For the "haters"...what would it take?

[BrianFromWA]

It seems that this year there are only 4 (maybe 5, if you count Bayless, which I don't) candidates for the "bust/scapegoat/hatee/trade-this-guy-now" team: Oden, Blake, Outlaw and Webster. I think Blake and Outlaw are on the list additionally b/c of their contract situation, so it may be that you like their game but think they should go for team improvement reasons.

But what would it take for you to not have that thought about them?

Oden - I've always thought the bust label was way premature, and I'm in the Minstrel camp that thinks that he's still got a Duncan-type ceiling as a big-man fixture on multiple championship teams. If he is able to play starter-type (~32-35) minutes, I think his natural ability will come out. It's tougher to put a stat on it, since defensive stats are a bit tricky, but if he's contributing at all on D, while not turning the ball over much and shooting 70% FT, that'd be a great success for me.

Blake - Though it was only one FanFest and highlights of a preseason game, I like what I see of Blake trying to make the harder play. It's as if last year he knew that if he was steady and didn't turn the ball over, he wasn't going to be pushed at all by Sergio or Bayless-no matter how much he did or didn't look for the bigs. Now that's not the case, and you're seeing him attempt to play better. Though (at least in a couple of the FF fast breaks) he still looked really sketchy at running with the ball, I'm glad he's making the attempt--and his work ethic seems to be such that he'll probably get better quickly with more reps. If he's shooting around 40% from 3 and looking for the bigs/looking to run more, I'm ok with him getting 15 min or so, but I think he'll be more valuable to someone else than to us.

Outlaw - In FanFest he looked to be more aggressive on the boards, but it didn't look like it translated to last night. If he can at least remember that he has a defensive assignment (something that didn't happen often enough last year) that'll be a start. I'd like to see his PERagainst go down to something resembling backups playing 15mpg against him, while seeing his FTA go up. He's too quick for a lot of PFs, but his one-dribble-pull-up from 20 feet isn't the best use of a shot. The tough part for me is that I just don't think he understands the game. So while Oden just needs to stay healthy and/or get minutes, and Blake can use his work ethic to improve a skill...I'm not sure Travis is ever going to have the wherewithal to improve his understanding of the game and his role in it.

Webster - If he's shooting around 40% from 3 and drawing FTs at a higher clip, while not having a defensive dropoff from Batum, he's $$ in my eyes. I'm biased for Martell, while acknowledging that stats don't look good for him historically. However, if he starts playing Outlaw-esque defense while only chucking 3's at a 35% or so level, it'll be easy for me to turn on him and ask that Roy take the SF minutes. We're too deep to allow mediocre results from players for too long a time on the court.

Bayless? Enjoy the guaranteed salary and work to make your game better. Watch video of Chauncey Billups on offense and Gary Payton on D. Lock down our PGs in practice and make them take notice.

 

[MARIS61]

Oden -You're joking, right?
Blake - Unless Steve asks for a trade, he retires here.
Outlaw - Many posters don't know rare talent when they see it.
Webster - Never has seemed to fit this team at all, but the team has changed so maybe he does now.

The more obvious candidates would be everyone we got this summer, as none of them figure to be here more than a couple years anyway and don't figure into a Dynasty scenario.

 

[blazerboy30]

Oden -You're joking, right?
Blake - Unless Steve asks for a trade, he retires here.
Outlaw - Many posters don't know rare talent when they see it.
Webster - Never has seemed to fit this team at all, but the team has changed so maybe he does now.

The more obvious candidates would be everyone we got this summer, as none of them figure to be here more than a couple years anyway and don't figure into a Dynasty scenario.

I love it!!

"Laugh all you want but when I think of Pippen's early style of play and his awareness of the total game, only Viktor comes to mind.

This trade could end up a worse, but more predictable, one than Bowie/Jordan."

 

[Mediocre Man]

I love Oden. Anyone who thinks he is a bust is stupid. He might not live up to "once in a generation center", but he will most likely average in the range of 18/11/2 for his career. On a team with Roy and Aldridge, that is stellar.

I love Blake as well.......OFF THE BENCH. Blake has no business being a starting PG on a championship caliber team period.

I hate Outlaw, and always have. The guy is a dumb basketball player who doesn't help the team unless his shot is falling. He is a poor defender, a poor rebounder, a poor passer and a poor ball handler. Our offense stalls when he gets the ball because he refuses to get shots off within the offense......Probably because he has no idea what that means.

Webster is ok. I think he is more of a victim to the dumb people who think he has accomplished anything yet. He is a work in progress, but he busts his ass all over the floor, and does a lot more than just shoot. Batum has shown he should play in front, and more than Webster.

Bayless is going to be a very good player. I am not sure if it will be at the point or at the 2 guard, but trading him woul dbe a bad idea.

Nate draws my ire more than anyone else. Loosen the reigns, start the people that should be starting, don't overuse Blake and Outlaw, and I will be fine with him.

 

[MIXUM]

outlaw needs to go just like frye and sergio.

those 3 killed us last year

 

[barfo]

I think Roy is a possible scapegoat, if he stumbles. Big contract + very high expectations + poor play = scapegoat city.

barfo

 

[magnifier661]

Bayless? Enjoy the guaranteed salary and work to make your game better. Watch video of Chauncey Billups on offense and Gary Payton on D. Lock down our PGs in practice and make them take notice.

Honestly, this is the only player I don't see fitting with this ball club. Not because I don't think he's good. In fact, I think once he gets significant playing time, Bayless can be a very prolific scorer in this game. I just think we have our scorers.

BUT!!!!! If Bayless becomes a nice defender, he could very well be a great asset to this ball club. Blake, IMO is a back up and Miller may have around 4-5 more seasons left in him. So I expect we need a PG eventually.

So to sum it all up, I am very happy with all the players for the most part. I would love to see more rebounding effort in Outlaw and more driving to the basket from Webster.

 

[PapaG]

Great. A prep thread for the non-stop whining about "Player X" who needs to go now and can't play.

Glass half-empty...

 

[Minstrel]

Honestly, this is the only player I don't see fitting with this ball club. Not because I don't think he's good. In fact, I think once he gets significant playing time, Bayless can be a very prolific scorer in this game. I just think we have our scorers.

BUT!!!!! If Bayless becomes a nice defender, he could very well be a great asset to this ball club. Blake, IMO is a back up and Miller may have around 4-5 more seasons left in him. So I expect we need a PG eventually.

I'm still a believer that Bayless projects (if he pans out) to fit really well next to Roy. The guard alongside Roy doesn't need to be a traditional point guard, as Roy can take some of the play-making load. What the guard next to Roy needs to be able to do (ideally) is: defend the opposing point guard well since Roy can't/shouldn't do that, hit open mid-range and perimeter jumpers, get into the paint to draw fouls, score at the hoop or dish off to one of the big guys.

These are all things that Bayless has the tools to do really well. The problem is, since the team is contender mode, there's not a lot of chance for on-the-job training. He'll need to develop in spot minutes. Hopefully, he can.

 

[magnifier661]

I'm still a believer that Bayless projects (if he pans out) to fit really well next to Roy. The guard alongside Roy doesn't need to be a traditional point guard, as Roy can take some of the play-making load. What the guard next to Roy needs to be able to do (ideally) is: defend the opposing point guard well since Roy can't/shouldn't do that, hit open mid-range and perimeter jumpers, get into the paint to draw fouls, score at the hoop or dish off to one of the big guys.

These are all things that Bayless has the tools to do really well. The problem is, since the team is contender mode, there's not a lot of chance for on-the-job training. He'll need to develop in spot minutes. Hopefully, he can.

There is something in the back of my mind that leads me to believe Ferndandez may be that guard next to Roy. May not happen anytime soon, but I suspect it eventually coming.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I can see this happening:

The team stumbles out of the gate and people will blame Andre Miller right of the bat, unless he's producing crazy numbers (he won't be.)

 

[BenDavis503]

I like our entire team.

 

[Minstrel]

There is something in the back of my mind that leads me to believe Ferndandez may be that guard next to Roy. May not happen anytime soon, but I suspect it eventually coming.

If he could defend point guards, I'd see that as a potentially nice option. But he doesn't have the speed or quickness to defend most of the point guards in the league, IMO.

 

[magnifier661]

If he could defend point guards, I'd see that as a potentially nice option. But he doesn't have the speed or quickness to defend most of the point guards in the league, IMO.

I don't know... I remembered watching Ron Harper play point on a championship team.

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

I love Blake, Oden, and Webster. I hope we keep all 3 of them long term.
I love Travis as a person, but his lack of rebounding, inconsistent defense, and chuck it style of play is my only beef with him. If he crashed the boards more and played within the offense then I'd be all for keeping him also.

 

[ebott]

I can see this happening:

The team stumbles out of the gate and people will blame Andre Miller right of the bat, unless he's producing crazy numbers (he won't be.)

I concur. Especially if he and Roy can't work together. One of the big reasons Sergio was never going to work out here was that he needed the ball to be affective and that made him pretty much useless when playing with Brandon. Wouldn't be surprised one bit if the same thing happened with Roy and Miller.

Roy's the golden boy. If you can't work with him, you're not long for this team.

But I think the biggest argument this season will continue to be Outlaw vs Webster. Those two continue to be just not good enough year after year. Until one of them is traded that argument will continue to be the cause of more threads being started and causing threads to last a while. And that might not stop it. That's one argument that people are deeply rooted in. I'm a Martell honk and you'll never convince me that Outlaw is better. There are plenty of people that believe the opposite.

 

[andalusian]

outlaw needs to go just like frye and sergio.

those 3 killed us last year

Outlaw did not come close to killing us last year. We won 55% of the time he was on the court - which is better than Batum (50%) and the same win% as Rudy had. Actually, only Roy, LMA and Blake had a better win% for us last year.

What Outlaw is - is an instant offense pressure release valve kind of guy - when everything else fails - you just give him the ball and let him go get a shot. Not all of them are going to go in - but overall, the Blazers did very well with Outlaw in the line-up last year. It is amazing to see how many people do not realize what a great and rare skill that is at the NBA level, especially for a guy that does not cause problems in the locker room, does not tie your cap space and does not play prima-donna and give the coaches a headache.

I doubt Outlaw will really be a problem this year as well - but there are reasons to believe that Outlaw will be traded this year - and it's not Webster.

The reasons are:

1. With Miller in the fold - we have another guy that can create a shot for himself next to Roy - so we no longer have Roy and nothing but Outlaw
2. With Oden finding his offensive mojo, able to put the other teams in foul trouble and a guard that can deliver him the ball - we have another tool to relieve us of sticky situations - one that we did not have last year.
3. Batum's aggressive production on the offense will allow the team to play him longer minutes
...and...
4. Outlaw is an attractive trade asset - he is a proven scorer with that mentioned unique talent of creating a shot for himself and converting at a good rate - on a very short, very economical salary - could be just the kind of thing that can persuade a team to let go of a coveted asset the Blazers might be interested in.

Overall, however, with a team that has so much talent - the most likely hater target has to be the coach because he played player X instead of player Y...

 

[Nikolokolus]

I hate 'em all. I turned in my fan card the moment they traded Sergio away ...

 

[Natebishop3]

Oden - no complaints. Obviously if he turns out to be a Dale Davis and not a Shaq, everyone will wonder what could have been.... but I still love the guy.

Blake - love him as a backup, hate him as the starter.

Outlaw - Good kid, very clutch, great at creating his own shot..... terrible at everything else. Not a passer. Not a rebounder. Not a defender.

Webster - my expectations for him are low. He was out all of last season, he's signed to a very minimal contract, and he's still very young. If he produces, great, if not I'm not going to lose sleep. I still think many fans harp on Webster because we took him instead of Chris Paul or Deron Williams.

 

[Minstrel]

I don't know... I remembered watching Ron Harper play point on a championship team.

Ron Harper was a brilliant and underrated defender. He was able to defend all guards really well. A largely unsung but important part of the Bulls' second three-peat.

Fernandez is quite skilled offensively, but isn't anywhere near Harper's league defensively.

 

[Natebishop3]

Ron Harper was a brilliant and underrated defender. He was able to defend all guards really well. A largely unsung but important part of the Bulls' second three-peat.

Fernandez is quite skilled offensively, but isn't anywhere near Harper's league defensively.

Rudy = Steve Kerr or Tony Kukoc in that scenario.

 

[Minstrel]

Rudy = Steve Kerr or Tony Kukoc in that scenario.

Yeah, optimistically I'd say Kukoc. Blake is Kerr.

 

[oldmangrouch]

"Scapegoat" implies being singled out unfairly.

Last season, Oden had 3 problems: fouls, injuries, and stretches of play when he appeared to just be going through the motions. If he doesn't address those issues, he will be a big target - but it will be justified.

As for actual "scapegoats", I would say the leading candidates are Outlaw and Miller. Miller because he is the highly touted newcomer. Outlaw because....well, I have never been quite sure. He is not a great player - but he is also a bench player on a team friendly contract. Unlike certain other players (eg Webster, Miles) he isn't even a failed lotto pick. Bashing him because he isn't on par with Roy or LMA seems churlish at best....but that doesn't seem to stop people.

Blake? The only way I see him becoming a scapegoat, is if he turns into a poisonous personality in the locker-room....and I can't see that happening.

 

[magnifier661]

Outlaw because....well, I have never been quite sure. He is not a great player - but he is also a bench player on a team friendly contract. Unlike certain other players (eg Webster, Miles) he isn't even a failed lotto pick. Bashing him because he isn't on par with Roy or LMA seems churlish at best....but that doesn't seem to stop people

Wow i never really thought of it like that. You gotta good point there. I mean he has a very manageable contract, wasn't a high draft pick and well... Is a bench player. I guess you can't ask too much on that.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Actually, the best candidate for scapegoat is probably not a player at all. It is probably Nate.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

Actually, the best candidate for scapegoat is probably not a player at all. It is probably Nate.

Ding Ding!