Draft Pick

[Wink23]

Im not sure if this has been discussed yet but I don't understand why the draft pick to the bulls wasn't lottery protected. Did Isiah think Curry was going to be our savior? He said its not going to be a strong draft, but still there are some impact players. The two draft picks we have (Spurs and Suns I believe) won't do us much good.

Gah!

 

[TORaptors bb4]

You have Denver's pick from Toronto, not Phoenix's. And as for your first question, I don't know if you've noticed but Isiah is not exactly a solid GM.

 

[Mr. J]

The plan was to obviously make the playoffs with Brown around. I think we definitely had a legit shot if:

a)Curry came to camp healthy and in shape

Larry Brown coached well

Hopefully Carmelo Anthony and Tim Duncan suffer from injuries this season.

 

[02civic]

...cause we all know its easy to coach a team of underachieving selfish type players with a history of refusing to play ANY defence and several with a history of not listening/fighting with their coaches.


Larry Browns not worth 10 mill a season, and he's not doing a good job. But call it like it is. Brown's doing a horrible job coaching a horribly made team. I dont think any coach in the league could get this team any where near .500. And thats not bagging on your team, more trying to cut Larry some degree of slack.

 

[Shapecity]

You can't cut Larry any slack, because he knew the makeup of this team prior to signing. I think his ego got the best of him and he felt he could turn this team around right away.

I read an interesting theory today. Rumors are circulating that Larry Brown is tanking this season on purpose so Isiah gets canned. The Knicks would then bring in a puppet GM, while Larry made all the changes and eventually took over the role after he retires from coaching.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">...cause we all know its easy to coach a team of underachieving selfish type players with a history of refusing to play ANY defence and several with a history of not listening/fighting with their coaches.


Larry Browns not worth 10 mill a season, and he's not doing a good job. But call it like it is. Brown's doing a horrible job coaching a horribly made team. I dont think any coach in the league could get this team any where near .500. And thats not bagging on your team, more trying to cut Larry some degree of slack.</div>
You keep on saying they have a history of fight/not listening etc., but that all doesn't matter. Did they do it in New York? No, so what difference does that make.

34 starting lineups in 56 games says it all. Had the Knicks played consistent basketball and didn't have to worry about their coach trashing them publicly, there record could be much better.

 

[Smitty]

02civic..Are you serious? Larry Brown has done a terrible job and his track record shouldn't blind you from the facts.

 

[02civic]

Q

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't cut Larry any slack, because he knew the makeup of this team prior to signing. I think his ego got the best of him and he felt he could turn this team around right away.

I read an interesting theory today. Rumors are circulating that Larry Brown is tanking this season on purpose so Isiah gets canned. The Knicks would then bring in a puppet GM, while Larry made all the changes and eventually took over the role after he retires from coaching.</div>

you're right on the Larry issue..he did know what he was getting into when he signed. I'm not sure if he actually beleived he could turn the team around....he's a hall of fame coach not superman. But i do think he was of the beleif that it would be easier than what he's finding it to be.

The team is plain broken now though. No quick fixes will do it this time, they'll have to wait a few years for contracts to expire and JUST LET THEM EXPIRE! Trades wont cut it, to many players are so overpayed that no team will take them on without shedding some of their own expensive crappy peices (read crawford, marbury, james, rose, taylor, qrich, curry)

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Psycho Drama:</div><div class="quote_post">02civic..Are you serious? Larry Brown has done a terrible job and his track record shouldn't blind you from the facts.</div>
Thank you, I couldn't have said it better myself.

So, 02civic, what's wrong with this team.

Too many attitudes? Hasn't been a problem this season.

Selfishness? The players are actually sharing too much.

Out all of the 50+ Knick games you've seen, what do you see as the problem?

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Psycho Drama:</div><div class="quote_post">02civic..Are you serious? Larry Brown has done a terrible job and his track record shouldn't blind you from the facts.</div>


I never said he was doing good...or even that he was doing alright. He IS doing badly...in many ways...but the Knicks arent a bad team with a horrible record "because" of Larry Brown. Their worse than they should be yes...but in my opinion, put any coach you want in his place and they'll still be a bad team with a horrible record.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said he was doing good...or even that he was doing alright. He IS doing badly...in many ways...but the Knicks arent a bad team with a horrible record "because" of Larry Brown. Their worse than they should be yes...but in my opinion, put any coach you want in his place and they'll still be a bad team with a horrible record.</div>
Please elaborate on this more. I'm thoroughly convinced if you had less than 33 starting lineups, consistent player rotations, and a coach who doesn't publicly trash his team, they would be much better.

 

[Shapecity]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">you're right on the Larry issue..he did know what he was getting into when he signed. I'm not sure if he actually beleived he could turn the team around....he's a hall of fame coach not superman. But i do think he was of the beleif that it would be easier than what he's finding it to be.

The team is plain broken now though. No quick fixes will do it this time, they'll have to wait a few years for contracts to expire and JUST LET THEM EXPIRE! Trades wont cut it, to many players are so overpayed that no team will take them on without shedding some of their own expensive crappy peices (read crawford, marbury, james, rose, taylor, qrich, curry)</div>

Larry Brown has made it harder for himself by constantly changing the roster around. All the players the Knicks have are castoffs from other teams. Most of the players have struggled because they haven't been in a stable environment. Larry Brown has created chaos for them and himself since taking this job.

Imagine trying to play under these circumstances. One day your're getting 30 minutes a game, the next you're getting back to back DNPs. It would frustrate the hell out of me, so I can only imagine what it's doing to his players. I'm sure most have already tuned him out because they don't know what Larry Brown wants from this them.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Thank you, I couldn't have said it better myself.

So, 02civic, what's wrong with this team.

Too many attitudes? Hasn't been a problem this season.

Selfishness? The players are actually sharing too much.

Out all of the 50+ Knick games you've seen, what do you see as the problem?</div>


The problem in my opinion is that this team's peices dont fit, and never wit. Not enough role players, to many pure scorers, no one willing to even feign interest in defence, not enough hustle players, a generally undersized team even by eastern conference standards, and far to many players that need the ball in their hands to score.

I havent seen all of the 50+ Knicks games this season...probably more like 20-25, so i make no claims of "knowing it all", but that said, it doesnt take a genious to say that the Knicks lineup is just a clump of skilled players with no real sense of "team" play.

Frye is a talent for sure, Lee has hustle and Nate is coming along well....the Knicks can have a good future but first they need to realize that its better to suck for a few years in order to be great, than to go years and years being mediocre.

To quote a saying "you have to walk throught the darkness to get to the light"

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Please elaborate on this more. I'm thoroughly convinced if you had less than 33 starting lineups, consistent player rotations, and a coach who doesn't publicly trash his team, they would be much better.</div>


100% right..they would be doing better than they are now. All i'm saying is that while LB IS doing a bad job, to many talk about it as if LB is all thats wrong with the team. As if getting a new coach would be the difference between night and day and this team would be in the playoffs.
I'm just disagreeing with those people. LB is doing a suffeciently bad enough job to deserve getting fired, however this team at most might be good for another 3-6 wins over an 82 game season with Avery Johnson, Mike D or Flip.


Summary..the coach is sh!t, coaching like sh!t, acting like sh!t, but he's not the only reason this team isnt performing.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">You keep on saying they have a history of fight/not listening etc., but that all doesn't matter. Did they do it in New York? No, so what difference does that make.
</div>

But they are doing it in New York. Their not yelling and screaming publicly but they are clearly not listening to their coach. The wont play defence, and i know Larry is preaching that 95% of the day..and yet look at how the players are out on the floor. Sure they've had tons of lineups in far to short a time span and that hurts alot. In a more stable situation the players could communicate more on offense/defense, they'd know what the others are going to do and make better decisions based on that. But that said, there's no excuse whatsoever for the Knicks players total and absolute lack of effort


sorry for the triple post i has missed this MrJ post and wanted to better explain what i was trying to say.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">The problem in my opinion is that this team's peices dont fit, and never wit. Not enough role players, to many pure scorers, no one willing to even feign interest in defence, not enough hustle players, a generally undersized team even by eastern conference standards, and far to many players that need the ball in their hands to score.

I havent seen all of the 50+ Knicks games this season...probably more like 20-25, so i make no claims of "knowing it all", but that said, it doesnt take a genious to say that the Knicks lineup is just a clump of skilled players with no real sense of "team" play.

Frye is a talent for sure, Lee has hustle and Nate is coming along well....the Knicks can have a good future but first they need to realize that its better to suck for a few years in order to be great, than to go years and years being mediocre.

To quote a saying "you have to walk throught the darkness to get to the light"</div>
One of the reasons why Jalen Rose was brought in was because of his ability to score. One of the issues facing the Knicks was their inability to score, so I don’t know what you mean by they’re too many scorers. The Knicks actually need more people who can put the ball in the basket. The defense has been a concern, but it makes it even worse when you play so inconsistently. It takes players more of a time to get into the flow of the game defensively when they’re completely confused on their role.

You say the Knicks need some hustle players, but David Lee is a hustle player and barely logs any minutes for Larry Brown. Same thing goes for Trevor Ariza when he was with us. He would give us energy dive on the floor and play great defense, but Brown never gave him any minutes.

They’re lineup has no team play? Which one of the 33?

You mentioned three great rookies we have which don’t get consistent burn because of Larry Brown. Every single rookie has been more effective than Malik Rose, Maurice Taylor, and Antonio Davis (when he played here), but Brown still didn’t play them.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post"> 100% right..they would be doing better than they are now. All i'm saying is that while LB IS doing a bad job, to many talk about it as if LB is all thats wrong with the team. As if getting a new coach would be the difference between night and day and this team would be in the playoffs. I'm just disagreeing with those people. LB is doing a suffeciently bad enough job to deserve getting fired, however this team at most might be good for another 3-6 wins over an 82 game season with Avery Johnson, Mike D or Flip.

Summary..the coach is sh!t, coaching like sh!t, acting like sh!t, but he's not the only reason this team isnt performing.</div>
Okay, with only 3-6 more wins you’re basically saying that Larry Brown’s 33 different starting lineups in 56 games basically don’t have an effect on the players. Or the trashing he does to the media. Or their lack of a set rotation still 56 games into the season. How can you say Brown is doing a bad enough job to get fired than say this team at best would win 3-6 more games? That means he did a pretty good job.

Also, let’s note the fact that when Marbury and Curry play the Knicks are 15-20. That’s still a bad record, but pretty close to .500. We’re also not taking into consideration how many times Marbury has played with one shoulder, or Curry on one leg.

I actually think the Knicks would be much better with Mike D’Antoni. Just look at their roster, everyone can run the floor. The Knicks are discouraged by Larry Brown to get fast break points despite the fact the team is best suited for that. Their scoring problem is also attributed to the lack of easy buckets they can get in transition.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">But they are doing it in New York. Their not yelling and screaming publicly but they are clearly not listening to their coach. The wont play defence, and i know Larry is preaching that 95% of the day..and yet look at how the players are out on the floor. Sure they've had tons of lineups in far to short a time span and that hurts alot. In a more stable situation the players could communicate more on offense/defense, they'd know what the others are going to do and make better decisions based on that. But that said, there's no excuse whatsoever for the Knicks players total and absolute lack of effort


sorry for the triple post i has missed this MrJ post and wanted to better explain what i was trying to say.</div>
Well, defense hasn’t been a strong point for us this season, but you have to note the improvements. Marbury has become a pretty decent defender this year and Richardson has been very much improved since he played in Phoenix. How can you say their ridiculous lineup changes hurts a lot then say at best they’re good for another 3-6 wins. That means the lineup changes don’t have much of an effect at all.

The 33 lineups in 56 games have players confused and also takes away their confidence. This is the first time any of them in their careers have been in such a situation. Just like shape said, if you play 30 minutes one game and 0 the next you will be confused and it will be very, very challenging adjusting to that pattern because most players need to find a rhythm within the game. With Brown calling players “delusional” and saying they can’t understand something because they went to an engineering school, it will take away just about all the confidence you have, especially for the rookies. Many times the Knicks have shown a lack of effort, but their lack of confidence is due to this as well.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">One of the reasons why Jalen Rose was brought in was because of his ability to score. One of the issues facing the Knicks was their inability to score, so I don?t know what you mean by they?re too many scorers. The Knicks actually need more people who can put the ball in the basket. The defense has been a concern, but it makes it even worse when you play so inconsistently. It takes players more of a time to get into the flow of the game defensively when they?re completely confused on their role.</div>

This team should never have a hard time scoring..pre Jalen Rose. They werent scoring alot no. Thats partially Larry's system and partially the fact that it was essentially a 2 on 5 on offence. 2 Knicks would do some sort of a pick and role while the other 3 stood there with their hands on their knees. I would contend that the Knicks lack of scoring opportunities isnt due to a lack of scorers, but becuase to many of the current scorers on the team need the ball in their hands to be of any use at all on the offensive end.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">
You say the Knicks need some hustle players, but David Lee is a hustle player and barely logs any minutes for Larry Brown. Same thing goes for Trevor Ariza when he was with us. He would give us energy dive on the floor and play great defense, but Brown never gave him any minutes.

They?re lineup has no team play? Which one of the 33?

</div>

Agreed. Lee should be getting all his current minutes plus any they give to Malik or Taylor. Those 2 shouldnt play. Ariza also should of gotten considerable minutes, i know there were some issues their between him and Brown..not sure what came of that really.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">
You mentioned three great rookies we have which don?t get consistent burn because of Larry Brown. Every single rookie has been more effective than Malik Rose, Maurice Taylor, and Antonio Davis (when he played here), but Brown still didn?t play them.</div>

Again ya they should be getting 90% of that burn. Antonio Davis would be the only player their who was deserving of minutes. And thats only because a) the team needed toughness badly

i'd rather have Davis taking backup 5 spot minutes than J. James



<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">
Okay, with only 3-6 more wins you?re basically saying that Larry Brown?s 33 different starting lineups in 56 games basically don?t have an effect on the players. Or the trashing he does to the media. Or their lack of a set rotation still 56 games into the season. How can you say Brown is doing a bad enough job to get fired than say this team at best would win 3-6 more games? That means he did a pretty good job.</div>

not really. I'd say the biggest problem i have with larry isnt the losses, its the way the teams loosing. Its the number of points you guys are getting hammered by and the slow starts/sloppy endings to quarters/games.
3-6 wins isnt all that bad, but no its not significant really. I think with a new coach more suited to the style you'd get maybe 5 more wins but the team would peform more consistently, and the losses would be much much closer.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">
Also, let?s note the fact that when Marbury and Curry play the Knicks are 15-20. That?s still a bad record, but pretty close to .500. We?re also not taking into consideration how many times Marbury has played with one shoulder, or Curry on one leg.</div>

True. Althought injuries are part of every teams season you do have to take them into account.

Offtopic: at times i look at Curry and think he's gunna be something, but then right afterwards i ask if i'd trade a possible #1 pick for him. Why Why didnt he try to protect that pick.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">
I actually think the Knicks would be much better with Mike D?Antoni. Just look at their roster, everyone can run the floor. The Knicks are discouraged by Larry Brown to get fast break points despite the fact the team is best suited for that. Their scoring problem is also attributed to the lack of easy buckets they can get in transition.</div>

I'm not totally sure Larry discourages the fast break. The team doesnt do it as much as others do true...but also you have to remember that with the Knicks high opponent fg% and the Knicks low rebounding #'s the opportunities for fast breaks are significanly less than those other running teams.
That said...I do agree LB should push the ball more than he is, as much as possible. Larry's to used to playing the halfcourt grinding type of game, and this team just isnt cut out for that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">
The 33 lineups in 56 games have players confused and also takes away their confidence. This is the first time any of them in their careers have been in such a situation. Just like shape said, if you play 30 minutes one game and 0 the next you will be confused and it will be very, very challenging adjusting to that pattern because most players need to find a rhythm within the game. With Brown calling players ?delusional? and saying they can?t understand something because they went to an engineering school, it will take away just about all the confidence you have, especially for the rookies. Many times the Knicks have shown a lack of effort, but their lack of confidence is due to this as well.</div>


Ya i hear ya. its sort of the chicken or the egg. What came first, the players being lazy and having a lack of effort or the hit to their confidence they took from Larry moving them around?

I think larry's frequent and drastic lineup changes are horrible...i'm not really sure what he's doing alot of the time actually. But even with the lineup craziness, the players need to be willing to show up for a game their getting paid 10's of thousands of dollars to PLAY.

I think the Knicks situation is an example of both the players and the coach being of equal blame. Only solution is to kill off the dead weight, hire a cheerleader to coach in place of LB and send Malik, Taylor, Crawford and James down to the D-league for some humble pie.

 

[Shapecity]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Brown did not play Jalen Rose and instead started the Memphis native Qyntel Woods to give the Knicks their 35th starting lineup of the season. It was only one month ago that the Knicks acquired Rose and his $15.7 million salary, and Brown said that Rose's veteran presence would help the young players.

Brown never talked to Rose about benching him, and Rose seemed miffed. "I had a good practice yesterday," he said. "I just didn't get the call."

Brown said that Rose was fine, but would not elaborate.

Rose said this was the first time in nine seasons that he had not played as a result of a coach's decision. The last time was in Indiana, with Brown as his coach.
</div>

I think this is a great example of how dysfunctional and frustrating it's been for the players.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post">I think this is a great example of how dysfunctional and frustrating it's been for the players.</div>

agreed, very odd

 

[Tribute to H2O]

Hey MrJ I have a question for you and anyone else who thinks Larry Brown is doing a lousy job. Who has to lose with this team before you admit that this team cant win no matter who is the coach? Scott Skiles? Phil Jackson? Rick Carlisle? Van Gundy? Flip Saunders? Popovich? I said it in the preseason this team was bad and no coach living or dead in the history of sports could get this team anywhere near .500. Brown definetely had an idea of what he was getting into but he can only do his best with what he has to work with. You can have the greatest brain surgeon in the world but if he doesnt have the tools to perform the surgery than there's nothing he can do. That doesnt make him a bad brain surgeon it means that the surgery simply cant be done.

I said it before the season began and I'll say it again: Larry Brown is not Jesus Christ. He cannot walk on water and he cant perform miracles like getting this sorry team anywhere near the playoffs. We've had a former coach of the year, the winningest coach in history, a nice prospect and now we have the best coach in the NBA. The only constant has been the team and of course Isiah Thomas. Brown has gone to the finals in back to back years and been a winner everywhere he has gone and now that he's coaching the Knicks he's all of a sudden a bad coach? I dont think so. Any coach who tries to coach this team of losers will lose. This team makes any coach regardless of how good they may actually be look bad. So tell me again guys who has to fail with this collection of misfits and losers for you to realize that the team is the problem not the coach?


Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">This team should never have a hard time scoring..pre Jalen Rose. They werent scoring alot no. Thats partially Larry's system and partially the fact that it was essentially a 2 on 5 on offence. 2 Knicks would do some sort of a pick and role while the other 3 stood there with their hands on their knees. I would contend that the Knicks lack of scoring opportunities isnt due to a lack of scorers, but becuase to many of the current scorers on the team need the ball in their hands to be of any use at all on the offensive end.</div>
No, that’s not true at all. The Knicks don’t run that many pick and rolls, actually. They usually just try to force a pass down low to Eddy Curry and hope he scores. Marbury was a great asset to the offense last year. He used to break down the defense and create opportunities for everyone. He got to the line and got us easy buckets like layups. It’s partially Larry Brown’s fault? That’s pretty much all of his fault. Do you think it’s a coincidence Detroit became a much better offensive team once he left? The Knicks were actually a pretty solid offensive team last year before Larry Brown came. The Knicks barely run any plays, and the plays they do run aren’t suitable for this team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">not really. I'd say the biggest problem i have with larry isnt the losses, its the way the teams loosing. Its the number of points you guys are getting hammered by and the slow starts/sloppy endings to quarters/games.
3-6 wins isnt all that bad, but no its not significant really. I think with a new coach more suited to the style you'd get maybe 5 more wins but the team would peform more consistently, and the losses would be much much closer.</div>
The team plays so sloppy because of Larry Brown. You said Brown is doing a bad enough job to get fired, but the best the Knicks would have is five more wins. That means the Knicks would be only five games shy of their maximum potential. That really isn’t that bad at all. Saying the blowouts would be closer doesn’t really hold much water, what matters is winning and losing.

Also, I said Marbury and Curry are 15-21 playing together. Assuming they stay healthy all season and if another coach gave them five more wins they would be around .500. That means you would be wrong for saying another coach “couldn’t get them anywhere near .500,” no?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post"> True. Althought injuries are part of every teams season you do have to take them into account.

Offtopic: at times i look at Curry and think he's gunna be something, but then right afterwards i ask if i'd trade a possible #1 pick for him. Why Why didnt he try to protect that pick. </div>
Injuries are without a doubt a part of every team. However, they can affect a team’s record. A record doesn’t necessarily reflect a good a team is. Take the Rockets for example. They’re below .500 due to injuries, but does it mean they’re a .500 team?

He thought the team would make the playoffs, so he didn’t protect the pick.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not totally sure Larry discourages the fast break. The team doesnt do it as much as others do true...but also you have to remember that with the Knicks high opponent fg% and the Knicks low rebounding #'s the opportunities for fast breaks are significanly less than those other running teams.
That said...I do agree LB should push the ball more than he is, as much as possible. Larry's to used to playing the halfcourt grinding type of game, and this team just isnt cut out for that.</div>
The only time the Knicks run with the ball is to push it up half court and call timeout. Brown just doesn’t like running on the break. The same thing went for when he played with the Pistons despite the fact everyone on their starting five could. Yes, the Knicks opponents shoot a high percentage, but didn’t the Suns’ opponents do the same thing? And what do you mean the Knicks have low rebounding numbers? If you watch their games you would notice that’s been one of their bright spots. The Knicks rank ninth in the NBA in rebounds per game, 28th in opponents rebounds allowed, and third in the league in rebounding difference. Where did you get the idea they have low rebounding numbers? Pretty much everyone on their roster is quick and athletic enough to run the floor and that should be taken advantage of.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Ya i hear ya. its sort of the chicken or the egg. What came first, the players being lazy and having a lack of effort or the hit to their confidence they took from Larry moving them around?

I think larry's frequent and drastic lineup changes are horrible...i'm not really sure what he's doing alot of the time actually. But even with the lineup craziness, the players need to be willing to show up for a game their getting paid 10's of thousands of dollars to PLAY.

I think the Knicks situation is an example of both the players and the coach being of equal blame. Only solution is to kill off the dead weight, hire a cheerleader to coach in place of LB and send Malik, Taylor, Crawford and James down to the D-league for some humble pie.</div>
How can we not expect the Knicks to look confused and completely out of sync most of the time? There’s absolutely no continuity on Brown’s part. Players’ effort isn’t as intense because they know this is a lost season, their coach trashes them, and they play inconsistent minutes despite being serviceable most of the times. I’m sure if many more NBA players were in this position it would affect their effort, too. Getting rid of the coach is first and foremost. Brown is coaching horrendously and is to blame for the players’ performance. The players are completely lost and have no confidence because of Larry Brown. Look no further than the quote shape left as evidence—evidence worth more than 3-6 wins.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Hey MrJ I have a question for you and anyone else who thinks Larry Brown is doing a lousy job. Who has to lose with this team before you admit that this team cant win no matter who is the coach? Scott Skiles? Phil Jackson? Rick Carlisle? Van Gundy? Flip Saunders? Popovich? I said it in the preseason this team was bad and no coach living or dead in the history of sports could get this team anywhere near .500. Brown definetely had an idea of what he was getting into but he can only do his best with what he has to work with. You can have the greatest brain surgeon in the world but if he doesnt have the tools to perform the surgery than there's nothing he can do. That doesnt make him a bad brain surgeon it means that the surgery simply cant be done.</div>
Hey, Tribute I have a question for you. Do you think Brown is doing a lousy job? Brown has a lot to work with, but he’s not utilizing it correctly. I’m not saying that the Knicks would be championship contenders or even make the playoffs, but they would be better than 15-42. Much better I might add.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I said it before the season began and I'll say it again: Larry Brown is not Jesus Christ. He cannot walk on water and he cant perform miracles like getting this sorry team anywhere near the playoffs. We've had a former coach of the year, the winningest coach in history, a nice prospect and now we have the best coach in the NBA. The only constant has been the team and of course Isiah Thomas. Brown has gone to the finals in back to back years and been a winner everywhere he has gone and now that he's coaching the Knicks he's all of a sudden a bad coach? I dont think so. Any coach who tries to coach this team of losers will lose. This team makes any coach regardless of how good they may actually be look bad. So tell me again guys who has to fail with this collection of misfits and losers for you to realize that the team is the problem not the coach?</div>
I didn’t like Don Chaney that much, but he did well considering what he was given. We had the winningest coach in NBA history, but you also forgot to mention he was the losingest coach, too. Even with Chaney, Wilkins, and Herb Williams, we had a much better record than we did right now. Brown has won everywhere he’s gone right? Let’s not forget that Brown also can’t keep himself set. Whenever a team is on a downfall he leaves. Do you think Brown could have made the Clippers a playoff-caliber team during their drought? And could he have kept the 76ers title contenders? They went from losing in the Finals to losing in the first round. Let’s be real with ourselves, this is the first time Brown has done such a bad job and what proves my point even more is the fact that HE admitted it. By his own admission he is doing a bad job. The guy who makes the Knicks a 15-42 team could be anyone as long as they don’t have 35 lineups in 57 games, doesn’t call his players delusional or knock them from going to an engineering school.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Hey, Tribute I have a question for you. Do you think Brown is doing a lousy job? Brown has a lot to work with, but he?s not utilizing it correctly. I?m not saying that the Knicks would be championship contenders or even make the playoffs, but they would be better than 15-42. Much better I might add.


I didn?t like Don Chaney that much, but he did well considering what he was given. We had the winningest coach in NBA history, but you also forgot to mention he was the losingest coach, too. Even with Chaney, Wilkins, and Herb Williams, we had a much better record than we did right now. Brown has won everywhere he?s gone right? Let?s not forget that Brown also can?t keep himself set. Whenever a team is on a downfall he leaves. Do you think Brown could have made the Clippers a playoff-caliber team during their drought? And could he have kept the 76ers title contenders? They went from losing in the Finals to losing in the first round. Let?s be real with ourselves, this is the first time Brown has done such a bad job and what proves my point even more is the fact that HE admitted it. By his own admission he is doing a bad job. The guy who makes the Knicks a 15-42 team could be anyone as long as they don?t have 35 lineups in 57 games, doesn?t call his players delusional or knock them from going to an engineering school.</div>

Dont answer a question with a question. My question was very simple. So please answer it since I've been asking it for a long time. Who has to fail with this team for you to say it's just the team's fault and the coach no matter who it is cant help it? Give me a name. Scott Skiles? Phil Jackson? Jeff Van Gundy? Rick Carlisle? Pat Riley? Do you understand the question? Because if you dont I'll explain it to you.

This team is most certainly not better than it's record. Have you even been watching the games lately? The Knicks are lucky they can lose only one game at a time. The reason why we had a better record under those other guys than with Larry Brown is because those teams were probably better and the East was much weaker. Could he have kept the 76ers title contenders? Could he have made the Clippers a playoff team during their drought? I dont know and you dont know either. Noone knows what would have happened to the 76ers had he stayed. All that anyone knows is he was there they went to the Finals, he left and they've been stuck in mediocrity ever since. You claiming the Clippers and 76ers would have been bad with or without him is purely speculation so please try not to get that confused with fact.

Do you really think Larry Brown would come out and say this team is as bad as it's record and there's nothing any coach could do about it? Larry Brown saying he needs to do a better job is just talk. There is nothing anyone can do to help this team except God and maybe Jesus. I dont think I've heard of an NBA coach admit that his team is just plain atrocious. Have you? Now please answer my question(anyone else is free to answer my question by the way): Who has to lose with this team for you to finally just say "this team is just really bad and the coaching simply doesnt matter"?


Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Dont answer a question with a question. My question was very simple. So please answer it since I've been asking it for a long time. Who has to fail with this team for you to say it's just the team's fault and the coach no matter who it is cant help it? Give me a name. Scott Skiles? Phil Jackson? Jeff Van Gundy? Rick Carlisle? Pat Riley? Do you understand the question? Because if you dont I'll explain it to you.

This team is most certainly not better than it's record. Have you even been watching the games lately? The Knicks are lucky they can lose only one game at a time. The reason why we had a better record under those other guys than with Larry Brown is because those teams were probably better and the East was much weaker. Could he have kept the 76ers title contenders? Could he have made the Clippers a playoff team during their drought? I dont know and you dont know either. Noone knows what would have happened to the 76ers had he stayed. All that anyone knows is he was there they went to the Finals, he left and they've been stuck in mediocrity ever since. You claiming the Clippers and 76ers would have been bad with or without him is purely speculation so please try not to get that confused with fact.

Do you really think Larry Brown would come out and say this team is as bad as it's record and there's nothing any coach could do about it? Larry Brown saying he needs to do a better job is just talk. There is nothing anyone can do to help this team except God and maybe Jesus. I dont think I've heard of an NBA coach admit that his team is just plain atrocious. Have you? Now please answer my question(anyone else is free to answer my question by the way): Who has to lose with this team for you to finally just say "this team is just really bad and the coaching simply doesnt matter"?</div>
If any of the coaches you named fail then I’ll believe it. But the thing about it is I doubt any of the coaches you named above would do as bad a job as Larry Brown. Now that I have answered your question, please answer mine. Do you think Larry Brown is doing a good job coaching the Knicks.

It’s not better than its record? The fact that the Knicks have about a .420 win percentage when Marbury and Curry plays proves that they are better than their record. Marbury is arguable the most durable player in the entire league and was injured this season, so that just shows how big a part injuries have affected this team. Actually they weren’t that much better at all. If anything this team is better than any of the teams we’ve had the previous years, but it isn’t being coached correctly. Brown went to Detroit and coached a former Rick Carlisle team that went to the Eastern Conference Finals a year ago. They also added Rasheed Wallace to the team when Brown was coaching. Even the players in Detroit said that Brown got too much credit for taking over a title contending team, especially after acquiring a two-time all. In Indiana after the Pacers went 39-43, he left and went to the 76ers. After he got eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, he went to Detroit, a team already in a position to win. That just shows Brown is leaving when a team is declining. Whether or not they rebound from their season is speculation, but it’s a FACT when Brown’s teams are declining he leaves.

Why not? Brown has trashed his team before, why can’t he do it again? He called Ariza delusional and said Marbury can’t understand a concept because he went to an engineering school for one year. Does the ridiculous rotations he has have something to do with it? Or the 35 lineups in 57 games have anything to do with it? He said Francis would be a fulltime starter for the Knicks, but he has him coming off the bench. He said it will only take him 20 games to find a set rotation and starting lineup. It has been 57 games and he still can’t find one. He said we’re bad on defense, but he had our best defender on the bench. He said since the season is lost we’ll play the young guys more. Nate’s been inactive and Lee barely gets anytime. He’s getting minutes as of late, but whenever he plays well Brown seems to put him on the bench. Same thing goes for everyone on the team. Don’t believe me, check out that Golden State game. What about how he kills everyone’s confidence with the shots to the New York media of all people. Do you think that has any effect on the way we play? Of course it does. There’s been nothing but confusion with the team because of Larry Brown’s lack of continuity. If Larry Brown was Lenny Wilkens, a coach you hated, especially last season, you would be calling for his head, but you’re blinded by Brown’s track record to admit he’s doing an awful job with this team.

 

[Chutney]

I think its rather shortsighted to fire Larry right now. He has not done a good job creating some chemistry and finding some consistency with this team. But then again you have to realize how difficult it would be to make this team play well. Consistent rotations would make the team play better, but they would still be losing about the same amount of games. Their defense is just too poor to make a case that this team could be significantly better. No other coach in the league could make this group of players into a playoff team, even in a weak Eastern conference.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post"> Saying the blowouts would be closer doesn’t really hold much water, what matters is winning and losing.</div>

I disagree. Its not the Knicks record that most people have the problem with, its the simple fact that 80% of those losses werent even close, and they werent close because the players didnt seem to show up.

Larry Brown doing a bad job or not, i'll let you guys discuss that cuase its too much for me...how do you seperate the blame between a coach, a team and the GM? All i know is that the Knicks have played crappy for a few years now, and not because they dont have talent..its because they dont have 1) defensive skills 2) effort.

Larry Brown is a terrific coach in my opinion..the reason why he's made so many strange moves this season (like Rose's Memphis DNP) i have no clue...all i know is that in almost any situation i prefer to blame the players. These guys get payed millions to play a game...and they dont do it very well. Why?

....they dont try

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree. Its not the Knicks record that most people have the problem with, its the simple fact that 80% of those losses werent even close, and they werent close because the players didnt seem to show up.

Larry Brown doing a bad job or not, i'll let you guys discuss that cuase its too much for me...how do you seperate the blame between a coach, a team and the GM? All i know is that the Knicks have played crappy for a few years now, and not because they dont have talent..its because they dont have 1) defensive skills 2) effort.

Larry Brown is a terrific coach in my opinion..the reason why he's made so many strange moves this season (like Rose's Memphis DNP) i have no clue...all i know is that in almost any situation i prefer to blame the players. These guys get payed millions to play a game...and they dont do it very well. Why?

....they dont try</div>
The Knicks average loss is by 6.5 points. Saying they get blown out 80% of their losses is clearly an exaggeration. Hope you weren?t serious.

Last year they played crappy, and despite having a much better team this year, we?re playing even worse. The year before that we made the playoffs and the year before that we were out of contention by about 4 games, I believe. This was the year McDyess was injured. Point is, this team should be much better than their current record and it is due to Larry Brown?s poor utilization of this team?s talent. As I said before, whether or not they would have a playoff seed is different. Could they, however, be in contention for an eighth seed? I think so. The Knicks don?t have great defense, but neither did Phoenix, Dallas, Seattle last year, Sacramento, Denver, Philadelphia, and I can go on. Not to say this team is better than them, but if the Knicks were better offensively, which, for the most part, is Brown?s fault, they would be in a better position to compensate for their defensive deficiencies. As I said before, it?s hard to always put in effort when your coach is tearing you up and you know you?re playing in a lost season. Am I justifying their actions for not always giving 100% despite playing in a lost season? No, but many players, perhaps a majority of them would have done no different in a similar situation.

Brown has quite a track record, but the fact of the matter is he is doing a bad job coaching the Knicks. He just doesn?t always seem to utilize talent properly. Look no further than the Team USA thrashing. This isn?t a good fit for Larry Brown and his 36 lineups in 58 games prove that he?s not the right man of the job. There?s no consistency, there?s no trust, (two factors affecting the Knicks? effort) and there?s clearly no plan Brown has in mind. This is especially apparent with his knack for contradicting himself. What do their contracts have anything to do with the situation? It shows that they?re overpaid? Okay? but does that really matter? What matters is the Knicks are losing because of Larry Brown not coaching this team properly by his own admission. This should be a run and gun team with consistent starting lineups and rotations. Brown is taking away their strengths and is implementing his own style even though it doesn?t fit with this team. You might think he?s a terrific coach, but he definitely isn?t a terrific coach for this team.

 

[$Quan$]

I think D brown from Iilions will be on the 1st or 2nd

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">The Knicks average loss is by 6.5 points. Saying they get blown out 80% of their losses is clearly an exaggeration. Hope you weren’t serious.
</div>


You're to much about stats. I've seen blowouts with 6 point differences at the end of the game. I've seen close games that had a 15 point difference.
6.5 is a lot of points to loose by on average.

What are the comparable teams to the Knicks in the eastern conferance in terms of their standing

Atlanta -5.5 ppg (lots of youth)
Charlotte -4.9 ppg (lots of youth)
Toronto -2.3 ppg

6.5 is the highest number in the eastern conference. Only the blazers have a higher average loss (8ppg). And to me thats better than the knicks 6.5 becuase the blazers face MUCH tougher competetition out west AND they've got much more youth on the team which is a partial excuse.

The Knicks get blown out alot. And the reason that happens isnt just about questionable coaching moves...its about the players having no heart, and simply not giving 100%

And true you have a much more talent this year...but i dont think you have a much better "team". And its not only the stats i'm talking about. A problem with this team is that there's no direction, there arent clearly defined role players, everyone's out for theirs.

This Knicks team has by far the lowest assistoint ratio, in the entire league. Part of that might be the coach, but i think a large part of it is becuase most of the players on the team are shoot first second third pass forth type players, and they have been through their careers.

I think the Knicks get worse the more "talent" they add, every additional player they get seems to only add to the seperation seen within this team.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">You're to much about stats. I've seen blowouts with 6 point differences at the end of the game. I've seen close games that had a 15 point difference.
6.5 is a lot of points to loose by on average.

What are the comparable teams to the Knicks in the eastern conferance in terms of their standing

Atlanta -5.5 ppg (lots of youth)
Charlotte -4.9 ppg (lots of youth)
Toronto -2.3 ppg

6.5 is the highest number in the eastern conference. Only the blazers have a higher average loss (8ppg). And to me thats better than the knicks 6.5 becuase the blazers face MUCH tougher competetition out west AND they've got much more youth on the team which is a partial excuse.

The Knicks get blown out alot. And the reason that happens isnt just about questionable coaching moves...its about the players having no heart, and simply not giving 100%

And true you have a much more talent this year...but i dont think you have a much better "team". And its not only the stats i'm talking about. A problem with this team is that there's no direction, there arent clearly defined role players, everyone's out for theirs.

This Knicks team has by far the lowest assistoint ratio, in the entire league. Part of that might be the coach, but i think a large part of it is becuase most of the players on the team are shoot first second third pass forth type players, and they have been through their careers.

I think the Knicks get worse the more "talent" they add, every additional player they get seems to only add to the seperation seen within this team.</div>
6.5 points on average never equates to 80% blowouts. As I said before, a lot of the times the Knicks were getting blown out were during Marbury’s injury. The Knicks lost on average by 12 points during that streak.

I’ve said this in just about every post in this thread. 36 lineups in 58 games = a lot of inconsistency. I don’t know how to spell it out any better. The turnovers are a direct result of the inconsistent play. Let’s be real… how can you expect to be consistent when you’re playing 30 minutes in the starting lineup and 0 minutes the very next game. Then you play a week of consistently in the rotation. Then, for no reason, you’re out of it for two weeks. This isn’t NBA Live, players aren’t robots. You can’t honestly expect players to be consistent after being played so inconsistently. It’s simply inhuman to adjust to so much inconsistency, especially in one year. Guys like Q-Rich and Jamal find their rhythm in the flow of the game, but they can never find their rhythm playing their inconsistent minutes. Don’t say part of it is because of the coach—just about all of it is due to him. Take that from someone who has watched every single Knick game and some multiple times. The Knicks are not a selfish team at all. In fact, sometimes they should be more selfish. The fact no one is hitting shots is the reason the assist numbers are so low. And no, they don’t add to the player separation. Larry Brown is. He’s talking trash about his players to the media and the players said themselves they don’t appreciate it. When you can’t trust your coach it in return affects your effort, no?

Again, I’m not at all suggesting the Knicks would be a great team had they been coached correctly, but if they were, there would be a much bigger improvement. Plain and simple.