F'd up move by Israel

[jlprk]

With 700 people on the ships, the ships had galleys. Kitchens. They had carving knives in the galleys. There were absolutely no guns on the ships.

 

[maxiep]

With 700 people on the ships, the ships had galleys. Kitchens. They had carving knives in the galleys. There were absolutely no guns on the ships.

I often carve food with a machete. I'm waiting for someone to explain to me if the goal was to deliver "humanitarian aid" to Gaza, why they just didn't dock in Egypt and have it transported via land?

 

[Minstrel]

Minstrel, is it your contention that this incident was undertaken with innocent motives, i.e., just to get Gaza humanitarian aid? If so, I'd like your reasoning why you believe that condition to be so.

I don't personally know if it was innocent in motive or not. None of my posts on the thread regard that.

That said, I don't think the burden of proof is on the ship to show that it was innocent. The burden of proof is on the Israelis to show that it was smuggling contraband arms in, or on conspiracy theorists to prove that this was a set-up. Of course, I'm don't think a "set-up" is illegal...so even if it was, the Israelis were conned into doing something stupid.

 

[jlprk]

I read about it last night, but not today. So after a day of searching every drawer and cabinet, did the Israelis find a machete stored away somewhere? As of the articles last night, no such weapon had been seen by the Israelis, either in use or stored away. As for why the world doesn't trust Israel to take care of the supplies and give them to the needy people, it's because they have blocked such transportation before. That's the whole reason the people need the supplies.

Maxiep, I know you'll always defend Israel and the war Bush started to help Israel. You are probably motivated by religion, so you aren't going to change, so I will refrain from arguing with you. (A second reason might just be that you're a bulldog in an argument and just won't quit, so I'll save my time.)

 

[Denny Crane]

My take is that Turkey is a moderate and democratic Muslim nation, not really an enemy to israel - more of an ally all along. This incident does not help that relationship...

That there has been a blockade for some time is plenty of warning/notice to anyone that they're subject to being boarded, turned back, or even sunk if they try to run the blockade.

It's clear the intent of the Turkish ships was to run the blockade.

It's not very relevant that the boarding took place in international waters; it's not like this all happened off the coast of Texas in the Gulf of Mexico.

maxiep's articles are proof enough for me that some of these ships are allowed to pass and their cargo distributed as aid. They're proof enough for me that some ships still try to bring in arms and are turned back. Oddly, no gunfight or killings in those incidents, eh?

Brian's points are well founded. The GCs (it's plural!) do put strict guidelines on what a military force is allowed to do with civilians under their "care" but when a civilian attacks a soldier, the soldier may well fight back. Duh.

A true aid ship's crew and passengers would not be armed and would not fight against such a boarding party.

There is nothing resembling somali pirates in this, that argument is outright bogus. The Israellis were literally the nation's coast guard and/or navy, not some bunch of hoodlums out to kidnap people for ransom and sack ships for their cargo.

 

[MARIS61]

Yeah, Israel is just paranoid. No one has ill will toward the Jews or the State of Israel.

The "State of Israel"?

What a joke. This is the same criminal organization that recently posed as 19 citizens from allies of Israel and savagely murdered a businessman in a Dubai hotel.

Israel is a terrorist state and nothing more, and the US needs to cut ties with them and condemn them as such.

 

[MARIS61]

There is nothing resembling somali pirates in this, that argument is outright bogus. The Israellis were literally the nation's coast guard and/or navy, not some bunch of hoodlums out to kidnap people for ransom and sack ships for their cargo.

That's exactly what Israel is. They kidnap, they torture, but mostly they just like to kill Arabs. That's how they roll.

 

[MARIS61]

I often carve food with a machete. I'm waiting for someone to explain to me if the goal was to deliver "humanitarian aid" to Gaza, why they just didn't dock in Egypt and have it transported via land?

I suspect time, the logistics and transportation costs, in addition to the strong chance of being attacked and robbed on land would be factors.

That and the fact that Israel has no legitimate right to board ships by force in International waters.

 

[MARIS61]

Yes. One of my links has a photo of what was confiscated. They were minor, but of course carrying weapons on this trip wasn't the point. It was to run the blockade or force the Israelis to respond. If the blockade becomes null and void, then you start bringing in the serious weaponry.

[video=youtube;3zgeQmzV9kk]

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Yeah, Israel is just paranoid. No one has ill will toward the Jews or the State of Israel.

People hating Jews or Israel doesn't give Israel the authority to board a ship in international waters like pirates.

 

[MARIS61]

You subtly but meaningfully changed it in building your examples. MARIS said "Fuck Israel" not "Fuck Israelis." As oldmangrouch noted, criticizing a nation is generally shorthand for their government and international presence, not every person within its borders. It's not being a Nazi sympathizer to criticize Israeli policy.

My message exactly.

I consider myself an American, and one who is loyal to my country and it's citizens. But I support or agree with very few of the US Government's acts/attacks abroad.

Born and raised in Lake Oswego, I obviously have many Jewish friends.

 

[MARIS61]

Or Part Three, it's not generally understood by people who don't have to live it every day.

Few points here.

First, the Geneva Conventions govern humanitarian treatment of people in time of war. Is this being considered an act of war? I don't know. I'd surmise that since a uniformed group of a country's military attacked another country on the high seas, whether it's Turkish aid workers, Liberian-flagged cruise ships, etc., it's considered war and not piracy or another criminal act. But again, I don't know much about this.
Second, a civilian is one who "doesn't take part in hostilities". It's not really tough, or irrational. If the Israeli troops were committing a military act against an "aid vessel" of nurses and missionaries, then they're bound by GC protocol on their new prisoners in the civilian category. They can't just shoot them b/c they took over the ship...that's a War Crime. If you pick up a gun and try to repel boarders, you're now a combatant. Different rules apply to you.
So yes, if someone is attacked in their home during war, it's a war crime. It's not supposed to happen. If it does, and you shoot back (b/c you don't want to die at the hands of a war criminal) then you just became a combatant. If someone attacked in their home outside of war, it's a criminal act, not a war act.

Either way, it's your obvious natural-born right to take whatever means you deem necessary to defend your life from armed invaders, no matter what "rules" a few countries made up 61 friggin' years ago in the pretense of civilizing war.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177169

IDF: Global Jihad on flotilla
By YAAKOV KATZ
06/01/2010 22:41

50 of Mavi Marmara passengers tied to global jihad network, refusing to identify themselves.

Dozens of passengers who were aboard the Mavi Marmara Turkish passenger ship are suspected of having connections with global jihad-affiliated terrorist organizations, defense officials said on Tuesday, amid growing concerns that Turkish warships would accompany a future flotilla to the Gaza Strip.

According to the defense officials, the IDF has identified about 50 passengers on the ship who could have terrorist connections with global jihad-affiliated groups.

During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles, as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, at least nine foreign activists were killed during the navy’s takeover of the Mavi Marmara, which was trying to break Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip.

The group of over 50 passengers with possible terror connections have refused to identify themselves and were not carrying passports. Many of them were carrying envelopes packed with thousands of dollars in cash.

The military is working to identify the passengers and is looking into the possibility that some of them have been involved in terror attacks. Some of them are apparently known Islamic extremists.

“This is the group that was behind the violent lynch against the naval commandos,” a defense official said. “They came on board the ship prepared and after they had trained for the expected navy takeover.”

Late Tuesday, there were reports that Issam al-Budur, Jordan’s consul in Israel, reached an agreement with Israel according to which another group of 124 detained flotilla activists would be taken by bus to Jordan and sent from there to their home countries. The detainees are Jordanian, Mauritanian, Moroccan, Kuwaiti, Pakistani, Indonesian and Syrian.

Meanwhile Tuesday, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned Israel not to test Ankara’s patience.

“Turkey’s hostility is as strong as its friendship is valuable,” he said. “Israel in no way can legitimize this murder, it cannot wash its hand of this blood.”

This comment, officials said, could signify a change in Turkish military posture in the event that another flotilla is dispatched to the Gaza Strip. One official said that the chances that Turkey would send navy ships were slim – due to its membership in NATO – but that the issue was of great concern.

“This is a definite possibility that we need to prepare for,” a senior defense official said.

The flotilla that arrived late on Sunday night comprised six ships, and another two ships, including the Rachel Corrie, are expected to attempt to enter Israeli waters in the coming days.

Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza Movement, which organized the flotilla, said that two vessels, one a cargo ship and another carrying about three dozen passengers, would arrive in the region late this week or early next week.

“This initiative is not going to stop,” she said from the group’s base in Cyprus. “We think eventually Israel will get some kind of common sense. They’re going to have to stop the blockade of Gaza, and one of the ways to do this is for us to continue to send the boats.”

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen described the Rachel Corrie as Irish-owned and said it should be allowed to finish its mission, according to Reuters. The ship was carrying 15 activists, including a northern Irish Nobel Peace laureate.

“The government has formally requested the Israeli government to allow the Irish-owned ship... to be allowed to complete its journey unimpeded and discharge its humanitarian cargo in Gaza,” Cowen told members of parliament in Dublin.

Navy sources said that the ships sailing toward Gaza would be intercepted the same way the flotilla was stopped on Monday morning, although it had yet to be decided if the operation would be carried out by Shayetet 13, the navy’s commando unit.

“We are tracking the ships and are under orders to stop them,” a top navy officer said.

According to the sources, in a future operation, the navy would use more force.

“We boarded the ship [the Mavi Marmara] and were attacked as if it were a war,” one officer said. “That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it were a war.”

 

[maxiep]

I read about it last night, but not today. So after a day of searching every drawer and cabinet, did the Israelis find a machete stored away somewhere? As of the articles last night, no such weapon had been seen by the Israelis, either in use or stored away. As for why the world doesn't trust Israel to take care of the supplies and give them to the needy people, it's because they have blocked such transportation before. That's the whole reason the people need the supplies.

There was a photo of the confiscated weapons in one of the articles I posted. You still didn't offer a reason for running the blockade. Again, they could have gone to an Egyptian port. Are you saying the Egyptians are anti-Palestinian?

Maxiep, I know you'll always defend Israel and the war Bush started to help Israel. You are probably motivated by religion, so you aren't going to change, so I will refrain from arguing with you. (A second reason might just be that you're a bulldog in an argument and just won't quit, so I'll save my time.)

I defend Israel because I believe the Jews deserve a homeland so they're not subject to a second Holocaust. One side in this conflict wants to drive the other in the sea; the other side in this conflict agreed to a two-state solution. Also, Israel is one of two true democracies in the Middle East (the other being Iraq). I think democracies are worth supporting. As for being motivated by religion, it's a logical guess, but I know little if anything about religion. As for being a bulldog, that's probably true; when I think I'm right, I'm probably too agressive in stating my point. Thanks for the awareness lesson.

 

[maxiep]

I don't personally know if it was innocent in motive or not. None of my posts on the thread regard that.

That said, I don't think the burden of proof is on the ship to show that it was innocent. The burden of proof is on the Israelis to show that it was smuggling contraband arms in, or on conspiracy theorists to prove that this was a set-up. Of course, I'm don't think a "set-up" is illegal...so even if it was, the Israelis were conned into doing something stupid.

The ship was trying to run a blockade. That action implies guilt. We agree the Israelis were suckered into acting stupidly.

 

[maxiep]

People hating Jews or Israel doesn't give Israel the authority to board a ship in international waters like pirates.

An internationally recognized blockade on Gaza says differently.

 

[maxiep]

My message exactly.

I consider myself an American, and one who is loyal to my country and it's citizens. But I support or agree with very few of the US Government's acts/attacks abroad.

Born and raised in Lake Oswego, I obviously have many Jewish friends.

I was raised in LO, too. If you think Lake Oswego has a substantial Jewish community, I would say you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[MARIS61]

I was raised in LO, too. If you think Lake Oswego has a substantial Jewish community, I would say you have no idea what you're talking about.

This was in the 50's-70's, but many are still there. They own about half of the lakeside homes. maybe they just don't like to hang with you?

 

[MARIS61]

From Wiki:

2009
* A Palestinian Red Crescent aid worker was killed during the Gaza War by the Israeli military.

2010

* At least 20 people (mostly Turkish citizens) were killed during Israeli navy attack on humanitarian aid convoy for Gaza.

Not the first time, nor the last I suspect.

 

[maxiep]

This was in the 50's-70's, but many are still there. They own about half of the lakeside homes. maybe they just don't like to hang with you?

Or, more likely, you've never lived anywhere with a real Jewish community.

 

[barfo]

The ship was trying to run a blockade. That action implies guilt. We agree the Israelis were suckered into acting stupidly.

I don't think that's literally true. They apparently announced their intention to run the blockade, and they were headed in the right direction to do so. However, they were still far from the actual blockade.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

I don't think that's literally true. They apparently announced their intention to run the blockade, and they were headed in the right direction to do so. However, they were still far from the actual blockade.

barfo

Um, okay. I would take the Turks and the Palestinians at their word if they say they're going to try to commit an act of malfeasance.

 

[barfo]

Um, okay. I would take the Turks and the Palestinians at their word if they say they're going to try to commit an act of malfeasance.

I don't see any reason to doubt they were going to try to run the blockade. But it seems like intent to do X and actually doing X are usually treated differently under our laws. Don't know anything about the laws which might or might not govern this case, though.

barfo

 

[Stevenson]

When I moved up here 10 years ago, we moved to L.O. We left and moved to the SW after 2 years because, among other reasons, L.O. is about the most un-Jewish place you could find.

Re the flotilla: It was a setup, designed to create this sort of world reaction.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

There have been 9 previous times where these aid ships have shown up and brought aid & supplies. 5 Times the Israelis allowed the ships to come to port, then searched them and then allowed the aid to be given out, 4 times they have blocked the ships from landing at port and they were turned away. This was the only time these ships were met in international water and boarded by masked Israeli commandos, some of the biggest bad asses on the planet. Based on Israels previous actions this was very unusual.

Seriously, what was different about this time. I've yet to have seen this addressed. I see lots of posts defending Israel but my question is what was different about this time? Bad intelligence? Nobel prize winners on the way? Why not just guide the ships to port and search them like they have before?

 

[maxiep]

Seriously, what was different about this time. I've yet to have seen this addressed. I see lots of posts defending Israel but my question is what was different about this time? Bad intelligence? Nobel prize winners on the way? Why not just guide the ships to port and search them like they have before?

I read some analysis guessing that Bibi Netanyahu was flipping off the world community since Obama has treated him like shit saying, "If you want to fuck with us, we'll fuck with you." It was a message that if they're not going to be supported by the US, they're going to advance their own interests without regard for world opinion. They've done it before.

 

[barfo]

I read some analysis guessing that Bibi Netanyahu was flipping off the world community since Obama has treated him like shit saying, "If you want to fuck with us, we'll fuck with you." It was a message that if they're not going to be supported by the US, they're going to advance their own interests without regard for world opinion. They've done it before.

That's the sort of message a 6 year old sends. "I hate you mommy! I hate you! You are so mean to me!"

barfo

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I read some analysis guessing that Bibi Netanyahu was flipping off the world community since Obama has treated him like shit saying, "If you want to fuck with us, we'll fuck with you." It was a message that if they're not going to be supported by the US, they're going to advance their own interests without regard for world opinion. They've done it before.

Wow, that makes sense. I'm not saying that you're wrong but if that is the reasoning behind what happened that sure blew up in Israels face. Egypt has now opened the border between them and Gaza for aid and relief supplies. I'm sure that wasn't Israel's intention.

 

[maxiep]

That's the sort of message a 6 year old sends. "I hate you mommy! I hate you! You are so mean to me!"

barfo

It's completely rational. Israel is held back from reacting more forcefully knowing the US has their back and will protect their interests. If the US stops protecting Israeli interests, Israel has a responsibility to protect those interests themselves.

 

[barfo]

It's completely rational. Israel is held back from reacting more forcefully knowing the US has their back and will protect their interests. If the US stops protecting Israeli interests, Israel has a responsibility to protect those interests themselves.

Sure, and it is completely rational for the 6 year old to whine if he doesn't get the candy bar. What does he have to lose? His parents probably aren't going to ditch him no matter how badly he behaves.

The idea that the US has stopped protecting Israeli interests is ridiculous.

barfo