Politics Edward Snowden granted Russian citizenship

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Maybe not give everything he stole to the Chinese and Russians?

Just spitballing here.

And I do blame him for running. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. I think I heard that somewhere.

barfo
He didn't, as far as I've seen. He gave it to well respected reporters before he left.

Why do you think he gave it to the Chinese and Russia? If there is some evidence that would certainly change my opinion.
 
He didn't, as far as I've seen. He gave it to well respected reporters before he left.

Why do you think he gave it to the Chinese and Russia? If there is some evidence that would certainly change my opinion.

Edward Snowden’s Real Impact
What did China and Russia learn about American surveillance operations from Snowden—and what will they do with this information?

As part of Snowden’s flight from American justice, he went to two of the most repressive and technologically sophisticated countries on earth. (Hong Kong is, of course, part of China.) In an interview with Greenwald, Snowden said that the authorities in those countries behaved like perfect gentlemen.

“I never gave any information to either government, and they never took anything from my laptops,” Snowden said.

Oh, really? Is he serious? Should anyone believe a word of this? China and Russia spend billions of dollars conducting counterintelligence against the United States. An American citizen walks into their countries bearing the keys to our most secret programs, and both—both!—China and Russia decline to take even a peek. That is a preposterous proposition. Even assuming that Snowden believes he had control of his computers 24/7 (he never slept?), there is simply no way that China and Russia would pass up that kind of bounty.
 
Bring the evidence or you're not going to have a good time.
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Edward Snowden’s Real Impact
What did China and Russia learn about American surveillance operations from Snowden—and what will they do with this information?

As part of Snowden’s flight from American justice, he went to two of the most repressive and technologically sophisticated countries on earth. (Hong Kong is, of course, part of China.) In an interview with Greenwald, Snowden said that the authorities in those countries behaved like perfect gentlemen.

“I never gave any information to either government, and they never took anything from my laptops,” Snowden said.

Oh, really? Is he serious? Should anyone believe a word of this? China and Russia spend billions of dollars conducting counterintelligence against the United States. An American citizen walks into their countries bearing the keys to our most secret programs, and both—both!—China and Russia decline to take even a peek. That is a preposterous proposition. Even assuming that Snowden believes he had control of his computers 24/7 (he never slept?), there is simply no way that China and Russia would pass up that kind of bounty.
He didn't have the data in those countries, from everything I've seen. He didn't have it for them to take, by design.
 
Edward Snowden’s Real Impact
What did China and Russia learn about American surveillance operations from Snowden—and what will they do with this information?

As part of Snowden’s flight from American justice, he went to two of the most repressive and technologically sophisticated countries on earth. (Hong Kong is, of course, part of China.) In an interview with Greenwald, Snowden said that the authorities in those countries behaved like perfect gentlemen.

“I never gave any information to either government, and they never took anything from my laptops,” Snowden said.

Oh, really? Is he serious? Should anyone believe a word of this? China and Russia spend billions of dollars conducting counterintelligence against the United States. An American citizen walks into their countries bearing the keys to our most secret programs, and both—both!—China and Russia decline to take even a peek. That is a preposterous proposition. Even assuming that Snowden believes he had control of his computers 24/7 (he never slept?), there is simply no way that China and Russia would pass up that kind of bounty.
So we should just assume he did. That's what this article says. He could have lived his life as a wealthy Russian if he just sold the data to them. Russia would have gladly given him an alternative identity. He didn't need to go to the press if he was just going to sell the data to Russia and China.

There is no logic involved here. This is propaganda.
 
I thought you wanted facts? Where are these facts that say he would have spent his life in jail? Would he have been incarcerated? Yes most likely. Would he have been allowed his day in court? I guess you are suggesting he would not have been?
I didn't say he would spend the rest of his life in jail. I said he had every reason to think he might. Look at the way the US has treated others who tried to do it the right way. And Thomas Drake isn't the only one.

https://americanswhotellthetruth.org/portraits/thomas-drake/
 
He didn't have the data in those countries, from everything I've seen. He didn't have it for them to take, by design.
Then everything you've seen is based on Snowden's own comments. No wonder you're convinced. You're suggesting he left everything behind and hasn't had any of it in nearly a decade?

So we should just assume he did. That's what this article says. He could have lived his life as a wealthy Russian if he just sold the data to them. Russia would have gladly given him an alternative identity. He didn't need to go to the press if he was just going to sell the data to Russia and China.

There is no logic involved here. This is propaganda.
All there is is logic. You just choose to dismiss it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Size_and_scope_of_disclosures
On June 14, 2015, the London Sunday Times reported that Russian and Chinese intelligence services had decrypted more than 1 million classified files in the Snowden cache, forcing the UK's MI6intelligence agency to move agents out of live operations in hostile countries. Sir David Omand, a former director of the UK's GCHQ intelligence gathering agency, described it as a huge strategic setback that was harming Britain, America, and their NATO allies. The Sunday Times said it was not clear whether Russia and China stole Snowden's data or whether Snowden voluntarily handed it over to remain at liberty in Hong Kong and Moscow.[111][112] In April 2015, the Henry Jackson Society, a British neoconservativethink tank, published a report claiming that Snowden's intelligence leaks negatively impacted Britain's ability to fight terrorism and organized crime.[113] Gus Hosein, executive director of Privacy International, criticized the report for, in his opinion, presuming that the public became concerned about privacy only after Snowden's disclosures.[114]


But I get the impression you wouldn't be convinced if I had him drive over to your house and confess. It's all just fake news! Sounds like someone else.
 
"You jump to conclusions without facts and evidence--you sound like Trump!"

"You dismiss evidence presented as 'fake news'--you sound like Trump!"

Have we seriously gotten to the point where Trump has now replaced Hitler in Godwin's law?
Should be the case. Way too many people are far too young to understand exactly how bad Hitler was.
 
...continued from another thread

Then everything you've seen is based on Snowden's own comments. No wonder you're convinced. You're suggesting he left everything behind and hasn't had any of it in nearly a decade?


All there is is logic. You just choose to dismiss it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Size_and_scope_of_disclosures
On June 14, 2015, the London Sunday Times reported that Russian and Chinese intelligence services had decrypted more than 1 million classified files in the Snowden cache, forcing the UK's MI6intelligence agency to move agents out of live operations in hostile countries. Sir David Omand, a former director of the UK's GCHQ intelligence gathering agency, described it as a huge strategic setback that was harming Britain, America, and their NATO allies. The Sunday Times said it was not clear whether Russia and China stole Snowden's data or whether Snowden voluntarily handed it over to remain at liberty in Hong Kong and Moscow.[111][112] In April 2015, the Henry Jackson Society, a British neoconservativethink tank, published a report claiming that Snowden's intelligence leaks negatively impacted Britain's ability to fight terrorism and organized crime.[113] Gus Hosein, executive director of Privacy International, criticized the report for, in his opinion, presuming that the public became concerned about privacy only after Snowden's disclosures.[114]


But I get the impression you wouldn't be convinced if I had him drive over to your house and confess. It's all just fake news! Sounds like someone else.

Here is some more fun reading from somebody who actually knows something about it...
https://www.wired.com/2015/06/course-china-russia-snowden-documents/

LAST WEEKEND, THE Sunday Times published a front-page story (full text here), citing anonymous British sources claiming that both China and Russia have copies of the Snowden documents. It's a terrible article, filled with factual inaccuracies and unsubstantiated claims about both Snowden's actions and the damage caused by his disclosure, and others have thoroughly refuted the story. I want to focus on the actual question: Do countries like China and Russia have copies of the Snowden documents?

I believe the answer is certainly yes, but that it's almost certainly not Snowden's fault.

Snowden has claimed that he gave nothing to China while he was in Hong Kong, and brought nothing to Russia. He has said that he encrypted the documents in such a way that even he no longer has access to them, and that he did this before the US government stranded him in Russia. I have no doubt he did as he said, because A) it's the smart thing to do, and B) it's easy. All he would have had to do was encrypt the file with a long random key, break the encrypted text up into a few parts and mail them to trusted friends around the world, then forget the key. He probably added some security embellishments, but---regardless---the first sentence of the Times story simply makes no sense: "Russia and China have cracked the top-secret cache of files..."


But while cryptography is strong, computer security is weak. The vulnerability is not Snowden; it's everyone who has access to the files.

First, the journalists working with the documents. I've handled some of the Snowden documents myself, and even though I'm a paranoid cryptographer, I know how difficult it is to maintain perfect security. It's been open season on the computers of the journalists Snowden shared documents with since this story broke in July 2013. And while they have been taking extraordinary pains to secure those computers, it's almost certainly not enough to keep out the world's intelligence services.


There is a lot of evidence for this belief. We know from other top-secret NSA documents that as far back as 2008, the agency's Tailored Access Operations group has extraordinary capabilities to hack into and "exfiltrate" data from specific computers, even if those computers are highly secured and not connected to the Internet.

These NSA capabilities are not unique, and it's reasonable to assume both that other countries had similar capabilities in 2008 and that everyone has improved their attack techniques in the seven years since then. Last week, we learned that Israel had successfullyhacked a wide variety of networks, including that of a major computer antivirus company. We also learned that China successfullyhacked US government personnel databases. And earlier this year, Russia successfully hacked the White House's network. These sorts of stories are now routine.

Which brings me to the second potential source of these documents to foreign intelligence agencies: the US and UK governments themselves. I believe that both China and Russia had access to all the files that Snowden took well before Snowden took them because they've penetrated the NSA networks where those files reside. After all, the NSA has been a prime target for decades.

Those government hacking examples above were against unclassified networks, but the nation-state techniques we're seeing work against classified and unconnected networks as well. In general, it's far easier to attack a network than it is to defend the same network. This isn't a statement about willpower or budget; it's how computer and network security work today. A former NSA deputy director recently said that if we were to score cyber the way we score soccer, the tally would be 462–456 twenty minutes into the game. In other words, it's all offense and no defense.


In this kind of environment, we simply have to assume that even our classified networks have been penetrated. Remember that Snowden was able to wander through the NSA's networks with impunity, and that the agency had so few controls in place that the only way they can guess what has been taken is to extrapolate based on what has been published. Does anyone believe that Snowden was the first to take advantage of that lax security? I don't.

This is why I find allegations that Snowden was working for the Russians or the Chinese simply laughable. What makes you think those countries waited for Snowden? And why do you think someone working for the Russians or the Chinese would go public with their haul?

I am reminded of a comment made to me in confidence by a US intelligence official. I asked him what he was most worried about, and he replied: "I know how deep we are in our enemies' networks without them having any idea that we're there. I'm worried that our networks are penetrated just as deeply."

Seems like a reasonable worry to me.

The open question is which countries have sophisticated enough cyberespionage operations to mount a successful attack against one of the journalists or against the intelligence agencies themselves. And while I have my own mental list, the truth is that I don't know. But certainly Russia and China are on the list, and it's just as certain they didn't have to wait for Snowden to get access to the files. While it might be politically convenient to blame Snowden because, as the Sunday Times reported an anonymous source saying, "we have now seen our agents and assets being targeted," the NSA and GCHQ should first take a look into their mirrors.
 
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I didn't say he would spend the rest of his life in jail. I said he had every reason to think he might. Look at the way the US has treated others who tried to do it the right way. And Thomas Drake isn't the only one.

https://americanswhotellthetruth.org/portraits/thomas-drake/

What in the actual fuck? Excuse me?

What other choice was there? Aside from not running and spending his life in jail

This is why no conversation with you can happen. You're in La La land or something?
 
Then everything you've seen is based on Snowden's own comments. No wonder you're convinced. You're suggesting he left everything behind and hasn't had any of it in nearly a decade?


All there is is logic. You just choose to dismiss it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Size_and_scope_of_disclosures
On June 14, 2015, the London Sunday Times reported that Russian and Chinese intelligence services had decrypted more than 1 million classified files in the Snowden cache, forcing the UK's MI6intelligence agency to move agents out of live operations in hostile countries. Sir David Omand, a former director of the UK's GCHQ intelligence gathering agency, described it as a huge strategic setback that was harming Britain, America, and their NATO allies. The Sunday Times said it was not clear whether Russia and China stole Snowden's data or whether Snowden voluntarily handed it over to remain at liberty in Hong Kong and Moscow.[111][112] In April 2015, the Henry Jackson Society, a British neoconservativethink tank, published a report claiming that Snowden's intelligence leaks negatively impacted Britain's ability to fight terrorism and organized crime.[113] Gus Hosein, executive director of Privacy International, criticized the report for, in his opinion, presuming that the public became concerned about privacy only after Snowden's disclosures.[114]


But I get the impression you wouldn't be convinced if I had him drive over to your house and confess. It's all just fake news! Sounds like someone else.
Well yes, you do get that impression. Because I disagree with you and throw your demeaning comments back in your face. BTW, your Wikipedia link cites anonymous sources. Hardly compelling, but fun to read! I've also included this post in the new Snowden thread, as this does indeed seem to be hijacking the thread.

Here is some more fun reading from somebody who actually knows something about it...
https://www.wired.com/2015/06/course-china-russia-snowden-documents/
 
What in the actual fuck? Excuse me?
Context matters. I've said possibly spend life in prison multiple times. So if he thought he could spend life in prison (there is nothing saying he wouldn't, in fact there are very few whistle blower protections available to him, and a whole lot of government action showing it's not out of the question) that would be the choice.


This is why no conversation with you can happen. You're in La La land or something?

It's hard for you to have a conversation with me because you have your mind made up about things without evidence. And evidence is what I require to make my mind up about something. And I'll change my opinion if sufficient evidence is provided which proves me wrong.

You don't appear to have a high regard for evidence.

This does make logical conversations difficult.
 
It's hard for you to have a conversation with me because you have your mind made up about things without evidence.
You don't appear to have a high regard for evidence.
You talking to yourself? Good God, look in the mirror with this shit.

Here is some more fun reading from somebody who actually knows something about it...
https://www.wired.com/2015/06/course-china-russia-snowden-documents/

I keep wanting to leave this conversation but this just gets better and better.

So you post an article from a tech publication as if it's gospel and dismiss reports from The Times, the BBC and their political and security correspondents as bogus since they have the audacity to not give the name of a government source...? Here's an article citing the CIA's Ex-No. 2 who also says ISIS learned from Snowden. He's not anonymous, but you'll probably just call that propaganda instead, as you've already done with other things I've posted.

I couldn't read the entire Wired article because I'm not a subscriber but I was able to read the top which included the following:
"Do countries like China and Russia have copies of the Snowden documents?

I believe the answer is certainly yes, but that it's almost certainly not Snowden's fault.


Snowden has claimed that he gave nothing to China while he was in Hong Kong, and brought nothing to Russia. He has said that he encrypted the documents in such a way that even he no longer has access to them, and that he did this before the US government stranded him in Russia. I have no doubt he did as he said, because A) it's the smart thing to do, and B) it's easy."
------------

That's a complete opinion. The argument that it's not Snowden's fault because they already had everything has zero evidence to back that up. And the rest of that is just the author saying he believes Snowden. So you just dismiss The New Yorker article I gave you, you dismiss the most reputable British outlets and then you post this crap.

And do you know why I'm so sure it's all just an opinion? Because at the top of the article it fucking says "OPINION"........!!!
 
You talking to yourself? Good God, look in the mirror with this shit.
Great contribution to the conversation. I commend you.

I keep wanting to leave this conversation but this just gets better and better.

So you post an article from a tech publication as if it's gospel and dismiss reports from The Times, the BBC and their political and security correspondents as bogus since they have the audacity to not give the name of a government source...? Here's an article citing the CIA's Ex-No. 2 who also says ISIS learned from Snowden. He's not anonymous, but you'll probably just call that propaganda instead, as you've already done with other things I've posted.

I couldn't read the entire Wired article because I'm not a subscriber but I was able to read the top which included the following:
"Do countries like China and Russia have copies of the Snowden documents?

I believe the answer is certainly yes, but that it's almost certainly not Snowden's fault.


Snowden has claimed that he gave nothing to China while he was in Hong Kong, and brought nothing to Russia. He has said that he encrypted the documents in such a way that even he no longer has access to them, and that he did this before the US government stranded him in Russia. I have no doubt he did as he said, because A) it's the smart thing to do, and B) it's easy."
------------

That's a complete opinion. The argument that it's not Snowden's fault because they already had everything has zero evidence to back that up. And the rest of that is just the author saying he believes Snowden. So you just dismiss The New Yorker article I gave you, you dismiss the most reputable British outlets and then you post this crap.

And do you know why I'm so sure it's all just an opinion? Because at the top of the article it fucking says "OPINION"........!!!
It's all opinion. Because as I said before, there is no evidence. And you've continued to back that up by providing no evidence.

But yes, obviously Snowden revealed that ALL electronic communications were being illegally monitored, so ISIS stopped using all forms of electronic communication.

Snowden selling or giving that information to Russia and China just doesn't make sense. There would be no reason to go public if he had done so. There would be no reason for him to remain public now.

As yet, nobody has shown what other options Snowden had to stop (or at least expose) the illegal monitoring of American communications that wouldn't have destroyed his life. He chose a path that could have allowed him to live life to it's fullest in Ecuador. It didn't work out for him.

There is no evidence that he sold any of that data to any other country or did anything other than put himself at great personal risk to expose that our government was secretly spying on us, which was later determined to be illegal. He made our nation profoundly safer. Our leaders were elected on promises of transparency and to defend our constitutional rights.

Every one of them who supported these programs is a far bigger criminal than Snowden, IMO. And until I see proof that he knowingly sold data to another country I will hold that opinion.

He did mishandle data. But as far as I can tell, he had no other choice. And the public good he did by exposing those illegal programs should absolve him of any other crimes.

So, if you want to set about providing some evidence that allowing the government to illegally monitor American citizens makes us any safer, I'm still waiting.
 
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Great contribution to the conversation. I commend you.
I'm not surprised you think that's all I wrote. My suspicions are confirmed.

If you wish to dismiss all the people in the know and everything they say, from numerous countries around the world, and the many ways it damaged their ability to do their job, then so be it. If you wish to dismiss common sense in favor of the words of a traitor, then fine. It's a hell of a lot better than your contribution, an opinion piece from Wired, which you tried to sell as "somebody who actually knows something about it...".

You've exhausted me, and we're just going in circles. I'll let you finish the conversation by saying I'm leaving because I can't provide any evidence. Enjoy!

He made our nation profoundly safer.

Incredible.
 
I'm not surprised you think that's all I wrote. My suspicions are confirmed.

If you wish to dismiss all the people in the know and everything they say, from numerous countries around the world, and the many ways it damaged their ability to do their job, then so be it. If you wish to dismiss common sense in favor of the words of a traitor, then fine. It's a hell of a lot better than your contribution, an opinion piece from Wired, which you tried to sell as "somebody who actually knows something about it...".

Yes, police like stop and frisk because it makes their job easier. They like all kinds of harmful things that make their job easier.

That doesn't mean we should allow them to violate our rights to do it.

You've exhausted me, and we're just going in circles. I'll let you finish the conversation by saying I'm leaving because I can't provide any evidence. Enjoy!

It is exhausting trying to support a position with no evidence. I get that.

Any time you feel like bringing some actual evidence to the table rather than unnamed sources and obvious claims like "respecting citizens rights makes cops jobs harder", we might be able to have a conversation.
 
I have absolutely never come across someone who decides what he feels is evidence and what are facts based off of opinion and editorial pieces that stand in direct conflict with other obvious experts on a subject that are giving their expert opinion and basing those opinions on facts at hand. Then continues to double down on it while trying to justify it with saying there is a lack of evidence?

This is truly new territory for me…
 
I have absolutely never come across someone who decides what he feels is evidence and what are facts based off of opinion and editorial pieces that stand in direct conflict with other obvious experts on a subject that are giving their expert opinion and basing those opinions on facts at hand. Then continues to double down on it while trying to justify it with saying there is a lack of evidence?

This is truly new territory for me…
I have literally said that none of this is evidence.

I will say again. There is no evidence. None of this is evidence. It is all opinion and propaganda.

Is that clear enough? Should I put it in bold italics?

I certainly will not assume a whistle-blower is a traitor with no evidence better than unnamed people (and their associates) who were already found to be committing illegal acts in the data the whistle-blower revealed.

There is no motive for Snowden to sell the data to Russia or China and behave the way he has with the press. None of that makes sense.

What makes the most sense is exactly what Snowden and the reporters say happened.

He turned the information over to well respected members of the media to curate and report on as responsibly as possible.

If he were just trying hurt the US he could have just sent it all to wiki leaks without all of the extra risk and effort.

If it were just to make money he wouldn't have any reason to expose himself the way he has. In fact, that would be counterintuitive.

Of course the intelligence agencies are going to try and discredit him as much as possible. That's what they do. It's in the culture. That's why there are so few good cops holding bad cops accountable.
 
This wasn't a want. He was forced to remain there on his way to Ecuador, and the plan had a stop in Russia when the US pulled his passport. He was then stuck in the airport.

Now that he is trapped in Russia and cannot leave he is forced to follow official channels to make the best he can out of the rest of his life.

He did the same thing as Trump, he deserves the same fate.
 
Hah, I mean he took classified documents, just like Trump. They should get the same penalty.
Snowden turned over classified documents to respected journalists who used the documents to prove in court that the US government was illegally spying on innocent American citizens, which violates our Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights.

If Trump did something similar could you please explain what government abuses have been brought to light thanks to Trump's actions?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/03/edward-snowden-nsa-surveillance-guardian-court-rules

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54013527
 
Snowden turned over classified documents to respected journalists who used the documents to prove in court that the US government was illegally spying on innocent American citizens, which violates our Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights.

If Trump did something similar could you please explain what government abuses have been brought to light thanks to Trump's actions?

Well, according to Trump and OAN/Newsmax/Fox, a great number of government abuses have been brought to light, starting with the 30,000 acid-washed emails, the Russia Russia Russia hoax, the Impeachment hoax, the 2nd impeachment hoax, the raid on Mar-a-Lago, etc etc etc.

barfo
 
Well, according to Trump and OAN/Newsmax/Fox, a great number of government abuses have been brought to light, starting with the 30,000 acid-washed emails, the Russia Russia Russia hoax, the Impeachment hoax, the 2nd impeachment hoax, the raid on Mar-a-Lago, etc etc etc.

barfo
Har Har Har!
And those certainly are well respected...

While I know you're joking, it must be said...

Let me know when Trump and the stories those media outlets tell win even a single court case regarding their stolen election claims.
 
One things for certain.

Putin cares a whole lot more about what Snowden knows than he cares about Snowden as a person.
 
Not anymore. That ship sailed.
Did it?

Snowden gave up American Security secrets. I’m sure Putin sees him as his show winning American bulldog. “Good boy”, “stay”, “what do you think they are doing now”.
 

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