Draymond Green Poll

[Rastapopoulos]

Any team would have to use Ben Simmons like a Dennis Rodman...not looking to score much but defending like a mofo....problem is his price is one of a superstar who can shoot and close a game

That's silly. Simmons can drive very well and Simmons can create open shots for others. A better analogy is young Jason Kidd. You tell Simmons he has to be Dennis Rodman and he'll just sit out.

Simmons is tricky because he has enormous talent that you can only exploit by putting the ball in his hands. But of course he's developed a mental block about shooting. (What is it with Philly? Fultz could score fine before he went there, too! It's where shots go to die.)

Simmons has physical gifts Draymond can only dream of. Draymond is remarkable because he's a defensive savant. (And has also benefited by being surrounded by the greatest shooters in history - check out the season he wasn't...) But he also can't shoot for shit - his shot has been getting worse and worse as time goes on. Also, he's pretty unathletic and he's getting on in years. I'd sooner not try to turn into the poor man's Lakers, loading up on other teams' aging legends.

Oh, and let's cut out the "weak-minded" shit and psychological insults. That's the mental-health equivalent of the R-word - let's try to drag our knuckles into the 21st century, shall we?

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Another guess, based on very little:
Neil views CJ as better than Draymon, Grant, and Siakam, and won't trade for them if it means giving up CJ.
Neil would trade him for Simmons.
Philly GM doesn't want to trade Simmons for CJ, and views it as a move of last resort.
Neil is taking the stance that we don't need to trade CJ, whether he believes this or not I don't know. Regardless, it acts like a bit of leverage.

If this is correct, many of the conversations here are moot.

 

[Cugel]

Simmons has been poorly coached.

 

[dviss1]

I lost all respect for him after that bullshit.

Why? Because he spoke truth to power? I have an all new respect for him for being candid and truthful.

 

[dviss1]

People don't understand how he was being disrespectful.

If I went around publicly saying that I laughed in my bosses faces, it wouldn't go well for me.

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand... Not sure where you're getting that notion from...

I have a different opinion. They BOTH just said Mgmt fucked up and you're still taking management's side...

 

[illmatic99]

Why? Because he spoke truth to power? I have an all new respect for him for being candid and truthful.

and you liked when Draymond continually kept doing dirty shit in the playoffs while getting himself suspended in Game 5 of the finals in 16? he cost his team the title that year, no?

wondering your thoughts on that kinda court demeanor given your stance on Ben...

 

[illmatic99]

My vote for Draymond is not that binary. I would like him, but it depends on who we give up to get him.

While he's a winning player who you absolutely love to have on your team, he has to be surrounded by shooters/scorers. That system in GS is heavily optimized for his skillset, and playing next to a transcendent talent like Steph makes him look even better. The same is true on defense where he anchors it, but was still flanked by all nba caliber defenders in Klay/Iggy/KD. Even his performance this past month with Team USA (i feel) is getting overrated given the talent he had around him on both ends.

Dame is a reasonable facsimile but isn't the kind of otherworldly shooter Steph is. Nor do we have the defenders that GS did. And it's questionable how many more years Green can contribute because he already has shown signs of slowing down with more injuries every year.

I don't think a CJ-Draymond swap would improve us as much as people here would like to believe.

 

[dviss1]

Oh, and let's cut out the "weak-minded" shit and psychological insults. That's the mental-health equivalent of the R-word - let's try to drag our knuckles into the 21st century, shall we?

I'll say whatever the fuck I want about his psyche and won't give a shit how you feel about it...

Jason kidd??? That's just wrong...

Jason Kidd took 257 three pointers his rookie season making 70. Simmons is AFRAID to shoot and scared to go to the free throw line.



HE IS SEEING A PSYCHOLOGIST... You really need to GTFO when you say people are using the equivalent of the R word...

 

[dviss1]

and you liked when Draymond continually kept doing dirty shit in the playoffs while getting himself suspended in Game 5 of the finals in 16? he cost his team the title that year, no?

wondering your thoughts on that kinda court demeanor given your stance on Ben...

Really? Everyone knows that suspension was bullshit.

 

[illmatic99]

Really? Everyone knows that suspension was bullshit.

He got suspended because he kept kicking steven adams in the groin. It was because he accumulated a bunch of flagrants through their playoff run, not that one isolated play with Lebron. It was justified.

Doesn't really change my personal opinion on him, but you seem keen on judging players by how they act on the court. Was curious if that affected how you thought of Draymond because you seem hellbent on repeating over and over again how shitty a guy Ben is.

Oh, and one other thing.

Draymond is like the mouthpiece for Klutch, fyi. I know you used that to put Simmons down as well.

 

[tykendo]

My vote for Draymond is not that binary. I would like him, but it depends on who we give up to get him.

While he's a winning player who you absolutely love to have on your team, he has to be surrounded by shooters/scorers. That system in GS is heavily optimized for his skillset, and playing next to a transcendent talent like Steph makes him look even better. The same is true on defense where he anchors it, but was still flanked by all nba caliber defenders in Klay/Iggy/KD. Even his performance this past month with Team USA (i feel) is getting overrated given the talent he had around him on both ends.

Dame is a reasonable facsimile but isn't the kind of otherworldly shooter Steph is. Nor do we have the defenders that GS did. And it's questionable how many more years Green can contribute because he already has shown signs of slowing down with more injuries every year.

I don't think a CJ-Draymond swap would improve us as much as people here would like to believe.

Dame's pretty damn close. And has proven to be every bit as good a scorer. Keep on doubting.

 

[dviss1]

He got suspended because he kept kicking steven adams in the groin. It was because he accumulated a bunch of flagrants through their playoff run, not that one isolated play with Lebron. It was justified.

Doesn't really change my personal opinion on him, but you seem keen on judging players by how they act on the court. Was curious if that affected how you thought of Draymond because you seem hellbent on repeating over and over again how shitty a guy Ben is.

Oh, and one other thing.

Draymond is like the mouthpiece for Klutch, fyi. I know you used that to put Simmons down as well.

We want CJ traded. We want him traded for a PF who can do multiple things. Ultimately, I want Pascal Siakam. I'd take him over both Draymond and Simmons. I do NOT want Simmons and his headcase, primadonna personality. Draymond is a champion. He won a championship without Durant. Simmons will never sniff a championship and needs a psychologist to shoot... Between the two I choose Draymond, warts and all.

He's a much better fit that Simmons IMO.

 

[tykendo]

And i feel Dame has passed Curry as a facilitator.

 

[illmatic99]

Dame's pretty damn close. And has proven to be every bit as good a scorer. Keep on doubting.

I don't want to get into this because you don't really seem to care about facts when it comes to Dame but he isn't in the same stratosphere as a shooter compared to Curry. Every statistic says so. For example, Dame's best ever shooing % from three is worse than Steph's worst ever year.

Who the hell is doubting? Steph is on track to be one of the 10 best players ever. It's no shame that Dame isn't going to be on that level.

Were you one of the people who thought Clyde was on MJ's level also?

 

[tykendo]

I don't want to get into this because you don't really seem to care about facts when it comes to Dame but he isn't in the same stratosphere as a shooter compared to Curry. Every statistic says so. For example, Dame's best ever shooing % from three is worse than Steph's worst ever year.

Who the hell is doubting? Steph is on track to be one of the 10 best players ever. It's no shame that Dame isn't going to be on that level.

Were you one of the people who thought Clyde was on MJ's level also?

I disagree. Steph is a better shooter % wise. But Dame leads in career scoring avg. & assist avg. Curry has had better players around him. Shooting % OK. Leader & Player, no.

 

[calvin natt]

Why? Because he spoke truth to power? I have an all new respect for him for being candid and truthful.

Because
1) the mere perception that it’s Kerr and Bobs fault is ridiculous. DG and KD had an on court issue they carrier over to locker rooms and the team
2) DG has been a pain in the ass to coach and manage since day one but they put up with it because he’s good. But not fun to deal with, at all
3) it’s been two years
4) they knew before this blow up that KD was 50/50 leaving and wasn’t loving playing with DG. So when this happened KD was really pissed. To show him they had his back they punished DG.
5) they say they wanted to have a team meeting and get it on the table and regret not doing so. Why didn’t they just do that like big boys

 

[illmatic99]

Oh, and let's cut out the "weak-minded" shit and psychological insults. That's the mental-health equivalent of the R-word - let's try to drag our knuckles into the 21st century, shall we?

I wonder what these guys would say if they found out that the Blazers have both a psychiatrist and a psychologist on the payroll.

 

[Natebishop3]

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand... Not sure where you're getting that notion from...

I have a different opinion. They BOTH just said Mgmt fucked up and you're still taking management's side...

No. You don't seem to understand because it has nothing to do with management fucking up at that time. It's disrespectful to come out and publicly talk shit about YOUR CURRENT BOSSES on a podcast. If I did this I would be fired. I have had bosses screw up in the past. Do you think I went on social media and started blasting that they fucked up or that I laughed in their face? Nope. Because that would be extremely stupid and disrespectful.

 

[dviss1]

Because
1) the mere perception that it’s Kerr and Bobs fault is ridiculous. DG and KD had an on court issue they carrier over to locker rooms and the team
2) DG has been a pain in the ass to coach and manage since day one but they put up with it because he’s good. But not fun to deal with, at all
3) it’s been two years
4) they knew before this blow up that KD was 50/50 leaving and wasn’t loving playing with DG. So when this happened KD was really pissed. To show him they had his back they punished DG.
5) they say they wanted to have a team meeting and get it on the table and regret not doing so. Why didn’t they just do that like big boys

First off, stop calling grown black men Boys. Let's just end that practice for the rest of your life.

Secondly, They should've let Draymond and KD handle it. Saying "you are forced to apologize" is some bullshit. They weren't saying KD needed to apologize. They didn't look at the situation holistically. KD was JUST as much at fault for the argument as DG was and to only go to DG and say apologize means they didn't know WTF was going on but tried to control the situation when really, they just needed to get them both in a room...

Then leave...

They'd still have KD if they did that.

 

[dviss1]

No. You don't seem to understand because it has nothing to do with management fucking up at that time. It's disrespectful to come out and publicly talk shit about YOUR CURRENT BOSSES on a podcast. If I did this I would be fired. I have had bosses screw up in the past. Do you think I went on social media and started blasting that they fucked up or that I laughed in their face? Nope. Because that would be extremely stupid and disrespectful.

It's irritating that you tell me WTF I understand or not... Just stop... I comprehend just fine...

I fucking disagree... get it??

 

[dviss1]

No. You don't seem to understand because it has nothing to do with management fucking up at that time. It's disrespectful to come out and publicly talk shit about YOUR CURRENT BOSSES on a podcast. If I did this I would be fired. I have had bosses screw up in the past. Do you think I went on social media and started blasting that they fucked up or that I laughed in their face? Nope. Because that would be extremely stupid and disrespectful.

Soooo KD can say they fucked up and he can't? Why because he's a current player??

You still don't know his angle as to why they even HAD the interview... And you would be fired because you are not a contract employee.

You work for your company. Stop trying to equate this situation to a real life job. That ain't it. They CAN'T "fire" him....

He has a guaranteed contract... Make sense...

 

[illmatic99]

We want CJ traded. We want him traded for a PF who can do multiple things. Ultimately, I want Pascal Siakam. I'd take him over both Draymond and Simmons. I do NOT want Simmons and his headcase, primadonna personality. Draymond is a champion. He won a championship without Durant. Simmons will never sniff a championship and needs a psychologist to shoot... Between the two I choose Draymond, warts and all.

He's a much better fit that Simmons IMO.

i don't even know where to begin with this antiquated and baseless logic. don't feel like engaging today.

you have your opinions, i have mine.

First off, stop calling grown black men Boys. Let's just end that practice for the rest of your life.

oh jesus, this shit again. nothing @calvin natt said had ANY racial undertones.

 

[dviss1]

i don't even know where to begin with this antiquated and baseless logic. don't feel like engaging today.

you have your opinions, i have mine.

He's a headcase because he has a sports Psychologist to shoot. He's scared to dunk and be fouled because he's afraid to shoot free throws... And this happens at CRITICAL moments in the playoffs...

Jesus...

 

[illmatic99]

He plays really good defense on the perimeter and in the post and he also scores well in both areas. A very skilled player and legit athlete. I don't know what you wouldn't like about him... are you actually Pop?

there is a false narrative that keeps getting propagated.

Grant is not a good scorer. He's highly inefficient, shoots a lot, and has a ridiculously high usage that allows him to put 20 points on the board every night for the worst team in the league.

 

[Idog1976]

Dray wouldn't be the worst thing in the world but I'd much rather have Simmons if he would want to be here, even with all of the extra cost (his contract and the extra assets to acquire him). The chance that we have as franchise to land a second possible superstar is not great but the chance that Ben Simmons in another situation is a superstar is pretty high actually and he's definitely an all star. If, until you know his shot is good, you just had him concentrating on scoring at the hole (roll man, slashing and posting up), making the right passes and doing what he does defensively. I think he'd be around 19, 7 and 7 with 2 steals and a block a game. He would either make teams stop doubling Dame or make them pay dearly. If he developed a shot and I know that's an if but if he did he would be a top three player in the league in his prime. The dude is 25. Just look at his numbers. The way he already impacts games. Dray doesn't do that.

If Simmons isn't an option then Dray does make us better in some ways but you're trading away your second option on offense and second best player for a guy that can't be that... not even as a slasher or roll guy like Simmons could be. So we trade our second option on offense and get back a guy who would be 3a or even 3b. That's a hard pill to swallow. His outside shooting having gone downhill over the last four seasons and him never being a very efficient scorer in general is pretty troublesome. Like I said, getting him for CJ would make us a better team because of fit but he's hardly ideal and I want better.

Absolutely agree across the board. If you are trading CJ and Simmons is moving bring Simmons to Portland. Draymond is long in the tooth and cant shoot much better than Simmons if he's better at all. People’s myopic focus on the Hawks series and failure to see how different that series would have gone with Dame replacing Embiid is almost impossible for me to comprehend.

 

[blazerkor]

The guy who needs to see a psychologist because he can't shoot is not the one I want on my team.

Not calling black men boys is apparently a hard thing for some people... I don't ever use the term "white boy" because I know I don't want to be called boy... It's not that hard.

Homophobic... What a huge reach. GTFO with that.

This conversation has gone off the rails. I don't see any problem with refraining from calling full grown men boys and everyone in here should be pretty quick to stop doing that given the history... even if racist intent isn't there. Obviously saying that both are adults instead of big boys is just as effective in communicating what was originally intended. I never understand why anyone would hesitate to stop using words that offend others when the use of that word is so easily replaced.

At the same time, you're really stigmatizing a guy seeing a psychologist. He obviously was having confidence issues in the ATL series and seeing someone was probably a great idea. It means he's taking responsibility for his part of that situation and looking to better himself. Obviously you're not going to come around on Simmons right now and that's fine. I hope we get him and you end up loving having him on the team.

 

[dviss1]

This conversation has gone off the rails. I don't see any problem with refraining from calling full grown men boys and everyone in here should be pretty quick to stop doing that given the history... even if racist intent isn't there. Obviously saying that both are adults instead of big boys is just as effective in communicating what was originally intended. I never understand why anyone would hesitate to stop using words that offend others when the use of that word is so easily replaced.

At the same time, you're really stigmatizing a guy seeing a psychologist. He obviously was having confidence issues in the ATL series and seeing someone was probably a great idea. It means he's taking responsibility for his part of that situation and looking to better himself. Obviously your not going to come around on Simmons right now and that's fine. I hope we get him and you end up loving having him on the team.

I'm not stigmatizing anyone, I'm only stating truth. He had to see a psychologist because of his shooting woes.

There is nothing false about that and there is nothing wrong with saying you don't want to trade your 2nd leading scorer for that person.

 

[blazerkor]

I'm not stigmatizing anyone, I'm only stating truth. He had to see a psychologist because of his shooting woes.

There is nothing false about that and there is nothing wrong with saying you don't want to trade your 2nd leading scorer for that person.

That's fair enough, especially when you already don't like his on court demeanor.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

All right--did my best to move the derail to OT. Let's continue talking about Draymond Green here, and anyone who wants to talk about what verbiage is and isn't offensive can go over to the other thread for that.

 

[dviss1]

That's fair enough, especially when you already don't like his on court demeanor.

It's the deficiencies in his game for me. Draymond will take and can make 3s when he's open (inefficiently).
Ben's at a point now where he passes out of dunks in the playoffs. That's a really horrible thing.

What I wonder, is why you all think Dame would want to play with him? He and Draymond are friends.