First Round: Agoo101284 vs. Ghoti

[DynastYWarrioR6]

The winner of this matchup will face the winner between Celtic_Fan/Denny Crane or Umair/Huevonkiller, depending on whether one of them has earned the Bye Round. Post the case for your team here, and keep all matchup discussion here.

Agoo101284
PG: Gary Payton / Chauncey Billups / Fat Lever
SG: Adrian Dantley / Paul Westphal
SF: Elgin Baylor / Larry Nance / Marques Johnson
PF: Dennis Rodman / Ben Wallace
C: Wilt Chamberlain / Spencer Haywood

ghoti
PG: Maurice Cheeks / Mark Price
SG: Sidney Moncrief / Glen Rice / Drazen Petrovic
SF: LeBron James / Bernard King
PF: Tim Duncan / Billy Cunningham / Charles Oakley
C: Nate Thurmond / Jerry Lucas

 

[agoo]

If you could please change my depth chart to this:

PG: Gary Payton / Chauncey Billups / Fat Lever
SG: Adrian Dantley / Paul Westphal
SF: Elgin Baylor / Larry Nance / Marques Johnson
PF: Dennis Rodman / Ben Wallace
C: Wilt Chamberlain / Spencer Haywood

I think my team is pretty much unstoppable here. I like the matchup of Rodman on Duncan as Duncan would get very frustrated but Rodman's relentless defense. Thurmond is a terrific defender, but Wilt is simply the most dominant force to play the game. Baylor was LeBron before LeBron was even a valid name for a child. Adrian Dantley could score on anyone, but would be slowed slightly by Moncrief. Gary Payton wins the match up at point guard and would be able to freely distribute to Baylor and Chamberlain.

As for the bench, I think I have the advantage in all positions except center.

 

[Celtic Fan]

If you could please change my depth chart to this:

PG: Gary Payton / Chauncey Billups / Fat Lever
SG: Adrian Dantley / Paul Westphal
SF: Elgin Baylor / Larry Nance / Marques Johnson
PF: Dennis Rodman / Ben Wallace
C: Wilt Chamberlain / Spencer Haywood

I think my team is pretty much unstoppable here. I like the matchup of Rodman on Duncan as Duncan would get very frustrated but Rodman's relentless defense. Thurmond is a terrific defender, but Wilt is simply the most dominant force to play the game. Baylor was LeBron before LeBron was even a valid name for a child. Adrian Dantley could score on anyone, but would be slowed slightly by Moncrief. Gary Payton wins the match up at point guard and would be able to freely distribute to Baylor and Chamberlain.

As for the bench, I think I have the advantage in all positions except center.

I think you win at PF and C, but Bernard King = better than both of your SF's.
I also think Mark Price vs Billups would be great and close so that's a Tie.
Close call on Rice vs Westphal too, but I think I'd go Westphal

 

[agoo]

I think you win at PF and C, but Bernard King = better than both of your SF's.
I also think Mark Price vs Billups would be great and close so that's a Tie.
Close call on Rice vs Westphal too, but I think I'd go Westphal

I agree on King. However, I think that Billups would dominate Price. He's too strong for Price.

 

[huevonkiller]

It is unfortunate Ghoti couldn't get a better center, because Moncrief was a ridiculous defender and Bron + TD are arguably the best players at their positions already. Also I would not have drafted Billups on a team with Wilt on it, he doesn't run a fast paced offense as well as various guards. This is a damn close call to me.

 

[ghoti]

It is unfortunate Ghoti couldn't get a better center, because Moncrief was a ridiculous defender and Bron + TD are arguably the best players at their positions already. Also I would not have drafted Billups on a team with Wilt on it, he doesn't run a fast paced offense as well as various guards. This is a damn close call to me.

You don't like centers that go for 17/15 with 3 blocks who are All-Defense first team and perennial All-Stars?

You don't like centers who post Quad-Doubles?

Or maybe you don't like centers that can guard Wilt and Kareem, because that's what Thurmond did better than anyone.

The combination of Thurmond and Duncan is the best defensive front line in this draft.

 

[huevonkiller]

You don't like centers that go for 17/15 with 3 blocks who are All-Defense first team and perennial All-Stars?

You don't like centers who post Quad-Doubles?

Or maybe you don't like centers that can guard Wilt and Kareem, because that's what Thurmond did better than anyone.

The combination of Thurmond and Duncan is the best defensive front line in this draft.

Hey calm down there, I picked you.

Quad Doubles depends on various things though, no I don't care too much about that. And I don't know about the best defensive frontcourt in the whole draft, but you have a case to make.

Yeah offensively I feel various centers here are overrated (that's what I talk about first usually...), but your frontcourt is simply more complete to me.

 

[ghoti]

I can stop Wilt. That's where my advantage lies.

He will have a hard time stopping both Duncan and Lebron (or King). Rodman can bother either of them, but not both.

Of course, that means Rodman will have to play the whole game, which means my already dominant defensive team will be defending 5 on 4 the whole game.

If Rodman isn't playing, Duncan, Lucas and Cunningham will light it up all day. The big men he has are great post defenders, but they can't guard guys with this kind of range.

If he adjusts, LeBron will go nuts. He doesn't have the personnel to match up with us.

 

[ghoti]

Don't get too focused on the depth chart. Rice and Petrovic are purely there to spread the floor if the matchups call for it (and those guys can do it).

LeBron can play guard and dominate all of his guards physically if that's what's needed.

Cheeks is the perfect guy to guard Billups. I have seen aggressive, pressing ball hawks completely throw him off. Every coach in the league challenges his handle. Cheeks will force a ton of turnovers, even if he is guarding Payton, since Payton will not be able to penetrate with Duncan and Thurmond (or Cunningham or Lucas - they are all excellent help defenders) patrolling the area around the rim.

Moncrief can shut down Dantley, but the opposite does not apply. I doubt Dantley is any factor in this series. Unfortunately, he has no defensive-oriented replacement to even out the matchup. Moncrief can erase any guard on his roster, especially with the support he has in the paint.

I actually think agoo did one of the best jobs in this draft. This should be a later matchup for sure.

 

[ghoti]

Moncrief and Cheeks are premium perimeter defenders. Who can make a contested outside shot on his team?

He won't get uncontested shots with the interior defense I have.

 

[Celtic Fan]

I agree on King. However, I think that Billups would dominate Price. He's too strong for Price.

indeed he is bigger and stronger, but Price would be much faster and had a great pull up jumper that would keep Billups busy. His knack for getting in the paint and dropping a floating runner or passing to the open man would make him very difficult to guard.
Price is a truly underated and under appreciated player.

 

[ghoti]

Who is voting? Charley Rosen?

 

[agoo]

Who is voting? Charley Rosen?

I think you're overstating Thurmond and Moncrief defensively. Wilt is simply unstoppable. All you can really do with Wilt is hope he doesn't score too many more than 30. I also think you're underrating Dantley. In a series, I wouldn't expect him to average 30 with Moncrief guarding him, but I would expect a game or two where he goes off. At his best, Dantley was averaging 30 while shooting 56% from the floor and 84% from the line. Cheeks is also a strong defender, but Payton at his peak is the best all-around point guard since Isiah and Magic.

 

[Denny Crane]

Dantley was a SF, not very well suited at SG.

Agoo's team plays 4 on 5 at one end of the court, this is not a close call for me.

 

[Celtic Fan]

Dantley was a SF, not very well suited at SG.

Agoo's team plays 4 on 5 at one end of the court, this is not a close call for me.

yeah but 2 of those 4 are Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin 'no one is talking about me in this series' Baylor.

that will make up for any offensive deficiencies Rodman has.. and that leaves Rodman free to hide on the baseline and dunk home passes to him if his man leaves him to double.. something he did a lot of in Detroit.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Rodman was not a horrible offensive player, look at what he did in college. He said it himself he never scored that much because he much preferred being a defensive player and focusing on rebounding more than anything.

I mean he is no Jordan or anything, but I could still see him getting 10 points a game

Knowing how emotional Duncan can be, I think we should take him out of this discussion because you know damn well Rodman would get into his head.

 

[Denny Crane]

yeah but 2 of those 4 are Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin 'no one is talking about me in this series' Baylor.

that will make up for any offensive deficiencies Rodman has.. and that leaves Rodman free to hide on the baseline and dunk home passes to him if his man leaves him to double.. something he did a lot of in Detroit.

There's no reason to play 4-on-5 at one end in an all-era draft.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

There's no reason to play 4-on-5 at one end in an all-era draft.

If Rodman was guarding Duncan you know in some games ghoti would be playing 4-on 5 on one side too. Rodman would get into his head and take him out of the game.

 

[Denny Crane]

If Rodman was guarding Duncan you know in some games ghoti would be playing 4-on 5 on one side too. Rodman would get into his head and take him out of the game.

Or he'd be sitting on the bench with his shoes off.

 

[ghoti]

I think you're overstating Thurmond and Moncrief defensively. Wilt is simply unstoppable. All you can really do with Wilt is hope he doesn't score too many more than 30. I also think you're underrating Dantley. In a series, I wouldn't expect him to average 30 with Moncrief guarding him, but I would expect a game or two where he goes off. At his best, Dantley was averaging 30 while shooting 56% from the floor and 84% from the line. Cheeks is also a strong defender, but Payton at his peak is the best all-around point guard since Isiah and Magic.

How can I overstate how good Moncrief is defensively? One of the reasons there IS a DPOY award is because of him. He was the first recipient. I believe strongly that he can erase any of your guards in terms of scoring. Payton can guard one of my guards, but not both. He can't bother Rice's shot and he certainly can't guard LeBron, who I can use to create terrific mismatches no matter who you have in the game.

Dantley is an inferior scorer to both LeBron and King. He would not shoot any 56% against my team.

I am not overrating Thurmond at all. He is possibly the best defensive center of all time. Listen to someone who would know.

"The other players think I'm the best defensive big man in professional basketball," Thurmond added. "They're always coming up to me and saying that. I get the same reaction from other players that Bill Russell used to get."

Both Abdul-Jabbar and Chamberlain have gone on record saying they felt Thurmond was their toughest adversary. "He plays me better than anybody ever has," Abdul-Jabbar told Basketball Digest when he was in his prime. "He's tall, has real long arms, and most of all he's agile and strong." In an article in Sport, Abdul-Jabbar also said, "When I score on Nate, I know I've done something. He sweats and he wants you to sweat, too."

Wilt is not unstoppable. I can make him miss shots and with the offensive rebounders I have, I like my chances getting the rebounds. If he passes, I don't think you have the shooters to take advantage - especially considering the closeout ability of my SFs and guards.

 

[Celtic Fan]

you are overlooking Payton's and Baylor's ability to get in the paint with ease and finish or distribute the ball.

 

[Denny Crane]

Wilt is unstoppable. He destroyed Russell in games they faced each other. The way the Lakers and 76ers got beat were to let Wilt get his points and focus on stopping the rest of his teammates.

Thurmond is going to make Wilt work for his points, which is the best you can hope for.

All that said, ghoti's team is built to stop the rest of Wilt's teammates, and they can score the ball plenty.

 

[ghoti]

Wilt is unstoppable. He destroyed Russell in games they faced each other. The way the Lakers and 76ers got beat were to let Wilt get his points and focus on stopping the rest of his teammates.

Thurmond is going to make Wilt work for his points, which is the best you can hope for.

All that said, ghoti's team is built to stop the rest of Wilt's teammates, and they can score the ball plenty.

I didn't say Wilt wouldn't go for 40, I said I can make him miss shots and if he passes - advantage me. (If Rodman's in there, double advantage me.)

I don't see how a team could be set up any better to beat a team with Wilt on it.

 

[Celtic Fan]

Wilt is unstoppable. He destroyed Russell in games they faced each other. The way the Lakers and 76ers got beat were to let Wilt get his points and focus on stopping the rest of his teammates.

Thurmond is going to make Wilt work for his points, which is the best you can hope for.

All that said, ghoti's team is built to stop the rest of Wilt's teammates, and they can score the ball plenty.

I can't see Mo Cheeks stopping Payton from getting in the Paint, he was 6'4" and wiry strong, agile and could handle the ball as well as anyone and super aggressive too.

I also don't see Lebron stopping Elgin Baylor. Baylor would have a hard time stopping Lebron too, but the bottom line is Payton and Baylor would both be able to score or draw attention and get the ball to Wilt.

 

[ghoti]

I can't see Mo Cheeks stopping Payton from getting in the Paint, he was 6'4" and wiry strong, agile and could handle the ball as well as anyone and super aggressive too.

I also don't see Lebron stopping Elgin Baylor. Baylor would have a hard time stopping Lebron too, but the bottom line is Payton and Baylor would both be able to score or draw attention and get the ball to Wilt.

Cheeks can be in Payton's shirt (and he was just as good as Payton in that regard) with no fear of the blow by. All of my bigs are extremely good help defenders.

I would not put LeBron on Baylor or Dantley. He gets the easiest matchup as he is my primary scorer.

I have several better options to guard these players.

LeBron is the perfect scorer for this team. He can deliver the ball to the shooters or the bigs and he is a load to handle for any of his defenders. King is not much of a drop-off if I want to use LeBron as a forward or play him at the point.

My team is extremely versitile on both ends depending on the lineup. I can match up with any team and have the advantage. No matter what kind of team I'm playing, I'm equipped.

 

[agoo]

Cheeks can be in Payton's shirt (and he was just as good as Payton in that regard) with no fear of the blow by. All of my bigs are extremely good help defenders.

I would not put LeBron on Baylor or Dantley. He gets the easiest matchup as he is my primary scorer.

I have several better options to guard these players.

LeBron is the perfect scorer for this team. He can deliver the ball to the shooters or the bigs and he is a load to handle for any of his defenders. King is not much of a drop-off if I want to use LeBron as a forward or play him at the point.

My team is extremely versitile on both ends depending on the lineup. I can match up with any team and have the advantage. No matter what kind of team I'm playing, I'm equipped.

So LeBron would guard Rodman who would just be running around for days for no apparent reason and Tim Duncan would be stuck with either Dantley or Baylor? They'd light him up.

 

[ghoti]

So LeBron would guard Rodman who would just be running around for days for no apparent reason and Tim Duncan would be stuck with either Dantley or Baylor? They'd light him up.

I could play Cunningham if I want to free up LeBron. Remember, I can double team Wilt at will if Rodman is in the game. Duncan + Lebron can bother Wilt. If Rodman is out, I can play Nate on Wilt and double with Duncan if needed.

Hey, your team is awesome! I'm just saying I have as good a chance of stopping them as anyone could.

I do think it is much tougher for you to stop us from scoring than vice versa.

 

[Celtic Fan]

I could play Cunningham if I want to free up LeBron. Remember, I can double team Wilt at will if Rodman is in the game. Duncan + Lebron can bother Wilt. If Rodman is out, I can play Nate on Wilt and double with Duncan if needed.

Hey, your team is awesome! I'm just saying I have as good a chance of stopping them as anyone could.

I do think it is much tougher for you to stop us from scoring than vice versa.

no, no you can't. Rodman is not a great shooter, nor does he have any post moves, BUT he was great at finding openings, taking the wide open pass and cramming in through the rim. You lay of Rodman he lays around the baseline open as can be and close enough to finish passes.
Wilt was a good passer as he proved once he joined the talented Lakers teams.

 

[ghoti]

no, no you can't. Rodman is not a great shooter, nor does he have any post moves, BUT he was great at finding openings, taking the wide open pass and cramming in through the rim. You lay of Rodman he lays around the baseline open as can be and close enough to finish passes.
Wilt was a good passer as he proved once he joined the talented Lakers teams.

If Wilt passes out of double teams, there will still be no open shots.

Rodman is one of the weakest offensive players (if not the weakest) taken in this draft. He did not do what you describe against this kind of competition.

How come nobody is posting how his team is going to outscore mine? I provided plenty of reasons why they won't.