Evidence that "Atheism" is not a sound belief (1 Viewer)

[magnifier661]

So, where exactly was the straw man?

When there was evidence of atheists abusing power; he tried proving that communism was not atheists. That's when it became "straw man".

 

[MARIS61]

So let's break down when I called MARIS using a straw man argument.

I said "Religion is catastrophic because religious leaders abuse their power"

Then MARIS said "You're right they are catastrophic". They are peaceful people.

Then I brought up that the communist countries have been responsible for over 250 million deaths. So that same abuse has been done from both the atheists and religious leaders.

Then he said the communists aren't atheists, so it doesn't count.

I argued that both sides have been just as responsible for being "catastrophic" on their abuse of power.

2 mis-statements of my posts right there.

 

[magnifier661]

2 mis-statements of my posts right there.

Yeah a bit of the summary. Shall I copy and paste exactly what you said? Do you really want me to do that?

 

[MARIS61]

When there was evidence of atheists abusing power; he tried proving that communism was not atheists. That's when it became "straw man".

No, I did not.

That's ridiculous.

 

[MARIS61]

Yeah a bit of the summary. Shall I copy and paste exactly what you said? Do you really want me to do that?

If you don't, I will.

I said nothing of the kind, nor did I imply it.

 

[magnifier661]

Start:

We agree.

Religion is catastrophic.

All Bacon is saying is:
atheism = sane perception of reality = peaceful, moral society
superstition/religion = denial of reality = tyrany, immoral society

Then I said

Like the communist societies? You know they are atheists right? Over 250 million people killed in the last hundred years.

Caravan said

Maybe that has more to do with the military totalitarianism rather than the atheism.

and I replied

And that same argument can be made to religious leaders that abuse the power.

Then this is when it gets straw man

You are referring to murders committed by tyrants, dictators, and juntas against peaceful societies.

Governments are the antithesis of societies.

The populace of China, the largest concentration of atheists on the planet, is also one of the most peaceful, selfless and harmonious. Nearly all violence committed there is by the government and against society.

American society is highly religious in comparison, and is perhaps the most violent, selfish society on Earth.

So you are denying that you said "Religion is catastrophic"?

 

[magnifier661]

China has killed well over 100 million people. That's when it became "straw man"

 

[Denny Crane]

Straw man:

I say "prove god exists"

You reply "prove he doesn't."

The atheists her deny there's proof or evidence he exists, and don't deny there's some possibility he does. Just there's no compelling evidence.

The straw man is you misrepresenting that position and arguing against your own proposition, prove the negative.

That's just one of your logic flaws.

 

[magnifier661]

Straw man:

I say "prove god exists"

You reply "prove he doesn't."

The atheists her deny there's proof or evidence he exists, and don't deny there's some possibility he does. Just there's no compelling evidence.

The straw man is you misrepresenting that position and arguing against your own proposition, prove the negative.

That's just one of your logic flaws.

Really? So MARIS is an exception?

Also, as you said "No compelling evidence"; and when you also said "The only way I will believe there is a "God(s)" is when he speaks to you from a burning bush; then I replied "So you refuse to believe Khan exists?". So who's logic is flawed here?

 

[Denny Crane]

Really? So MARIS is an exception?

Also, as you said "No compelling evidence"; and when you also said "The only way I will believe there is a "God(s)" is when he speaks to you from a burning bush; then I replied "So you refuse to believe Khan exists?". So who's logic is flawed here?

Khan exists is a strawman, too.

Burning bush is objective and measurable. I can whip out my iPhone and take a picture.

 

[magnifier661]

Khan exists is a strawman, too.

Burning bush is objective and measurable. I can whip out my iPhone and take a picture.

Amazing that you would consider "Khan being a straw man"; and contradict that by saying "I can whip out my iPhone and take a picture" to prove God exists. LOL

 

[TripTango]

Again: "straw man" does not simply mean "a bad argument".

It is a very specific case where you misrepresent YOUR OPPONENT'S position, and then proceed to beat the crap out of the your new opposition.

 

[MARIS61]

So let's break down when I called MARIS using a straw man argument.

I said "Religion is catastrophic because religious leaders abuse their power"

Then MARIS said "You're right they are catastrophic". They are peaceful people.

Then I brought up that the communist countries have been responsible for over 250 million deaths. So that same abuse has been done from both the atheists and religious leaders.

Then he said the communists aren't atheists, so it doesn't count.

I argued that both sides have been just as responsible for being "catastrophic" on their abuse of power.

Now you're taking it out of context by incorrectly posting what I was replying to.


You said:
I couldn't agree more. Religion, in my mind, is catastrophic when you have people blindly following.
I said:
We agree. Religion is catastrophic. I didn't say " They are peaceful people." after it either, that's your doing.

 

[magnifier661]

Now you're taking it out of context by incorrectly posting what I was replying to.


You said:
I couldn't agree more. Religion, in my mind, is catastrophic when you have people blindly following.
I said:
We agree. Religion is catastrophic. I didn't say " They are peaceful people." after it either, that's your doing.

LOL, I was referring to Atheists MARIS about you claiming they are peaceful people. How in the hell would ever think you believe Religious people are peaceful?

Is that what you've been griping about? That isn't why I said you were straw man. It's the moment you claimed communism isn't atheists; then claimed Chinese are peaceful people. <--- Straw man; since China was responsible for over 100 million deaths in the last 100 years.

 

[ABM]

I hate religion. I really do.

 

[magnifier661]

I hate religion. I really do.

Yep I hate it too.

 

[MARIS61]

China has killed well over 100 million people. That's when it became "straw man"

You brought China into this with this strawman. Like the communist societies? You know they are atheists right? Over 250 million people killed in the last hundred years.

I agree it's a strawman.

Prove god exists or give up attacking atheism. There is no door #3.

 

[TripTango]

LOL, I was referring to Atheists MARIS about you claiming they are peaceful people. How in the hell would ever think you believe Religious people are peaceful?

Is that what you've been griping about? That isn't why I said you were straw man. It's the moment you claimed communism isn't atheists; then claimed Chinese are peaceful people. <--- Straw man; since China was responsible for over 100 million deaths in the last 100 years.

And that is exactly what I am telling you is NOT a straw man!

You aren't the only one who has been misusing the term, but if we are going to try to have some sort of productive discourse, we've got to get our definitions straight.

 

[magnifier661]

You brought China into this with this strawman. Like the communist societies? You know they are atheists right? Over 250 million people killed in the last hundred years.

I agree it's a strawman.

Prove god exists or give up attacking atheism. There is no door #3.

You sound very "Religious" right now. It's actually kinda weird, you are so against it.

So you admit that you were very contradictory when you described "Atheists" being peaceful people then? Or is this just your opinion on atheist people?

 

[magnifier661]

And that is exactly what I am telling you is NOT a straw man!

You aren't the only one who has been misusing the term, but if we are going to try to have some sort of productive discourse, we've got to get our definitions straight.

Okay let's just say "hypocritical". Better?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Mags: you're not going to change your mind about anything, right? And you must have worked out by now that you're not particularly persuasive. So what's the point of this exercise?

 

[magnifier661]

Mags: you're not going to change your mind about anything, right? And you must have worked out by now that you're not particularly persuasive. So what's the point of this exercise?

Actually I have changed my mind about a lot of things Rasta. Sigh, I will say it again.

1.) I didn't believe the universe was 17.3 billion years old. I think it is now.

2.) I didn't think evolution was even possible. I am open to it.

3.) I thought the world was 10k years old. I am now open to being billions of years old.

So I think I've proved I've been open. And the point of this exercise now; is proving how "closed minded" many atheists are. They won't even care to look at logical reasoning about a "creator". I'm not even discussing my "Hebrew God". This is just "A creator".

The only person that actually attempted to explain #7 was Trip. Others accused me of having my math wrong.

 

[RR7]

Would you define that as changing your mind 3 times? you lay out 3, you do know 1 and 2 are the same, right?

 

[MARIS61]

LOL, I was referring to Atheists MARIS about you claiming they are peaceful people. How in the hell would ever think you believe Religious people are peaceful?

Is that what you've been griping about? That isn't why I said you were straw man. It's the moment you claimed communism isn't atheists; then claimed Chinese are peaceful people. <--- Straw man; since China was responsible for over 100 million deaths in the last 100 years.

That moment never happened. I have never made that claim.

But let's compare your 100 million figure (by a country of over 1,339,724,852 people) that you pulled out of your strawman ass, to the havoc wrought by our comparatively tiny population of 308,745,538 people (overwhelmingly religious by your claim).

Keep in mind most of China's killing was in self-defense against invaders or in internal revolutionary struggles for freedom.

Keep in mind all of the US's killing was in countries we invaded or were overthrowing through proxies.

Keep in mind that none of these countries attacked us. Most of them were starving 3rd world countries with no serious ability to even mount a defense. Fish in a barrel.

Keep in mind that I left out murder of our own population by our own population, the highest in the world.

I'll go back only 50 years so we have a clear picture of where your god is leading us.

The United States Has Killed At Least 8 Million People
In The Last 50 Years For The Greedy Capitalistic
Corporate Profits Controlled By The 1% Oligarchy

In the last 50 years, the United States has promoted, financed and participated in over 200 incursions and 20 separate wars, killing over 8,000,000 people.

1952 - 79, 70,000 Iranians killed. ( Ayatollah Khomeini, US public enemy for the 1980s, was on the CIA payroll while in exile in Paris in 1970s, as were Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden at different times and in different places. )

1954 - 120,000 Guatemalans killed

1954 - 1975, 4,000,000 Vietnamese and Cambodians killed.

1965 - 3,000 Dominican Republicans killed

1965 - 800,000 Indonesians killed

1973 - 30,000 Chileans killed

1975 - 250,000 East Timorese killed

1970s - 1,000,000 Angolans killed

1984 - 30,000 Nicaraguans killed

1980s - 80,000 El Salvadoreans killed

1989 - 8,000 Panamanians killed in an attempt to capture George H. Bush's CIA partner now turned enemy, Manuel Noriega,

1980s - over 700,000 Libyans, Grenadians, Somalians, Haitians, Afghanistanis, Sudanese, Brazilians, Argentineans and Yugoslavians killed,

1991 - over 1,000,000 Iraqis killed, including over 500,000 children -- about which Madeline Albright ( then, Secretary of State ) said "their deaths are worth the cost". While George W. Bush owns over 80% of the oil wells in Kuwait, trouble will continue there.

( Source: Philip Bradbury, Insight Magazine, November 2001 )

View the 200+ Incursions by the United States since WWII
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/index.html#post

SOME HISTORICAL EXAMPLES OF US INVOLVEMENT IN DIRTY WARS

Over the years, the US government has supported coups that brought a number of repressive and brutal regimes to power, as well as the dirty wars which followed. Chile, Djakarta, El Salvador, Iran - the list goes on. In many cases military regimes replaced democratically elected leaders, and the killing sprees which followed were justified by the US government as necessary to wipe out communism--while being quietly covered up. The following links are meant to provide an introduction to the many notorious incidents that occurred from the 60's to the 80's. This list is by no means exhaustive, but it should begin to shed some light on the long history of questionable US foreign policies.

A CIA-backed coup and massacre in Indonesia in the 1960's may have taken the lives of up to a million people. http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/54b/032.html

Thousands of declassified CIA documents reveal that the CIA aided in the overthrow of democratically elected Chilean President Salvador Allende in the 70's, thus putting Augusto Pinochet into power. You may have heard Pinochet's name before: his infamously brutal regime saw thousands killed, tortured, and "disappeared." http://9-11peace.org/r.php3?r=194

Henry Kissinger played a key role in the overthrow of Allende. This article explains his involvement (which he denies in his memoirs), and details the many instances of direct US and CIA involvement in the situation, such as setting up a fascist organization run by a former PR person for the Ford Motor Company. http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/oct1998/kis-o21.shtml

http://www.peaceonearth.net/8million.htm

Go back a few more years and add 2 million more murders by christians..er..Americans.

For the sake of keeping this out of the realm of the ridiculous, I'm excluding everyone that died as part of legitimate peacekeeping missions and actual Americans. This is like a really rough look at how many NON-AMERICANS we've killed (i.e. not on our side at the time) since the 30s via military and economic intervention, rounded generally down to the nearest thousand (things with <1000 deaths like Grenada bombings not included) or so on conservative or moderate estimates since the dropping of the bombs in Japan. Hold on, this is going to get ugly.

1940s - nuked Japan.
Death toll: 145,000 to date in Nagasaki, 250,000 in Hiroshima

1947-49 - U.S. helps command extreme-right Greece party in Civil War.
Death toll: about 70,000 contributed by US-backed forces

1948-54 - CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion in Philippines.
Death toll: about 11,000

1950 - Independence movement crushed in Ponce, Puerto Rico
Death toll: conservative historians estimated about 8,000 peasants

1950-53 - Korean War
Death toll: about 1,776,000

1952 - CIA overthrows Democracy in Iran, installs Shah
Death toll: about 20,000

1954 - CIA directs invasion of Guatemala after new Democracy there nationalized U.S.-occupied lands
Death toll: about 140,000 missing and dead

1958 - In Lebanon, marine occupation against rebels
Death toll: about 2,000

1960-75+ - Vietnam War including Cambodia and Laos
Death toll: about 4,502,000 including civilians and resulting famines (conservative estimates)

1961 - Cuba's Bay of Pigs Invasion fails
Death toll: about 4,000

1963 - In Iraq, CIA organizes coup against President and agrees to back formerly exiled Saddam
Death toll: about 7,000 including civilians

1964 - In Panama, troops kill protesters against US-owned canal
Death toll: about 1,000

1965 - CIA assists Indonesian coup
Death toll: about 900,000

1966 - Troops and bombers threaten pro-communist parties in Dominican Republic
Death toll: about 3,000

1966-96 - Green berets in Guatemala against rebels, US backs pro-American forces in country until 1996
Death toll: about 200,000

1970 - Directs marine invasion of Oman
Death toll: about 2,000

1973 - CIA directs coup to oust elected Marxist president in Chile
Death toll: 30,000... 3,000 later disappeared under US-installed dictator

1976-92 - CIA assists South-African rebels in Angola
Death toll: median estimate at 550,000

1981-90 - CIA directs Contra invasions in Nicaragua
Death toll: median estimate at 30,000

1982-84 - Marines expel Lebanese rebels, aided by Israel
Death toll: 40,000

1987-88 - US intervenes for Iraq against Iran
Death toll: about 150,000 during time-frame, 100,000 during Desert Storm, 350,000 from resulting famine

1989 - US invades to oust CIA-installed Panamanian government gone rouge
Death toll: 2,000

1992-94 - US-led occupation of Somalia during civil war
Death toll: 50,000 in combat, 300,000 by starvation

2001+ - US Occupies Afghanistan
Death toll: 120,000 including civilians and combatants and resulting Opium Wars

2003+ - Iraqi War
Death toll: 665,000 also by starvation, displacement


TOTAL: 10,431,000

And that doesn't even include POWs, classified information, and WW2 pre-nuke!

Source(s):

http://japanifik.wordpress.com/2008/08/0…
http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asah…
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3…
http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/…
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia…
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/st…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6…

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081217214603AA4Ev5m

 

[magnifier661]

Would you define that as changing your mind 3 times? you lay out 3, you do know 1 and 2 are the same, right?

1 and 2 are definitely not the same.

 

[MARIS61]

You sound very "Religious" right now. It's actually kinda weird, you are so against it.

So you admit that you were very contradictory when you described "Atheists" being peaceful people then? Or is this just your opinion on atheist people?

No, you are combining your post with mine and saying it's all mine.

http://www.lollie.com/happy/cutandpaste.html

Here's a counter for US military spending this year, and also since you logged on:

http://www.lovearth.net/

There's your deficit issues in a nutshell.

 

[RR7]

1 and 3, sorry.

 

[magnifier661]

That moment never happened. I have never made that claim.

But let's compare your 100 million figure (by a country of over 1,339,724,852 people) that you pulled out of your strawman ass, to the havoc wrought by our comparatively tiny population of 308,745,538 people (overwhelmingly religious by your claim).

Keep in mind most of China's killing was in self-defense against invaders or in internal revolutionary struggles for freedom.

Keep in mind all of the US's killing was in countries we invaded or were overthrowing through proxies.

Keep in mind that none of these countries attacked us. Most of them were starving 3rd world countries with no serious ability to even mount a defense. Fish in a barrel.

Keep in mind that I left out murder of our own population by our own population, the highest in the world.

I'll go back only 50 years so we have a clear picture of where your god is leading us.

The United States Has Killed At Least 8 Million People
In The Last 50 Years For The Greedy Capitalistic
Corporate Profits Controlled By The 1% Oligarchy

In the last 50 years, the United States has promoted, financed and participated in over 200 incursions and 20 separate wars, killing over 8,000,000 people.

1952 - 79, 70,000 Iranians killed. ( Ayatollah Khomeini, US public enemy for the 1980s, was on the CIA payroll while in exile in Paris in 1970s, as were Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden at different times and in different places. )

1954 - 120,000 Guatemalans killed

1954 - 1975, 4,000,000 Vietnamese and Cambodians killed.

1965 - 3,000 Dominican Republicans killed

1965 - 800,000 Indonesians killed

1973 - 30,000 Chileans killed

1975 - 250,000 East Timorese killed

1970s - 1,000,000 Angolans killed

1984 - 30,000 Nicaraguans killed

1980s - 80,000 El Salvadoreans killed

1989 - 8,000 Panamanians killed in an attempt to capture George H. Bush's CIA partner now turned enemy, Manuel Noriega,

1980s - over 700,000 Libyans, Grenadians, Somalians, Haitians, Afghanistanis, Sudanese, Brazilians, Argentineans and Yugoslavians killed,

1991 - over 1,000,000 Iraqis killed, including over 500,000 children -- about which Madeline Albright ( then, Secretary of State ) said "their deaths are worth the cost". While George W. Bush owns over 80% of the oil wells in Kuwait, trouble will continue there.

( Source: Philip Bradbury, Insight Magazine, November 2001 )

View the 200+ Incursions by the United States since WWII
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/index.html#post

SOME HISTORICAL EXAMPLES OF US INVOLVEMENT IN DIRTY WARS

Over the years, the US government has supported coups that brought a number of repressive and brutal regimes to power, as well as the dirty wars which followed. Chile, Djakarta, El Salvador, Iran - the list goes on. In many cases military regimes replaced democratically elected leaders, and the killing sprees which followed were justified by the US government as necessary to wipe out communism--while being quietly covered up. The following links are meant to provide an introduction to the many notorious incidents that occurred from the 60's to the 80's. This list is by no means exhaustive, but it should begin to shed some light on the long history of questionable US foreign policies.

A CIA-backed coup and massacre in Indonesia in the 1960's may have taken the lives of up to a million people. http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/54b/032.html

Thousands of declassified CIA documents reveal that the CIA aided in the overthrow of democratically elected Chilean President Salvador Allende in the 70's, thus putting Augusto Pinochet into power. You may have heard Pinochet's name before: his infamously brutal regime saw thousands killed, tortured, and "disappeared." http://9-11peace.org/r.php3?r=194

Henry Kissinger played a key role in the overthrow of Allende. This article explains his involvement (which he denies in his memoirs), and details the many instances of direct US and CIA involvement in the situation, such as setting up a fascist organization run by a former PR person for the Ford Motor Company. http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/oct1998/kis-o21.shtml

http://www.peaceonearth.net/8million.htm

Go back a few more years and add 2 million more murders by christians..er..Americans.

For the sake of keeping this out of the realm of the ridiculous, I'm excluding everyone that died as part of legitimate peacekeeping missions and actual Americans. This is like a really rough look at how many NON-AMERICANS we've killed (i.e. not on our side at the time) since the 30s via military and economic intervention, rounded generally down to the nearest thousand (things with <1000 deaths like Grenada bombings not included) or so on conservative or moderate estimates since the dropping of the bombs in Japan. Hold on, this is going to get ugly.

1940s - nuked Japan.
Death toll: 145,000 to date in Nagasaki, 250,000 in Hiroshima

1947-49 - U.S. helps command extreme-right Greece party in Civil War.
Death toll: about 70,000 contributed by US-backed forces

1948-54 - CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion in Philippines.
Death toll: about 11,000

1950 - Independence movement crushed in Ponce, Puerto Rico
Death toll: conservative historians estimated about 8,000 peasants

1950-53 - Korean War
Death toll: about 1,776,000

1952 - CIA overthrows Democracy in Iran, installs Shah
Death toll: about 20,000

1954 - CIA directs invasion of Guatemala after new Democracy there nationalized U.S.-occupied lands
Death toll: about 140,000 missing and dead

1958 - In Lebanon, marine occupation against rebels
Death toll: about 2,000

1960-75+ - Vietnam War including Cambodia and Laos
Death toll: about 4,502,000 including civilians and resulting famines (conservative estimates)

1961 - Cuba's Bay of Pigs Invasion fails
Death toll: about 4,000

1963 - In Iraq, CIA organizes coup against President and agrees to back formerly exiled Saddam
Death toll: about 7,000 including civilians

1964 - In Panama, troops kill protesters against US-owned canal
Death toll: about 1,000

1965 - CIA assists Indonesian coup
Death toll: about 900,000

1966 - Troops and bombers threaten pro-communist parties in Dominican Republic
Death toll: about 3,000

1966-96 - Green berets in Guatemala against rebels, US backs pro-American forces in country until 1996
Death toll: about 200,000

1970 - Directs marine invasion of Oman
Death toll: about 2,000

1973 - CIA directs coup to oust elected Marxist president in Chile
Death toll: 30,000... 3,000 later disappeared under US-installed dictator

1976-92 - CIA assists South-African rebels in Angola
Death toll: median estimate at 550,000

1981-90 - CIA directs Contra invasions in Nicaragua
Death toll: median estimate at 30,000

1982-84 - Marines expel Lebanese rebels, aided by Israel
Death toll: 40,000

1987-88 - US intervenes for Iraq against Iran
Death toll: about 150,000 during time-frame, 100,000 during Desert Storm, 350,000 from resulting famine

1989 - US invades to oust CIA-installed Panamanian government gone rouge
Death toll: 2,000

1992-94 - US-led occupation of Somalia during civil war
Death toll: 50,000 in combat, 300,000 by starvation

2001+ - US Occupies Afghanistan
Death toll: 120,000 including civilians and combatants and resulting Opium Wars

2003+ - Iraqi War
Death toll: 665,000 also by starvation, displacement


TOTAL: 10,431,000

And that doesn't even include POWs, classified information, and WW2 pre-nuke!

Source(s):

http://japanifik.wordpress.com/2008/08/0…
http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asah…
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3…
http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/…
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia…
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/st…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6…

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081217214603AA4Ev5m

Wow that went way off topic! So what you are trying to say is the United States Government are "war mongers"? They are the scum of the world? At least that's what I'm getting from this.

P.S. If you don't think China's involvement in the "Korean War" doesn't count; then I guess that's your opinion. Also, China's involvement in the other "South East Asian" countries, and "Russia as well" is completely flying in left field.

Talk about conspiracy theorist. YIKES!

 

[magnifier661]

1 and 3, sorry.

No problem; but it still really isn't the same. One can think the universe is 17.3 billion years old; but think the Earth could have been created much earlier. At least that's what I think. Why do you think they are the same?

 

[RR7]

oops, sorry, misread it, you're right.