First S2 NBA GM Draft Discussion Thread
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Денг Гордон
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Not a great finisher, but I think thats more due to the inconsistency in the NBA's reffing last year</p>
</div></p>
Of course everyone is great at everything; its just the refs that get in the way sure...</p>
Like, everyone knows Marcus Williams is already the next Jason Kidd, but its just the refs that get in the way...</p>
I'm sure Vince Carter would hit 90% from the arc, but its not his actual shooting ability that brings it lower, just the inconsistency from the refs...</p>
So Ben Gordon now has great PG ability, and is an amazing finisher (although some vast conspiracy keeps us from seeing it), and Luol Deng is one of the greatest to play the game. Next you'll be telling me that Spencer Hawes is the next Shaq</p>
"But they're both good low post scorers!"</p>
Oh brother... </p> </div>
Can you ever try to make an argument withotu using intentionally bad comparisons that provide no argument at all?</p>
First off I said that Ben Gordon is not a great finisher. Not sure how that gets construed as Ben being a great finisher. The referee inconsistency is a valid reason for a guy not being able to finish. A guy getting fouled with a no call is going to make him less effective as a finisher in the paint. Referees aren't the reason why Marcus Williams isn't great at basketball, why Vince Carter isn't a superman at the three point line. They can't effect those things. But if they're not calling fouls in the lane they can effect someones ability to finish. </p>
All you've done is shown absurdity, and furthering that with your Spencer Hawes and Shaq.</p>
Your just making things up. I never said that Ben Gordon had great ball handling ability. Just looking at GArenas post, I see where a little mix up on Gordon's point abilities got mixed up. He was talking about ball handling, I was not. Everything I say is true. Ben Gordon is a very skilled handler. But like I said, he picks up his dribble, which doesn't make him the greatest ball handler. Ben Gordon is also a very good passer and creator. But he doesn't always make the best decisions. I'm never saying that Ben Gordon has great point guard ability, just that he's a great dribbler and good passer, he has the tools to be a great point guard, but he has to gain those intangibles that would allow him to be a great point guard, because he has the tools in his dribbling ans passing ability to do so.</p>
</p>
Not a great finisher, but I think thats more due to the inconsistency in the NBA's reffing last year</p>
</div></p>
Of course everyone is great at everything; its just the refs that get in the way sure...</p>
Like, everyone knows Marcus Williams is already the next Jason Kidd, but its just the refs that get in the way...</p>
I'm sure Vince Carter would hit 90% from the arc, but its not his actual shooting ability that brings it lower, just the inconsistency from the refs...</p>
So Ben Gordon now has great PG ability, and is an amazing finisher (although some vast conspiracy keeps us from seeing it), and Luol Deng is one of the greatest to play the game. Next you'll be telling me that Spencer Hawes is the next Shaq</p>
"But they're both good low post scorers!"</p>
Oh brother... </p> </div>
Can you ever try to make an argument withotu using intentionally bad comparisons that provide no argument at all?</p>
First off I said that Ben Gordon is not a great finisher. Not sure how that gets construed as Ben being a great finisher. The referee inconsistency is a valid reason for a guy not being able to finish. A guy getting fouled with a no call is going to make him less effective as a finisher in the paint. Referees aren't the reason why Marcus Williams isn't great at basketball, why Vince Carter isn't a superman at the three point line. They can't effect those things. But if they're not calling fouls in the lane they can effect someones ability to finish. </p>
All you've done is shown absurdity, and furthering that with your Spencer Hawes and Shaq.</p>
Your just making things up. I never said that Ben Gordon had great ball handling ability. Just looking at GArenas post, I see where a little mix up on Gordon's point abilities got mixed up. He was talking about ball handling, I was not. Everything I say is true. Ben Gordon is a very skilled handler. But like I said, he picks up his dribble, which doesn't make him the greatest ball handler. Ben Gordon is also a very good passer and creator. But he doesn't always make the best decisions. I'm never saying that Ben Gordon has great point guard ability, just that he's a great dribbler and good passer, he has the tools to be a great point guard, but he has to gain those intangibles that would allow him to be a great point guard, because he has the tools in his dribbling ans passing ability to do so.</p>
</p>
pegs
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there's still a very good and very capable point guard available. at least one. wow. </p>
</p>
and there's another very good player out there who people are forgetting about. and i'm gettin excited, even tho i know, on the inside, he's definitely not gonna be available by my pick.</p>
i'm open for a trade, okur and tinsley are up for grabs. hell, all my players are, for the right price.</p>
except, maybe etan thomas.</p>
</p>
and there's another very good player out there who people are forgetting about. and i'm gettin excited, even tho i know, on the inside, he's definitely not gonna be available by my pick.</p>
i'm open for a trade, okur and tinsley are up for grabs. hell, all my players are, for the right price.</p>
except, maybe etan thomas.</p>
GMJ
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Not a great finisher, but I think thats more due to the inconsistency in the NBA's reffing last year</p>
</div></p>
Of course everyone is great at everything; its just the refs that get in the way sure...</p>
Like, everyone knows Marcus Williams is already the next Jason Kidd, but its just the refs that get in the way...</p>
I'm sure Vince Carter would hit 90% from the arc, but its not his actual shooting ability that brings it lower, just the inconsistency from the refs...</p>
So Ben Gordon now has great PG ability, and is an amazing finisher (although some vast conspiracy keeps us from seeing it), and Luol Deng is one of the greatest to play the game. Next you'll be telling me that Spencer Hawes is the next Shaq</p>
"But they're both good low post scorers!"</p>
Oh brother... </p> </div>
Can you ever try to make an argument withotu using intentionally bad comparisons that provide no argument at all?</p>
First off I said that Ben Gordon is not a great finisher. Not sure how that gets construed as Ben being a great finisher. The referee inconsistency is a valid reason for a guy not being able to finish. A guy getting fouled with a no call is going to make him less effective as a finisher in the paint. Referees aren't the reason why Marcus Williams isn't great at basketball, why Vince Carter isn't a superman at the three point line. They can't effect those things. But if they're not calling fouls in the lane they can effect someones ability to finish. </p>
All you've done is shown absurdity, and furthering that with your Spencer Hawes and Shaq.</p>
Your just making things up. I never said that Ben Gordon had great ball handling ability. Just looking at GArenas post, I see where a little mix up on Gordon's point abilities got mixed up. He was talking about ball handling, I was not. Everything I say is true. Ben Gordon is a very skilled handler. But like I said, he picks up his dribble, which doesn't make him the greatest ball handler. Ben Gordon is also a very good passer and creator. But he doesn't always make the best decisions. I'm never saying that Ben Gordon has great point guard ability, just that he's a great dribbler and good passer, he has the tools to be a great point guard, but he has to gain those intangibles that would allow him to be a great point guard, because he has the tools in his dribbling ans passing ability to do so.</p>
</p>
</div></p>
</p>
Holy god, holy god, holy god. How many times do I have to explain that I PURPOSEFULLY post ridiculous comparisons as a form of SATIRE, comparisons that are analogous to your ridiculous comparisons that are not meant to be satirical of another opinion.</p>
"I think I'm taking crazy pills!"</p>
</p>
Not a great finisher, but I think thats more due to the inconsistency in the NBA's reffing last year</p>
</div></p>
Of course everyone is great at everything; its just the refs that get in the way sure...</p>
Like, everyone knows Marcus Williams is already the next Jason Kidd, but its just the refs that get in the way...</p>
I'm sure Vince Carter would hit 90% from the arc, but its not his actual shooting ability that brings it lower, just the inconsistency from the refs...</p>
So Ben Gordon now has great PG ability, and is an amazing finisher (although some vast conspiracy keeps us from seeing it), and Luol Deng is one of the greatest to play the game. Next you'll be telling me that Spencer Hawes is the next Shaq</p>
"But they're both good low post scorers!"</p>
Oh brother... </p> </div>
Can you ever try to make an argument withotu using intentionally bad comparisons that provide no argument at all?</p>
First off I said that Ben Gordon is not a great finisher. Not sure how that gets construed as Ben being a great finisher. The referee inconsistency is a valid reason for a guy not being able to finish. A guy getting fouled with a no call is going to make him less effective as a finisher in the paint. Referees aren't the reason why Marcus Williams isn't great at basketball, why Vince Carter isn't a superman at the three point line. They can't effect those things. But if they're not calling fouls in the lane they can effect someones ability to finish. </p>
All you've done is shown absurdity, and furthering that with your Spencer Hawes and Shaq.</p>
Your just making things up. I never said that Ben Gordon had great ball handling ability. Just looking at GArenas post, I see where a little mix up on Gordon's point abilities got mixed up. He was talking about ball handling, I was not. Everything I say is true. Ben Gordon is a very skilled handler. But like I said, he picks up his dribble, which doesn't make him the greatest ball handler. Ben Gordon is also a very good passer and creator. But he doesn't always make the best decisions. I'm never saying that Ben Gordon has great point guard ability, just that he's a great dribbler and good passer, he has the tools to be a great point guard, but he has to gain those intangibles that would allow him to be a great point guard, because he has the tools in his dribbling ans passing ability to do so.</p>
</p>
</div></p>
</p>
Holy god, holy god, holy god. How many times do I have to explain that I PURPOSEFULLY post ridiculous comparisons as a form of SATIRE, comparisons that are analogous to your ridiculous comparisons that are not meant to be satirical of another opinion.</p>
"I think I'm taking crazy pills!"</p>
</p>
ly_yng
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Without a good point guard, you're going to struggle to get optimum efficiency out of your offensive players. The Spurs get away with starting Parker because Duncan has the mind of a point guard, being able to run an offense extremely effeciently. I would even say that this is what doomed Dallas in the playoffs - with Dirk forced into a decision-making role, he ultimately floundered. Meanwhile, Baron Davis was doing a great job of setting a pace that used the obviously inferior talent level of Golden State much more effectively. It might explain why Houston consistently can't win in the playoffs. Point guards are why Toronto is as good as they are, and why Atlanta can't get out of the basement. It's why Rajan Rondo is going to be the really critical factor in how good the Celtics are offensively.</p>
Basically, what I'm saying is you've got a lot of potential offensive talent on your team BG7, but it's going to go to waste. </p>
Basically, what I'm saying is you've got a lot of potential offensive talent on your team BG7, but it's going to go to waste. </p>
Денг Гордон
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Without a good point guard, you're going to struggle to get optimum efficiency out of your offensive players. The Spurs get away with starting Parker because Duncan has the mind of a point guard, being able to run an offense extremely effeciently. I would even say that this is what doomed Dallas in the playoffs - with Dirk forced into a decision-making role, he ultimately floundered. Meanwhile, Baron Davis was doing a great job of setting a pace that used the obviously inferior talent level of Golden State much more effectively. It might explain why Houston consistently can't win in the playoffs. Point guards are why Toronto is as good as they are, and why Atlanta can't get out of the basement. It's why Rajan Rondo is going to be the really critical factor in how good the Celtics are offensively.</p>
Basically, what I'm saying is you've got a lot of potential offensive talent on your team BG7, but it's going to go to waste. </p></div>
Ben Gordon can do a pretty masterful job at point guard. </p>
Like looking at the games where Hinrich got in major foul trouble, and Gordon got thrust into the point guard role, here are his #'s.</p>
Nov 6. MIl- 37 points 9 assists WNov 19. LAL- 9 points 4 assists LDec 6 PHI- 31 points 2 assists WDec 19 LAL- 22 points 2 assists W Dec 23 CHA- 23 points 2 assists WDec 30 CLE- 21 points 7 assists WJan 2 PHO- 41 points 4 assists LFeb 22 CLE- 16 points 6 assists WMar 8 ORL- 25 points 2 assists WApr 10 NYK- 23 points 7 assists WApr 15 WAS- 30 points 3 assists WApr 21 MIA- 24 points 11 assists WApr 24 MIA- 27 points 5 assists W</p>
Don't know about you, but I'll take the point guard that averages 25.3 points and 4.9 assists. Bulls were 11-2 in these games, 69-13 over the course of a season.</p>
2 factors in here as well. Bulls have A.) A good pass first guard in Duhon. I will bring in another point guard to play with Gordon for stretches, and B.) Ben Wallace, a good passing big man. Tyrus Thomas should be able to replicate Wallace's passing in the high post.</p>
One thing for sure is though, with the ball being in Ben's hands more, the Bulls' offense definitely became more deadly, with an average margin of victory in those games of 19.8 in those games, averaging 102.6 in the wins. Average margin of loss of 5.5 (Phoenix by 1 point, LAL by 10).</p>
Like I said, DUhon/Wallace helped the Bulls be successful in that, but a traditional point guard who dominates the ball like a Kidd or Nash is definitely not needed imo. Just a point guard who could take some pressure off of Gordon if the pressure cooker gets heated up. From waht I've seen of Thomas so far, he is perfect apt at being able to have the high post offense run through him. Especially if he develops that jumpshot (800 shots per day this summer) he will be additionaly deadly. He is kind of like Lebron James, in terms of the quickness advantage he has over pretty much every player in the league. He doesn't have the strength of James, but he is just as deadly of a finisher in the lane. The whole thing with Tyrus Thomas is just playing under control, and being smart. He has a high basketball IQ, but he doesn't use it enough. I actually wanted Joakim Noah with my last pick, because he's a finished product who can run the high post, but Thomas has the potential to be so much better at it than Noah. Redick/Durant are pretty much just shooters. Not asking them to create too much on this team yet, but Durant definitely has the potential to be that. </p>
Gordon and one of Deng/Nocioni, and Hinrich have been enough to carry the Bulls to the playoffs the past three years. So with Gordon being better than ever (in his 4th season), Durant being comparable to better to what Deng/Nocioni being, and now I guess I have to take Bynum as my 3rd best player? (or Thomas?...or Redick?), but one thing to keep in mind, that talent gets stacked on certain teams, and the distribution of talent isn't equal in the NBA, but in this draft, the distribution of talent is more so equal, which I makes you need less top heavy talent to be successful imo. I think my team is good enough to make the playoffs this year, and then take huge steps towards a championship in the not so distant future. </p>
</p>
</p>
Without a good point guard, you're going to struggle to get optimum efficiency out of your offensive players. The Spurs get away with starting Parker because Duncan has the mind of a point guard, being able to run an offense extremely effeciently. I would even say that this is what doomed Dallas in the playoffs - with Dirk forced into a decision-making role, he ultimately floundered. Meanwhile, Baron Davis was doing a great job of setting a pace that used the obviously inferior talent level of Golden State much more effectively. It might explain why Houston consistently can't win in the playoffs. Point guards are why Toronto is as good as they are, and why Atlanta can't get out of the basement. It's why Rajan Rondo is going to be the really critical factor in how good the Celtics are offensively.</p>
Basically, what I'm saying is you've got a lot of potential offensive talent on your team BG7, but it's going to go to waste. </p></div>
Ben Gordon can do a pretty masterful job at point guard. </p>
Like looking at the games where Hinrich got in major foul trouble, and Gordon got thrust into the point guard role, here are his #'s.</p>
Nov 6. MIl- 37 points 9 assists WNov 19. LAL- 9 points 4 assists LDec 6 PHI- 31 points 2 assists WDec 19 LAL- 22 points 2 assists W Dec 23 CHA- 23 points 2 assists WDec 30 CLE- 21 points 7 assists WJan 2 PHO- 41 points 4 assists LFeb 22 CLE- 16 points 6 assists WMar 8 ORL- 25 points 2 assists WApr 10 NYK- 23 points 7 assists WApr 15 WAS- 30 points 3 assists WApr 21 MIA- 24 points 11 assists WApr 24 MIA- 27 points 5 assists W</p>
Don't know about you, but I'll take the point guard that averages 25.3 points and 4.9 assists. Bulls were 11-2 in these games, 69-13 over the course of a season.</p>
2 factors in here as well. Bulls have A.) A good pass first guard in Duhon. I will bring in another point guard to play with Gordon for stretches, and B.) Ben Wallace, a good passing big man. Tyrus Thomas should be able to replicate Wallace's passing in the high post.</p>
One thing for sure is though, with the ball being in Ben's hands more, the Bulls' offense definitely became more deadly, with an average margin of victory in those games of 19.8 in those games, averaging 102.6 in the wins. Average margin of loss of 5.5 (Phoenix by 1 point, LAL by 10).</p>
Like I said, DUhon/Wallace helped the Bulls be successful in that, but a traditional point guard who dominates the ball like a Kidd or Nash is definitely not needed imo. Just a point guard who could take some pressure off of Gordon if the pressure cooker gets heated up. From waht I've seen of Thomas so far, he is perfect apt at being able to have the high post offense run through him. Especially if he develops that jumpshot (800 shots per day this summer) he will be additionaly deadly. He is kind of like Lebron James, in terms of the quickness advantage he has over pretty much every player in the league. He doesn't have the strength of James, but he is just as deadly of a finisher in the lane. The whole thing with Tyrus Thomas is just playing under control, and being smart. He has a high basketball IQ, but he doesn't use it enough. I actually wanted Joakim Noah with my last pick, because he's a finished product who can run the high post, but Thomas has the potential to be so much better at it than Noah. Redick/Durant are pretty much just shooters. Not asking them to create too much on this team yet, but Durant definitely has the potential to be that. </p>
Gordon and one of Deng/Nocioni, and Hinrich have been enough to carry the Bulls to the playoffs the past three years. So with Gordon being better than ever (in his 4th season), Durant being comparable to better to what Deng/Nocioni being, and now I guess I have to take Bynum as my 3rd best player? (or Thomas?...or Redick?), but one thing to keep in mind, that talent gets stacked on certain teams, and the distribution of talent isn't equal in the NBA, but in this draft, the distribution of talent is more so equal, which I makes you need less top heavy talent to be successful imo. I think my team is good enough to make the playoffs this year, and then take huge steps towards a championship in the not so distant future. </p>
</p>
</p>
pegs
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrpy)</div><div class='quotemain'>I also need defence.</div>
</p>
</p>
good thing there's still a few good defensive centers around. better pick them up before someone else does. diop is gone, better get on that..</p>
</p>
good thing there's still a few good defensive centers around. better pick them up before someone else does. diop is gone, better get on that..</p>
pegs
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrpy)</div><div class='quotemain'>I can't think of any good defensive centres that are left</div>
i've got at least 5 pretty good defensive centers on my list.</p>
and no, you can't see my list.</p>
i've got at least 5 pretty good defensive centers on my list.</p>
and no, you can't see my list.</p>
gambitnut
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng)</div><div class='quotemain'>Theo is automatically skipped because he has yet to make his last pick. Can someone PM Real?</div></p>
</p>
I'mabitconfused,butaccordingtoTheBeef,thepickthatwasskippedrightbeforemineactuallybelongstoGK6,sotheyshouldgonowthattheyareonline,andthenPMbothRealandTheo.</p>
</p>
</p>
I'mabitconfused,butaccordingtoTheBeef,thepickthatwasskippedrightbeforemineactuallybelongstoGK6,sotheyshouldgonowthattheyareonline,andthenPMbothRealandTheo.</p>
</p>
CelticKing
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Comon guys make your picks. I can't wait till my pick. (in two weeks) haha
Dark Defender
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I updated it, Charles is onthe clock now until 11:52pm.
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Great pick in Steve Blake
Charles
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JfizzleRaider)</div><div class='quotemain'>Great pick in Steve Blake</div>
Thanks. There were a couple of guys I was looking at, but Blake is just a good guy to have on your team. I thought he played exceptionally well w/ Iverson last year.</p>
Thanks. There were a couple of guys I was looking at, but Blake is just a good guy to have on your team. I thought he played exceptionally well w/ Iverson last year.</p>
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