First Sheed, then ZBo, now Aldridge...

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Thanks, KoR. One of these days I'll get around to putting together a comprehensive, numbers-based post on why LMA just isn't very good... Just haven't had time since joining S2.

But I suspect that eventually (2-3 years) people will come around to my point of view on LMA just like they did on McMillan. How many of you guys thought Nate was a good coach 3-4 years ago, and just recently changed your mind?

Blue9, see this thread http://sportstwo.com/threads/225411-Post-Game-A-clear-tank-job-is-in-full-swing with a similar theme you like to discuss (about Batum actually being consistent).
 
Thanks, KoR. One of these days I'll get around to putting together a comprehensive, numbers-based post on why LMA just isn't very good... Just haven't had time since joining S2.

But I suspect that eventually (2-3 years) people will come around to my point of view on LMA just like they did on McMillan. How many of you guys thought Nate was a good coach 3-4 years ago, and just recently changed your mind?

no one thought McMillan was good here.
 
no one thought McMillan was good here.

The sure did over on OregonLive. I didn't think he was good forever but it took me longer then some to get off the bandwagon. Many never got off over there and still think he should be coaching.
 
PFs who are better then, as good, or close enough to being as good as LMA:

Love*
Duncan
Dirk
KG
Millsap*
Lee*
West
Pau
ZBo
Ibaka*
Scola
Bargnani (same player!)
Bosh
Boozer
Cousins*

And I'm sure that once some of the young guys start getting more minutes and devlopment they'll be in the conversation too, and each year there'll be more PFs coming into the league:
Favors*
Davis*
Robinson?*

Now please note that I don't want all of these players over LMA. The * ones are guys I'd possibly be interested in. Nor do I think they have the same value - there's often a big different between a players value and their ability, so don't go confusing the two for being the same thing. But all of these guys have skills that are comparable or better than the skills that LMA has. No, they don't have the same PPG average, or maybe they haven't been named to an all-star team. But as I've made abundantly clear - those things have very little bearing on a player's talent level.

I understand that people will scoff and the inclusion of players like Scola, Lee, Boozer, etc - but if you actually watch what these players are capable of (dribbling, passing, rebounding, defending) and not focus on their stats and compare it to what LMA is (or ISN'T) capable of doing (and not his PPG) then their inclusion should be justified.

Well, I totally disagree. But if you really feel this way, there's no changing your mind. I still think LA hasn't hit his prime yet, personally.

If you really think guys like Pau Gasol are better than Aldridge, there's not much I can argue with about with you...so I guess we'll have to:


Agree to disagree (aka, I don't want to waste any more time arguing with those that can't be argued with
 
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The sure did over on OregonLive. I didn't think he was good forever but it took me longer then some to get off the bandwagon. Many never got off over there and still think he should be coaching.

well, people on Olive are idiots.
 
well, people on Olive are idiots.

Haha, some are but some are going to take offense to that because they are here now and they were supporters there. Smart guys too. Sly knows a lot of them.

And I think you would find, if you looked, a lot here supported him it is just always the vocal minority that are loudest.
 
Let's stop pretending that being named an all-star has any bearing on a player's ability to play winning basketball, or that somehow averaging 20ppg means that they are undeniably great. The league is full of players who could average 20ppg if the offense were ran through them - and most of them would lead their teams right to the lottery just like LMA.

right.... Camby Wallace and Matthews sucking last year was mostly about LA's leadership. He forced fed Felton twinkies in the offseason and caused Elliot Williams knee injury too

NBA coaches named him to the All Star team last year. The main reason that was sited for him making it over several other players with equal or better stats was that he'd led his team to a better record. That was also the reason the most sportswriters relayed after naming him to the All NBA 2nd team the year before. Fans are welcome to hold whatever opinion they want, but you're up against the opinions of those who do this professionally.

STOMP
 
it was All-NBA 3rd team, and he didn't get selected for it last year. Whether or not he deserved to isn't for this thread.

If LMA was playing at the level (or even at a lesser level, but the same way) he played at the last 2 years, I don't think you'd be seeing this argument. Instead, you're getting a homeless man's Dirk Nowitzki (or, conversely, a 2012 version of an old Chris Webber or jamal Mashburn or Antoine Walker)...which is neither an All-Star or a 3rd-team All-NBA.
 
417096_10151198882271137_1149387339_n.jpg
 
My thoughts on Aldridge tie in to the whose team is this thread, where I think going forward, personally, it's Lillard's team, and you do what you can to build around him, finding the right pieces to compliment him. Whether that is Aldridge, I don't know for sure, but the holes in his gam epeople want to point out, I feel ok with as our #2 option. I'd trade him to upgrade as a whole. I'd trade anyone. But I don't worry about trading him because he's not going to "lead us", because I think we already have someone who will. I know he CAN do more, but feel ok with an 18 and 8 PF if we have aa PG who can get us 19 and 6 as a rookie, a SG who can give us 17/2/2, and a SF who acn get us 18/6/3. I don't think you NEED Aldridge to give you 26/10.
 
it was All-NBA 3rd team, and he didn't get selected for it last year. Whether or not he deserved to isn't for this thread.

If LMA was playing at the level (or even at a lesser level, but the same way) he played at the last 2 years, I don't think you'd be seeing this argument. Instead, you're getting a homeless man's Dirk Nowitzki (or, conversely, a 2012 version of an old Chris Webber or jamal Mashburn or Antoine Walker)...which is neither an All-Star or a 3rd-team All-NBA.

The question is does that fall on LMA or does it fall on the coach? I think both is probably the best answer but for all Nate's faults he did get LMA to play inside last year even though LMA didn't care for it much.
 
If you think that measures of how "good" a big man (PF or C) is, then imo there are 4 parts. In rough terms, use PER for total offense, DRtg for Defense, eFG% for shooting proficiency and TRB for rebounding. Here are the forwards and centers that have higher rebounding percentages, higher eFG%, higher PERs AND lower Defensive Ratings. Assuming LMA qualified for this list (sorted by cumulative win shares), he'd be
tied for #32 with Brandon Wright.

Edit: If someone could show me how to clean up the formatting for these tables, I'd appreciate it.

Rk Player Season Age Tm FG% 3P% FT% TR% DRtg PER eFG%WS
1 Kevin Durant 2012-13 24 OKC .505 .441 .899 13.7 98 27.7 .553 3.6
2 Tim Duncan 2012-13 36 SAS .529 .667 .760 18.3 94 27.4 .534 2.6
3 Marc Gasol 2012-13 28 MEM .507 .000 .890 11.0 102 20.7 .507 2.5
4 Tyson Chandler 2012-13 30 NYK .718 .793 16.7 104 22.3 .718 2.4
5 Chris Bosh 2012-13 28 MIA .560 .167 .862 14.8 106 24.5 .566 2.3
6 Anders Varejao 2012-13 30 CLE .525 .000 .778 24.8 104 23.9 .525 2.2
7 Serge Ibaka 2012-13 23 OKC .595 .273 .881 14.2 101 20.6 .604 2.1
8 Joakim Noah 2012-13 27 CHI .479 .000 .778 14.6 97 18.8 .479 2.0
9 C Anthony 2012-13 28 NYK .469 .451 .798 11.5 106 24.1 .527 1.9
10 Kenneth Faried 2012-13 23 DEN .565 .576 19.9 103 21.0 .565 1.9
11 Dwight Howard 2012-13 27 LAL .595 .478 16.1 96 20.8 .595 1.9
12 Al Jefferson 2012-13 28 UTA .474 .250 .778 18.5 100 21.1 .476 1.8
13 Carl Landry 2012-13 29 GSW .579 .000 .776 14.9 105 21.4 .579 1.8
14 Zach Randolph 2012-13 31 MEM .497 .000 .742 21.4 99 19.9 .497 1.8
15 David Lee 2012-13 29 GSW .493 .000 .759 16.2 102 18.1 .493 1.6
16 Nicolas Batum 2012-13 24 POR .449 .377 .811 9.0 108 18.7 .546 1.5
17 Al Horford 2012-13 26 ATL .538 .513 14.9 99 19.0 .538 1.5
18 Brook Lopez 2012-13 24 BRK .534 .638 13.2 99 24.0 .534 1.5
19 Andrei Kirilenko 2012-13 31 MIN .508 .375 .714 12.1 100 18.4 .547 1.4
20 Paul Millsap 2012-13 27 UTA .458 .526 .726 15.6 103 18.5 .486 1.4
21 Tiago Splitter 2012-13 28 SAS .582 .741 13.6 101 20.8 .582 1.4
22 Greg Monroe 2012-13 22 DET .484 .709 16.2 100 19.9 .484 1.3
23 Kevin Garnett 2012-13 36 BOS .516 .000 .800 15.8 104 20.2 .516 1.2
24 DeAndre Jordan 2012-13 24 LAC .609 .467 16.2 100 18.6 .609 1.2
25 Paul Pierce 2012-13 35 BOS .421 .412 .835 10.1 105 19.1 .484 1.2
26 Blake Griffin 2012-13 23 LAC .495 .000 .610 15.8 100 18.1 .495 1.1
27 J.J. Hickson 2012-13 24 POR .532 .000 .591 22.5 107 18.9 .532 1.0
28 JaVale McGee 2012-13 25 DEN .541 .636 17.0 103 23.1 .541 1.0
29 Ed Davis 2012-13 23 TOR .578 .700 19.8 104 19.9 .578 0.9
30 A Drummond 2012-13 19 DET .558 1.00 .400 20.0 98 19.8 .565 0.9
31 Luis Scola 2012-13 32 PHO .476 .333 .838 14.8 107 18.1 .478 0.9
32 Brandan Wright 2012-13 25 DAL .647 .636 10.7 105 22.2 .647 0.8
33 DeMarre Carroll 2012-13 26 UTA .460 .200 .769 11.1 104 19.7 .480 0.7
34 Anthony Davis 2012-13 19 NOH .493 .000 .839 17.5 104 26.4 .493 0.7
35 Greg Smith 2012-13 22 HOU .576 .813 16.9 105 21.6 .576 0.7
36 Jermaine O'Neal 2012-13 34 PHO .525 .857 16.4 102 19.4 .525 0.6
37 Nene Hilario 2012-13 30 WAS .500 .789 10.0 102 23.4 .500 0.4
38 ChVillanueva 2012-13 28 DET .487 .455 .143 13.3 104 23.9 .615 0.3
39 John Henson 2012-13 22 MIL .489 .000 .455 17.1 103 18.2 .489 0.2
 
STOMP wrote: "...but you're up against the opinions of those who do this professionally."

This is another "argument" that I absolutely hate. It's up there with "PER" and "All-Star".

Do you REALLY think that these "professionals", who watch a fraction of Blazer games that Blazer FANS watch, know more than an intelligent Blazer fan? They may have more general basketball knowledge, but I sincerely doubt they are more knowledgeable about the BLAZERS. Until the Blazers are a Top 6 team in the league these pundits are watching fewer than 10 Blazer games per season - their opinions aren't worth crap to me. These are the guys that are still trumpeting Nate McMillan as a defensive coach, and the guys who are saying that LMA is one of the best jump shooting PFs in the league. That right there tells you that these guys DO NOT know much about the Blazers. They largely pick up their "knowledge" from the local beat writers...do you think that Quick and Canzano are brimming with basketball knowledge?

As for the coaches - they watch fewer games than the pundits. They get scouting videos (highlights) and look at stats and W/L record. They see the Blazers anywhere between 2 and 4 times a season. And let's face it - there are a lot of POOR coaches in the NBA. I mean, even our own Terry Stotts thinks that LMA is similar to Dirk! This should give you an idea of how well informed the coaches are when they're making their choices. And lastly, picking all-stars has got to be their lowest priority - they have their own teams to worry about, they aren't putting in time and research to see who really deserves to be named.
 
Conversely, when I did the same exercise with LMA's stats from last year (eFG%, TRB%, PER and DRtg), the list looked like this:

LBJ, Durant, Griffin, Bynum, Howard, LMA, Greg Monroe.
 
And from 2010-11, the list was like this:


LBJ, Durant, Gasol, Howard, LMA, Dirk, Z-Bo, Duncan, Griffin, Bynum.

To recap, he went from #5 of 10 in this category in 2010-11 (the All-NBA 3rd Team year) to #5 of 7 (All-Star year) in 2011-12, to #32 of 39 this year
 
STOMP wrote: "...but you're up against the opinions of those who do this professionally."

This is another "argument" that I absolutely hate. It's up there with "PER" and "All-Star".

Do you REALLY think that these "professionals", who watch a fraction of Blazer games that Blazer FANS watch, know more than an intelligent Blazer fan?

you are kidding only your self. First, obviously many intelligent Blazer fans disagree with you on Aldridge... you're out on a lonely limb claiming to be representing mainstream thinking here. And yeah... NBA coaches generally know a hell of a lot more about the league and it's players then us fans. You might absolutely hate this with all your heart, but that doesn't matter even a little.

obviously you're not going to be budged so I'm also going to have to Agree to completely Disagree

STOMP
 
If LMA was playing at the level (or even at a lesser level, but the same way) he played at the last 2 years, I don't think you'd be seeing this argument. Instead, you're getting a homeless man's Dirk Nowitzki (or, conversely, a 2012 version of an old Chris Webber or jamal Mashburn or Antoine Walker)...which is neither an All-Star or a 3rd-team All-NBA.

Despite the fact his offseason was used to rehab and his coach is using him on the outside more, Aldridge is only averaging 1.3ppg less and .6 rpg less than last year. He's also averaging .6 apg more and .4 bpg more than last year. Sure he's not playing as well, but I think the difference is getting blown out of proportion.

But let's say you're right and last year was completely different. You're wrong about not seeing this argument.

Let's move Aldridge

Trade LMA NOW!!! Sign Hickson to a MAX deal pronto!

Batum and Aldridge.....

Yet now people point to last year and say, well if he played like that I wouldn't have a problem... same shit, different year. Haters gotta hate.
 
It's a repeat of earlier posts, but from his words he's:

1) Lost a step
2) doesn't like going inside
3) in an offense where the vast majority of his shots are the least efficient shot in basketball

the stats show he's right. He's not going inside, he's shooting a similar % on his jumpers (i.e., the hip's not affecting him that much) but shooting WAY more of them and getting about 1/3 of the tips and dunks he usually gets. :dunno:
 
Despite the fact his offseason was used to rehab and his coach is using him on the outside more, Aldridge is only averaging 1.3ppg less and .6 rpg less than last year. He's also averaging .6 apg more and .4 bpg more than last year. Sure he's not playing as well, but I think the difference is getting blown out of proportion.

But let's say you're right and last year was completely different. You're wrong about not seeing this argument.

Let's move Aldridge

Trade LMA NOW!!! Sign Hickson to a MAX deal pronto!

Batum and Aldridge.....

Yet now people point to last year and say, well if he played like that I wouldn't have a problem... same shit, different year. Haters gotta hate.

Are you really using a) a spoof of a Kingspeed post, b) Mixum, and c) Shooter to build up the opposition point?
 
to your point, though...I'm definitely bringing up the 1.3 ppg less. For as inefficiently as he's shooting, I wish he'd take way fewer shots. When 5 of every 6 is a long-range 2pt jumper (the most inefficient in the sport) then that shows something. His usage rating is higher than ever, for someone who's PER is the worst since his rookie year.

I understand that he's coming off an injury. If so, he shouldn't be ridden into the ground shooting inefficient jumpers at a low percentage and at the highest usage rate of his career. Not if you want to win, anyway.
 
Are you really using a) a spoof of a Kingspeed post, b) Mixum, and c) Shooter to build up the opposition point?

If you actually read the threads, a lot of the same stuff was being said then... That's the only point I'm making.
 
Our points per game and possessions per game are way up this year. So if you normalize the two years to account for that then his points and rebounds are not just barely down.
 
to your point, though...I'm definitely bringing up the 1.3 ppg less. For as inefficiently as he's shooting, I wish he'd take way fewer shots. When 5 of every 6 is a long-range 2pt jumper (the most inefficient in the sport) then that shows something. His usage rating is higher than ever, for someone who's PER is the worst since his rookie year.

I understand that he's coming off an injury. If so, he shouldn't be ridden into the ground shooting inefficient jumpers at a low percentage and at the highest usage rate of his career. Not if you want to win, anyway.

It seems, though, that most of your issue comes with coaching, not with LMA. With his role and the way he performs it.
 
it was All-NBA 3rd team, and he didn't get selected for it last year.

you're right on the 2nd vs 3rd team, but I did correctly note that he received the honor the year prior

Whether or not he deserved to isn't for this thread.

good grief Brian. He was dominant and that honor was a reflection of that. Being an inconvenient fact for your argument, doesn't make it irrelevant

STOMP
 
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I understand that he's coming off an injury. If so, he shouldn't be ridden into the ground shooting inefficient jumpers at a low percentage and at the highest usage rate of his career. Not if you want to win, anyway.

I totally agree. The way the roster is constructed at present though I'm not entirely sure they want to win this year.
 

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