there was debate, congressman and senators aren't listening. Their not changing their minds on anything. They're going to vote on whatever helps them get re-elected and most of them already know what that is. It's all a bunch of BS with the exception of a few.

 

[maxiep]

Oh come on. You know very well that right wing groups are behind this much like left wing groups were behind anti-war demonstrations back a few years ago. These groups have connections to the parties. There are going to be some good town halls, but a lot of them are anything but productive and rational. Most are political.

I disagree. You can tell when something is orchestrated, and this sentiment is real. People don't like the idea of a single-payer system, because for all the dissatisfaction with the insurance issue, people by and large like the care they have.

If you want to see organization, check out how the pro-Obamacare forces are organizing. They wear the same t-shirts, have the same signs and chant in unison.

Plus even if there was debate, congressman and senators aren't listening. Their not changing their minds on anything. They're going to vote on whatever helps them get re-elected and most of them already know what that is. It's all a bunch of BS with the exception of a few.

Okay, so it's wasted effort. Why does it bother so many? It bothers them because this is a bill designed in the bubble of Washington--I lived there for almost a decade, and I can tell you that bubble exists--and they're surprised at the home grown rage over this bill. The surprise is real, and they're not equipped to handle it.

 

[deception]

There was one elderly woman who began crying during her question talking about her fear her husband wouldn't continue to receive care, but that was about as much emotion as was demonstrated on the side of those against the House health care plan. Afterward, the union members got into it with a small group of people, but that's about it.

her concern is completely unjustified. the fear tactics are clearly working.

 

[maxiep]

her concern is completely unjustified. the fear tactics are clearly working.

Go ahead. Prove it.

 

[deception]

Go ahead. Prove it.

no, im almost certain that obama isnt going to offer up euthanasia for the elderly like hitler did for the mentally retarded. you're no better than glenn beck if u endorse that crap.

 

[maxiep]

no, im almost certain that obama isnt going to offer up euthanasia for the elderly like hitler did for the mentally retarded. you're no better than glenn beck if u endorse that crap.

It doesn't take euthanizing patients. It just takes discontinuing care because it's too expensive.

 

[deception]

It doesn't take euthanizing patients. It just takes discontinuing care because it's too expensive.

so now your concerned about cost?

 

[maxiep]

so now your concerned about cost?

Wow, reading comprehension fail on your part.

Why don't you take a second to learn about Ezekiel Emanuel.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07242009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/deadly_doctors_180941.htm

 

[deception]

Wow, reading comprehension fail on your part.

Why don't you take a second to learn about Ezekiel Emanuel.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07242009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/deadly_doctors_180941.htm

u cite an opinion piece from the new york post as your defense? did this same columnist break the paternity details of michael jackson kids as well? give me a break!!! healthcare is already rationed in america by price and that is prohibitive in nature.

 

[porky88]

I disagree. You can tell when something is orchestrated, and this sentiment is real. People don't like the idea of a single-payer system, because for all the dissatisfaction with the insurance issue, people by and large like the care they have.

If you want to see organization, check out how the pro-Obamacare forces are organizing. They wear the same t-shirts, have the same signs and chant in unison.



Okay, so it's wasted effort. Why does it bother so many? It bothers them because this is a bill designed in the bubble of Washington--I lived there for almost a decade, and I can tell you that bubble exists--and they're surprised at the home grown rage over this bill. The surprise is real, and they're not equipped to handle it.

Obama is beginning his counter attack to this. That's what you'll begin to see. It's all politics.

Obama was elected and is doing exactly what he said he would. Even in the primaries he was preaching universal health care for everyone. This is not surprising to anyone or shouldn't be.

Most of those people aren't supporters of him and never will be. Yes there are some exceptions just like some republicans didn't like Bush. There were a few, but not many. Most of these people are protesting to see Obama's presidency fail.

A protester said watch Glenn Beck for the facts and a republican congressman replied no that's the last thing you should do. He promotes fear he said. The entire room proceeded to boo like crazy. Like they were Bears fans at a Packer game or something.

Those people are there with an agenda and they aren't organizing this on their own. I think they're plants from the way right-wing of the party. That's the organizations getting these people out there.

 

[maxiep]

u cite an opinion piece from the new york post as your defense? did this same columnist break the paternity details of michael jackson kids as well? give me a break!!! healthcare is already rationed in america by price and that is prohibitive in nature.

I'm glad you picked up on the fact it was an opinion piece. However, opinions have to be based on facts and data. What do you think of Dr. Emanuel's philosophy? I think overall it makes sense for the society, but robs us of our soul. And if I were old and had to rely on public healthcare, I'd be scared shitless.

 

[maxiep]

Obama is beginning his counter attack to this. That's what you'll begin to see. It's all politics.

Obama was elected and is doing exactly what he said he would. Even in the primaries he was preaching universal health care for everyone. This is not surprising to anyone or shouldn't be.

Most of those people aren't supporters of him and never will be. Yes there are some exceptions just like some republicans didn't like Bush. There were a few, but not many. Most of these people are protesting to see Obama's presidency fail.

A protester said watch Glenn Beck for the facts and a republican congressman replied no that's the last thing you should do. He promotes fear he said. The entire room proceeded to boo like crazy. Like they were Bears fans at a Packer game or something.

Those people are there with an agenda and they aren't organizing this on their own. I think they're plants from the way right-wing of the party. That's the organizations getting these people out there.

I know you may find this fact hard to believe, but 46% of the country didn't vote for President Obama. There are actually people--without being organized by the "way right-wing"--who didn't like what they heard from him.

As for people voting for President Obama because of the specificity of his polices, that's a silly position to hold. There was a huge vote against President Bush, a huge vote because he is half-black and most others just wanted to vote for Hope and Change. Very few voted for him because of his actual policy prescriptions.

It seems at this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[barfo]

However, opinions have to be based on facts and data.

Several hundred thousand posts on S2 beg to differ.

barfo

 

[deception]

I know you may find this fact hard to believe, but 46% of the country didn't vote for President Obama. There are actually people--without being organized by the "way right-wing"--who didn't like what they heard from him.

As for people voting for President Obama because of the specificity of his polices, that's a silly position to hold. There was a huge vote against President Bush, a huge vote because he is half-black and most others just wanted to vote for Hope and Change. Very few voted for him because of his actual policy prescriptions.

It seems at this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

yeah, dumbarse black ppl only vote for their own kind. you're kind of neglecting the fact that african americans never vote republican irrespective of who the democrats have on the ballot. why? because the republicans are the party of bigots (i.e. 42% of republicans believe obama was born in kenya). and fyi- if u were to take out the rural redneck vote- obama would have won in a landslide. obama won the hispanic (growing) as well as university graduate (growing) vote, while mccain won the senior citizen (dieing off) as well as the evangelical vote. these trends signal disaster for your party, in fact, i declare the republicans a footnote in history.

 

[maxiep]

Several hundred thousand posts on S2 beg to differ.

barfo

LOL. repped.

 

[maxiep]

yeah, dumbarse black ppl only vote for their own kind. you're kind of neglecting the fact that african americans never vote republican irrespective of who the democrats have on the ballot.

Wow, which one of us is the racist? You assume I meant black people. In fact, there was a sizable portion across the country who felt that voting for Obama would be a way to heal our racial wounds, regardless of race.

The lack of black penetration by Republicans is a problem for that party. It's because they seem to look to intent rather than results. Democrats claim to care, but 40 years of well-meaning policies that haven't worked and in fact have made the plight of the black person in America worse should point to the fact that perhaps they shouldn't just give their votes to one party. If they wanted to truly exercise their power, they'd threaten to back another party. Right now, the Democrats take them for granted.

why? because the republicans are the party of bigots

Which US Senator was a Grand Wizard in the KKK? Hint: He's not a Republican. Which former US Senator called Obama, "bright, articulate and clean" because it's so surprising that a black person could speak without using Ebonics? He also said he was surprised to walk into a 7-11 and not see an Indian. Hint: He's now our Vice President.

I would argue the Party that engages in identity politics is the true racist party.

(i.e. 42% of republicans believe obama was born in kenya).

link?

and fyi- if u were to take out the rural redneck vote- obama would have won in a landslide.

I hate to break it to you, but those people you just described make up one of the largest voting blocs in this country. It's like saying, "Well, if you take out fans of hockey, Elizabeth May would be PM."

obama won the hispanic (growing) as well as university graduate (growing) vote, while mccain won the senior citizen (dieing off) as well as the evangelical vote. these trends signal disaster for your party, in fact, i declare the republicans a footnote in history.

Since I don't belong to a political party, I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Denny Crane]

Bush's medicare drug program and Obama's ridiculous deficit spending are putting us in so deep a hole that only a moron would contemplate adding a pathetic and money drain of a program at this time.

Think about it, the medicare program is already killing our financial position.

This deficit spending is going to kill more than Medicare and any proposed national health care program, it's going to kill social security, our ability to fill potholes in our roads, keep the roofs on our schools from leaking, etc.

Obama's really working a miracle unthought of. Republicans tried to do it, but never could. That is, kill Social Security.

 

[deception]

Wow, which one of us is the racist? You assume I meant black people. In fact, there was a sizable portion across the country who felt that voting for Obama would be a way to heal our racial wounds, regardless of race.

The lack of black penetration by Republicans is a problem for that party. It's because they seem to look to intent rather than results. Democrats claim to care, but 40 years of well-meaning policies that haven't worked and in fact have made the plight of the black person in America worse should point to the fact that perhaps they shouldn't just give their votes to one party. If they wanted to truly exercise their power, they'd threaten to back another party. Right now, the Democrats take them for granted.



Which US Senator was a Grand Wizard in the KKK? Hint: He's not a Republican. Which former US Senator called Obama, "bright, articulate and clean" because it's so surprising that a black person could speak without using Ebonics? He also said he was surprised to walk into a 7-11 and not see an Indian. Hint: He's now our Vice President.

I would argue the Party that engages in identity politics is the true racist party.



link?



I hate to break it to you, but those people you just described make up one of the largest voting blocs in this country. It's like saying, "Well, if you take out fans of hockey, Elizabeth May would be PM."



Since I don't belong to a political party, I have no idea what you're talking about.

lets me work backwards here.

if i was a republican, i would also try my darnedest to disassociate myself from the failed policies the repbulican party.

did u know that elizabeth may is related to the bush family? as for the voting bloc of rural voters- its losing its arithmetic advantage over hispanics every day. plus, ive heard there is a real brain drain in these places where freedom and incest run abated because there simply isnt jobs for professionalss. as a consequence- their best and brightest are moving to the city. these places are simply failed societies that will perish because the locals are too stupid to evolve.

i was wrong, half of the republicans are conspiracy theorists
link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/02/obama-birthers-us-presidency

First, the birthers are anything but a fringe group. They have found a sizeable audience for their fantasy. A poll last week showed that more than half of Republicans either believe Obama was not born in the US (28%) or are not sure (30%). Mainstream anchors on CNN and Fox routinely give them credibility. So far, 11 Republican congressmen have signed a "birther bill" that would demand a birth certificate from all future presidents. They may have no more credibility than the 9/11 truthers or those who denied the moon landings, but they certainly have more reach.

as for black ppl voting overwhelmingly democrat- in recent history, where can u find an instance where republicans stood with black ppl? not on the civil rights bill, certainly not on affirmative action, not even on divisive issues between police officers and black men and they even have the audacity to call obama a reverse racist. republicans simply dont give a shit about minorities. take the sotomoyar confirmation hearings- her conformation was a foregone conclusion because of the democratic majority yet they still questioned her in patronizing manner; called her a reverse racist and almost all voted against her. confirming her would have earned the republicans some traction in the latino community but they managed to do the opposite.

i do agree with u that well intentioned policies have failed the black community. for instance awarding single mothers at the expense of married families has contributed to the disintegration of black families. however, that trend irrespective of policy is pervasive throughout the west, just look at the divorce rates. and if republicans want the black vote- they need to engage african americans and stop pandering to rush limbaugh and his cult of domestic terrorists.

 

[Denny Crane]

as for black ppl voting overwhelmingly democrat- in recent history, where can u find an instance where republicans stood with black ppl? not on the civil rights bill, certainly not on affirmative action, not even on divisive issues between police officers and black men and they even have the audacity to call obama a reverse racist.

School vouchers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/09/us/young-blacks-turn-to-school-vouchers-as-civil-rights-issue.html


Young Blacks Turn To School Vouchers As Civil Rights Issue

By JODI WILGOREN

Published: Monday, October 9, 2000


When Cory A. Booker talks about fixing America's school system, he invokes the words of Malcolm X: by any means necessary.

To Mr. Booker, 31, an African-American Democrat elected to the Newark City Council in 1998, that means lobbying state lawmakers for smaller classes and teacher testing. It means organizing book drives for the schools in his impoverished neighborhood, and arranging for an insurance company to create a community health clinic at one of them.

And it also means the unbridled backing of the contentious notion of giving parents vouchers financed by taxpayers to send their children to private schools.

''It's one of the last remaining major barriers to equality of opportunity in America, the fact that we have inequality of education,'' Mr. Booker explained. ''I don't necessarily want to depend on the government to educate my children -- they haven't done a good job in doing that. Only if we return power to the parents can we find a way to fix the system.''

Mr. Booker, a Rhodes scholar who quotes Frederick Douglass and Langston Hughes in his speeches, is part of a growing cadre of young blacks who have embraced vouchers, and school choice more broadly, as a central civil rights issue for their generation.

While established African-American organizations have been among the leaders of the opposition to school vouchers, arguing that they would decimate the public school system, maverick black politicians and community organizers are increasingly the public face of the pro-voucher movement financed largely by white Republican businessmen.

 

[deception]

obama favours vouchers for private schools alongside a public system from my recollection

 

[Denny Crane]

You asked, you got answered.

Our education system was once the envy of the world, now it's not highly ranked among nations. Those measurements are fair, unlike the biased ones about health care.

I've never seen anything more disgraceful than in the democratic party machine towns I lived in, where the elected officials funneled school funding away from inner city (black neighborhood) schools to suburban ones where their campaign donors live.

OK, I have seen things more disgraceful from those same elected officials. Like building a ghetto/project, inviting black people to move in, then building freeways around them to keep the black people segregated and poor. Then they let the buildings run down to the point where the good people who lived there had to walk up 10 flights of stairs with their groceries since the elevators stopped working and never got repaired. The elected officials didn't care much about the lead paint peeling off the walls.

And that's in Obama's home town (Chicago), a northern city. In Northern California, the divisions are both physical (freeways) and natural (the Bay). The same story is true of cities like Detroit and Philadelphia and New York City.

All this started in the 1960s, too, when the Democrats supposedly became champions of those black folks.

Do you at all wonder why these Democrats oppose school vouchers? They argue they don't want money going to parochial schools, yet they don't mind college grants to go to Notre Dame. They don't even consider vouchers that are good in only public schools, so those inner city kids can go to the good schools in the suburbs.

 

[porky88]

I know you may find this fact hard to believe, but 46% of the country didn't vote for President Obama. There are actually people--without being organized by the "way right-wing"--who didn't like what they heard from him.

As for people voting for President Obama because of the specificity of his polices, that's a silly position to hold. There was a huge vote against President Bush, a huge vote because he is half-black and most others just wanted to vote for Hope and Change. Very few voted for him because of his actual policy prescriptions.

It seems at this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

He's President though. How different would it have been if Gore beat Bush? If Nixon beat Kennedy? If Carter beat Reagan?

A faction of the country will always dislike a President because their guy didn't make it.

These people have absolutely every right to be upset with Obama. That's their right as an American, but they can also use their freedom in 2010 and 2012 to change what he's done.

Again, I'm sure people like you, DC, and even myself have concerns about this. I'm young and having to pay for this down the road is going to be a pain in the butt especially if the system doesn't get better. However, neither of us would be acting like this if we were at a town hall. I know I wouldn't. I would hope debate can happen and I think it can assuming the right people are there.

You have people shouting at Senators and Congressman at town halls. I'm supposed to believe that an independent or someone who has little to no party affiliation is behind this?

I just don't believe that.

 

[deception]

You asked, you got answered.

Our education system was once the envy of the world, now it's not highly ranked among nations. Those measurements are fair, unlike the biased ones about health care.

I've never seen anything more disgraceful than in the democratic party machine towns I lived in, where the elected officials funneled school funding away from inner city (black neighborhood) schools to suburban ones where their campaign donors live.

OK, I have seen things more disgraceful from those same elected officials. Like building a ghetto/project, inviting black people to move in, then building freeways around them to keep the black people segregated and poor. Then they let the buildings run down to the point where the good people who lived there had to walk up 10 flights of stairs with their groceries since the elevators stopped working and never got repaired. The elected officials didn't care much about the lead paint peeling off the walls.

And that's in Obama's home town (Chicago), a northern city. In Northern California, the divisions are both physical (freeways) and natural (the Bay). The same story is true of cities like Detroit and Philadelphia and New York City.

All this started in the 1960s, too, when the Democrats supposedly became champions of those black folks.

Do you at all wonder why these Democrats oppose school vouchers? They argue they don't want money going to parochial schools, yet they don't mind college grants to go to Notre Dame. They don't even consider vouchers that are good in only public schools, so those inner city kids can go to the good schools in the suburbs.

that was a tangent. the republicans dovetailing themselves to the voucher issue was a marriage of convenience not altruism for black ppl. im sure republicans are lining their pockets with private school money just like the democrats are doing the same with teacher union cash.

 

[Denny Crane]

He's President though. How different would it have been if Gore beat Bush? If Nixon beat Kennedy? If Carter beat Reagan?

A faction of the country will always dislike a President because their guy didn't make it.

These people have absolutely every right to be upset with Obama. That's their right as an American, but they can also use their freedom in 2010 and 2012 to change what he's done.

Again, I'm sure people like you, DC, and even myself have concerns about this. I'm young and having to pay for this down the road is going to be a pain in the butt especially if the system doesn't get better. However, neither of us would be acting like this if we were at a town hall. I know I wouldn't. I would hope debate can happen and I think it can assuming the right people are there.

You have people shouting at Senators and Congressman at town halls. I'm supposed to believe that an independent or someone who has little to no party affiliation is behind this?

I just don't believe that.

No more than George Soros and many multimillionaires were behind the astroturf movement that got Obama elected.

And I love it that people are shouting at Senators and Congressmen for a change. After what they've done the past few years, they're lucky the masses don't march on D.C. with pitchforks and torches.

They nearly destroyed the banks, killed our property values, wiped out $trillions in life savings, and are selling the nation to China as fast as they can.