FINDING A PF: Number 1 offseason priority

[Blazinaway]

Vonleh is a good athlete, he just plays too passively. He has a 37 inch vertical and a 31 inch no step vert, both of which are better than Faried. Their 3/4 court sprint and lane agility tests were identical.

As far as shooting, Faried is a better mid range shooter at this point by a long shot. He hits 42% of his mid range shots from 10-16 this year and Vonleh is actually shooting a dismal 13%, though I think he is capable of being much better in that catagory, he is certainly a better 3pt shooter than Faried.

My bad, did not realize that Faried shots 42% from 10-16, thought he was a lot worse

 

[Sinobas]

My bad, did not realize that Faried shots 42% from 10-16, thought he was a lot worse

He has no shot beyond that though. I think it's true that Vonleh is a better shooter overall, but for some reason, his mid range shot has totally sucked this year.

I don't know if many Blazer fans realize that Vonleh is actually an imposing physical force. Get a glimpse of his legs next time you watch a game, he can over power many guys. It's just maddening how a guy with that power and huge hands loses the ball so often when going up to finish a play at the rim.

 

[Blazinaway]

He has no shot beyond that though. I think it's true that Vonleh is a better shooter overall, but for some reason, his mid range shot has totally sucked this year.

I don't know if many Blazer fans realize that Vonleh is actually an imposing physical force. Get a glimpse of his legs next time you watch a game, he can over power many guys. It's just maddening how a guy with that power and huge hands loses the ball so often when going up to finish a play at the rim.

I know, too often he goes up slow, don't know if that is mental or physical

 

[Trackjack]

Caleb Swanigan.
He's the guy.

Terrific rebounder. Very good shot. Very good passer for his position. Body is very similar to Vonleh... but I think Caleb has a little quicker twitch & has it between the ears better.

I like this guy also but he is player that below the rim but there not many plays above the rim now days if there not dunking. He one one the guys I have us picking at 27.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Ive read your guys recent posts of Vonleh, but it seems you are referring to the Vonleh of old.
No I haven't seen his mid range shot come back, but he has been way more of a beast in the post and been dunking half his shots. Is that not playing above the rim?

What I havent heard anyone discuss much of is his defensive improvements ( possibly amplified by Nurkic's presence, but nonetheless)
My biggest concern of Noah has been his team D. His man to man is decent, if anything above average, but he never really seemed to see the spacing and know what to do in rotations.
He seems to be sliding around seamlessly now.
So have Dame and CJ. (not the topic, I know)

I really like what I have seen out of him. Even his interviews seem to be more calculated, and yes still somewhat conjectured, but he says things that make me think he is starting to get it. The spacing he needs ot provide for him, Dame and Nurk to all work together.

Can anyone tell i;m pretty optimistic at the moment? lol

 

[Sinobas]

Ive read your guys recent posts of Vonleh, but it seems you are referring to the Vonleh of old.
No I haven't seen his mid range shot come back, but he has been way more of a beast in the post and been dunking half his shots. Is that not playing above the rim?

What I havent heard anyone discuss much of is his defensive improvements ( possibly amplified by Nurkic's presence, but nonetheless)
My biggest concern of Noah has been his team D. His man to man is decent, if anything above average, but he never really seemed to see the spacing and know what to do in rotations.
He seems to be sliding around seamlessly now.
So have Dame and CJ. (not the topic, I know)

I really like what I have seen out of him. Even his interviews seem to be more calculated, and yes still somewhat conjectured, but he says things that make me think he is starting to get it. The spacing he needs ot provide for him, Dame and Nurk to all work together.

Can anyone tell i;m pretty optimistic at the moment? lol

I agree, last year he was a rather timid player, but it's not because of his athletic ability. Haven't you guys seen glimpses of his explosiveness? It's about motor and confidence, not ability.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I agree, last year he was a rather timid player, but it's not because of his athletic ability. Haven't you guys seen glimpses of his explosiveness? It's about motor and confidence, not ability.

In Vonlehs case, Like Meyers, I think it is all in the head. Unlike Meyers though, its just a matter of knowing his role for one and confidence gained by playing against the starters in the NBA.
In Meyers case... he just needs a shrink...

 

[GDiama]

Honestly I think the front court could be okay. It may be far too optimistic, but I think a four man rotation of the following would be alright:

Vonleh/Nurkic (starters)
Davis (sans 10 pounds and able to guard the 4)/Leonard

I think this might be one of the weakest frontlines in the league, if not the weakest. Really I'd not wish even my worst enemy to count on these 4 for the year.

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

What would you guys think if draft night we traded Ed, Aminu, and one of our first round picks for Tristan Thompson? I wonder if Cleveland would be interested, I think Thompson would be the perfect PF next to Nurk.

 

[GDiama]

What would you guys think if draft night we traded Ed, Aminu, and one of our first round picks for Tristan Thompson? I wonder if Cleveland would be interested, I think Thompson would be the perfect PF next to Nurk.

In what way do you think Tristan fits next to Nurk if I may ask?

I don't even see the point in taking back such a bad contract for a player that cannot even shoot a free throw or shoot from 4 ft, but lets say he costs 2M. Why does he fits perfectly next to Nurk? Backup I'd understand, but next to Nurk?

I think this kind of choices (Faried, Amir, OQuinn, Thompson) shows the difference between American (you and of course vast majority of users here) and European (me and definitely vast majority of Europeans) style of thinking. I really cannot stand the thought of a PF not shooting 3s, for me it's a requirement to play the position. I don't say what's right or wrong, it's just my way of thinking that you cannot play PF if you cannot hit a 3, ok or at least a long two but be comfortable with it.

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

In what way do you think Tristan fits next to Nurk if I may ask?

I don't even see the point in taking back such a bad contract for a player that cannot even shoot a free throw or shoot from 4 ft, but lets say he costs 2M. Why does he fits perfectly next to Nurk? Backup I'd understand, but next to Nurk?

Thompson is a great rebounder (especially on offense), great defender, has championship experience, his ft% is odd this year though as he has improved it every year except this one. He's also not TERRIBLE outside of the paint. He shoots .427 from 3-10 and .467 from 10-16. Besides Nurk has the ability to step out and hit jumpers and pass high post, I am seeing Nurk/Thompson as Camby/LA High-Low combo.

 

[Scalma]

I agree, last year he was a rather timid player, but it's not because of his athletic ability. Haven't you guys seen glimpses of his explosiveness? It's about motor and confidence, not ability.

He can't even dunk off one leg, and usually needs to gather before jumping, so I don't know where this idea of explosiveness comes from? I don't hold it against him, with his length he doesn't even need to be some elite athlete, but let's not pretend he's something he's really not either.

 

[GDiama]

Thompson is a great rebounder (especially on offense), great defender, has championship experience, his ft% is odd this year though as he has improved it every year except this one. He's also not TERRIBLE outside of the paint. He shoots .427 from 3-10 and .467 from 10-16. Besides Nurk has the ability to step out and hit jumpers and pass high post, I am seeing Nurk/Thompson as Camby/LA High-Low combo.

He has made 9 shots in 22 attempts from 10+, this doesn't really say much. Let's say .427 is the normal one which isn't that great from 3-10. Ed Davis level.

 

[riverman]

Camby/LA High-Low combo

That combo only lasted about 7 games then Camby started mailing it in...he was a total waste of 13 million bucks for the 7 good games he played.

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

That combo only lasted about 7 games then Camby started mailing it in...he was a total waste of 13 million bucks for the 7 good games he played.

?

I have a lot of memories of the season Roy went down 2010-11 I believe and Camby/LA went off on the LaMonster alley oop fest. The year after that Camby mailed it in.

 

[Sinobas]

He can't even dunk off one leg, and usually needs to gather before jumping, so I don't know where this idea of explosiveness comes from? I don't hold it against him, with his length he doesn't even need to be some elite athlete, but let's not pretend he's something he's really not either.

Vonleh has no problem jumping high enough to dunk, he has a problem missing dunks and losing the ball, which you wouldn't think would be a problem since he has hands the size of Wilt Chamberlin's.

 

[riverman]

I'll take Vonleh as more bang for the buck than Thompson and he's 5 years younger. Thompson is going to want stupid money to sign somewhere. If Olshey brings in an expensive power forward it's going to be a Blake Griffin type guy...and I don't like Blake Griffin....

 

[Scalma]

Vonleh has no problem jumping high enough to dunk, he has a problem missing dunks and losing the ball, which you wouldn't think would be a problem since he has hands the size of Wilt Chamberlin's.

Hes 6'9 with a 7'4+ wingspan, it shouldn't be that hard to get high enough to dunk.

 

[riverman]

?

I have a lot of memories of the season Roy went down 2010-11 I believe and Camby/LA went off on the LaMonster alley oop fest. The year after that Camby mailed it in.

I have vivid memories of that season...my least favorite ever and Camby was a big part of that...he did not make us better after the first 7 games of that season..Kurt Thomas was better than Camby

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

I'll take Vonleh as more bang for the buck than Thompson and he's 5 years younger. Thompson is going to want stupid money to sign somewhere. If Olshey brings in an expensive power forward it's going to be a Blake Griffin type guy...and I don't like Blake Griffin....

He's not a FA till 2020, his average salary is like 16.4 mil which in today's NBA isn't that bad.

 

[riverman]

Marvin Williams is a top notch power forward that would be a perfect compliment to Nurk.....as a bench player for maybe his last stop in a Kaman type role, ZBo would be great to bring back

 

[riverman]

He's not a FA till 2020, his average salary is like 16.4 mil which in today's NBA isn't that bad.

I didn't know, assumed he was a free agent....I still don't get excited about him..if we bring in another PF we could do better...right now I'm seeing Vonleh looking like he's making the leap and if he is...I like it. Run plays for him and he'll show you more offense.

 

[Sinobas]

Hes 6'9 with a 7'4+ wingspan, it shouldn't be that hard to get high enough to dunk.

I don't disagree, just responding to the person who said he couldn't.

Wait, actually that was you LOL!

 

[Sinobas]

Marvin Williams is a top notch power forward that would be a perfect compliment to Nurk.....as a bench player for maybe his last stop in a Kaman type role, ZBo would be great to bring back

"top notch" might be a stretch. I'd take him over Ed Davis or Leonard though.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Lets go after Trevor Booker. He would fit perfectly. Brooklyn is probably looking to blow it up.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Cleveland moved Thompson to center this year. And for good reason, he is tough underneath but struggles offensively and defensively on the perimeter. I guess he could be our back up center and back up PF.

The problem with choosing the right POWER forward is that the opponents are no longer one type. I think we need a more athletic type of player for that position. Aminu is great coming off the bench because he gives us flexibility. But with Harkless at SF I think we need a dependable outside shooter (and passer) at the 4 spot.

 

[Boob-No-More]

In what way do you think Tristan fits next to Nurk if I may ask?

I don't even see the point in taking back such a bad contract for a player that cannot even shoot a free throw or shoot from 4 ft, but lets say he costs 2M. Why does he fits perfectly next to Nurk? Backup I'd understand, but next to Nurk?

I think this kind of choices (Faried, Amir, OQuinn, Thompson) shows the difference between American (you and of course vast majority of users here) and European (me and definitely vast majority of Europeans) style of thinking. I really cannot stand the thought of a PF not shooting 3s, for me it's a requirement to play the position. I don't say what's right or wrong, it's just my way of thinking that you cannot play PF if you cannot hit a 3, ok or at least a long two but be comfortable with it.

I'm not sure why you lump O'Quinn in with Faried and Thompson. O'Quinn may not have 3-point range, but he does shoot very well from 16' - 3-point distance. He can also play back-up center, which Faried can't.

When I think midrange (aka: long two range) I think of two players: C.J. McCollum (present) and LaMarcus Aldridge (recent past). Of course, O'Quinn isn't in the same class as either, but he does have a sold long two game. 25 - 30% of his FGAs are in the 16' - 3-point range and he knocks them down at a very respectable clip.

Here's how O'Quinn's long two game compares to C.J. and Aldridge:

Kyle O'Quinn:
2015-16 - Percent of FGA by Distance 16' < 3 = .303; FG% by Distance 16' < 3 = .439
2016-17 - Percent of FGA by Distance 16' < 3 = .253; FG% by Distance 16' < 3 = .443

C.J. McCollum:
2015-16 - Percent of FGA by Distance 16' < 3 = .201; FG% by Distance 16' < 3 = .443
2016-17 - Percent of FGA by Distance 16' < 3 = ..222; FG% by Distance 16' < 3 = .465

LaMarcus Aldridge (last two seasons in POR):
2013-14 - Percent of FGA by Distance 16' < 3 = .415; FG% by Distance 16' < 3 = .442 (career best)
2014-15 - Percent of FGA by Distance 16' < 3 = .365; FG% by Distance 16' < 3 = .415 (career average = .420)

Of course, C.J. can create his own shot from anywhere on the court, that's a huge reason he is so effective and Aldridge has always made his living with the long two, but in term of shooting percentages in this range, O'Quinn compares favorably with these two midrange specialists. I don't want O'Quinn shooting the long two as much as Aldridge did, I just want him shooting it often enough to keep defenses honest.

O'Quinn is also a much better passer (15.4 AST%) than Faried (6.1 AST%) and Tristan Thompson (4.7 AST%) and a bit better than Amir Johnson (13.1 AST%). His passing, plus his midrange shooting makes him look like a good fit, on the offensive end, in Stotts' system.

O'Quinn is equivalent to Faried in rebounding (19.4 TRB%) , and better than Johnson and Thompson and twice the shot blocker (6.8 BLK%) as all three: Faried (19.8 TRB%, 2.6 BLK%), Johnson (12.6 TRB%, 3.2 BLK%) and Thompson (17.5 TRB%, 3.0 BLK%).

With Vonleh's emergence, playing next to Nurkic, I'm fine with continuing to start that pair and see how they continue to develop. I think our draft picks (if not traded) would be better spent finding a difference make at the SF position, a cheaper Crabbe replacement and a cheaper, better Leonard replacement. That leaves us with a glaring hole at back up 4 and 5, which is why I think Kyle O'Quinn is a great fit. He has the size and strength to back up Nurkic at the 5 and the midrange game and passing to play next to Nurk as a back up 4.

As an underutilized player on a cheap contract, he also seems like the classic Neil Oshey target. Like Nurkic in DEN, O'Quinn is playing behind his team's franchise player of the future and only getting about 15 minutes per game. With Jokic breaking out in DEN, Nurkic was never going to get the minutes he deserved. Likewise, with Joachim Noah signed to a ridiculous contract and Porzingas (and now Henangomez) being the future of the Knicks, O'Quinn is going underutilized in NYK.

The Knicks were supposedly shopping O'Quinn at the trade deadline. They know he's not part of their future. He could be part of ours.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Cleveland moved Thompson to center this year. And for good reason, he is tough underneath but struggles offensively and defensively on the perimeter. I guess he could be our back up center and back up PF.

The problem with choosing the right POWER forward is that the opponents are no longer one type. I think we need a more athletic type of player for that position. Aminu is great coming off the bench because he gives us flexibility. But with Harkless at SF I think we need a dependable outside shooter (and passer) at the 4 spot.

Personally, and I know I'm in the minority here, I'd rather look for a Harkless replacement in this draft (or via trade) than a PF of the Future. Mo is a below average starting SF and after five years and 8000 minutes of playing time, I see any future improvement as very marginal. He basically is who he is (or at least 95% of who he will become).

I think there are better options available at SF in this draft than at PF. Go after a solid veteran back up PF/C (Kyle O'Quinn) and use our top 1st round pick on the best wing available. Whoever we get won't likely be ready to start from day 1, but that's fine, we currently have all of Turner, Harkless and Aminu who can start at SF if need be. Start by letting the rookie grow into a cheaper Crabbe replacement, and hopefully eventually grow into an above average starting 3.

I think we REALLY need an above average 3 and D guy starting at SF. Turner is a little above average on D, but can't shoot a 3 to save his life. Harkless is basically slightly below average at everything. Aminu is the best defender of the bunch, but his 3-point shooting is too inconsistent and decision making too terrible to be counted on as a starter. Crabbe is a great 3-point shooter, but gives you NOTHING else, and easily the worst defender of the four guys who get minutes at SF. And then there's that contract. Crabbe needs to go and if his replacement can eventually grow into our SF of the Future, all the better.

BNM

 

[Scalma]

I don't disagree, just responding to the person who said he couldn't.

Wait, actually that was you LOL!

I said he couldn't really dunk off one foot, but of course he did just that a few hours later. I don't know, I've always defended Vonleh so it's not like I'm against him, I just wouldn't label him as "explosive."

 

[GDiama]

I'm not sure why you lump O'Quinn in with Faried and Thompson. O'Quinn may not have 3-point range, but he does shoot very well from 16' - 3-point distance. He can also play back-up center, which Faried can't.

When I think midrange (aka: long two range) I think of two players: C.J. McCollum (present) and LaMarcus Aldridge (recent past). Of course, O'Quinn isn't in the same class as either, but he does have a sold long two game. 25 - 30% of his FGAs are in the 16' - 3-point range and he knocks them down at a very respectable clip.

Here's how O'Quinn's long two game compares to C.J. and Aldridge:

Kyle O'Quinn:
2015-16 - Percent of FGA by Distance 16' < 3 = .303; FG% by Distance 16' < 3 = .439
2016-17 - Percent of FGA by Distance 16' < 3 = .253; FG% by Distance 16' < 3 = .443

C.J. McCollum:
2015-16 - Percent of FGA by Distance 16' < 3 = .201; FG% by Distance 16' < 3 = .443
2016-17 - Percent of FGA by Distance 16' < 3 = ..222; FG% by Distance 16' < 3 = .465

LaMarcus Aldridge (last two seasons in POR):
2013-14 - Percent of FGA by Distance 16' < 3 = .415; FG% by Distance 16' < 3 = .442 (career best)
2014-15 - Percent of FGA by Distance 16' < 3 = .365; FG% by Distance 16' < 3 = .415 (career average = .420)

Of course, C.J. can create his own shot from anywhere on the court, that's a huge reason he is so effective and Aldridge has always made his living with the long two, but in term of shooting percentages in this range, O'Quinn compares favorably with these two midrange specialists. I don't want O'Quinn shooting the long two as much as Aldridge did, I just want him shooting it often enough to keep defenses honest.

O'Quinn is also a much better passer (15.4 AST%) than Faried (6.1 AST%) and Tristan Thompson (4.7 AST%) and a bit better than Amir Johnson (13.1 AST%). His passing, plus his midrange shooting makes him look like a good fit, on the offensive end, in Stotts' system.

O'Quinn is equivalent to Faried in rebounding (19.4 TRB%) , and better than Johnson and Thompson and twice the shot blocker (6.8 BLK%) as all three: Faried (19.8 TRB%, 2.6 BLK%), Johnson (12.6 TRB%, 3.2 BLK%) and Thompson (17.5 TRB%, 3.0 BLK%).

With Vonleh's emergence, playing next to Nurkic, I'm fine with continuing to start that pair and see how they continue to develop. I think our draft picks (if not traded) would be better spent finding a difference make at the SF position, a cheaper Crabbe replacement and a cheaper, better Leonard replacement. That leaves us with a glaring hole at back up 4 and 5, which is why I think Kyle O'Quinn is a great fit. He has the size and strength to back up Nurkic at the 5 and the midrange game and passing to play next to Nurk as a back up 4.

As an underutilized player on a cheap contract, he also seems like the classic Neil Oshey target. Like Nurkic in DEN, O'Quinn is playing behind his team's franchise player of the future and only getting about 15 minutes per game. With Jokic breaking out in DEN, Nurkic was never going to get the minutes he deserved. Likewise, with Joachim Noah signed to a ridiculous contract and Porzingas (and now Henangomez) being the future of the Knicks, O'Quinn is going underutilized in NYK.

The Knicks were supposedly shopping O'Quinn at the trade deadline. They know he's not part of their future. He could be part of ours.

BNM

I am sorry, but I cannot seriously compare O'Quinn's reserve numbers to any starter. I mean compare these %s with Aldridge's (10,6% AST, 13,1% REB, lower TS% than O'Quinn etc) and someone may think they are kind of same level player while one is an All Star and the other a bench warmer. Yes he might be a bit better than these guys (which I don't believe, but I can accept it), but he belongs to their group, not a level above that.

I think there is a reason he has played for 2 mediocre teams in his career and never managed to find meaningful playing time. He is just not good enough.