Frank Thomas...The inconvenient truth

[totus44]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...rry-bonds-roger-clemens-hall-ped-users-get-in

 

[cagedlion]

Just because one is great, does that excuse an athlete because of his low moral standards to be
enshrined into the hallow hall of fame. Either one gets in because he is honest to himself and to the game
or he does not get in.............period.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

wonder what sources, events, proof, other than Canseco's word & book, Frank is talking about. His time in MLB, hearing rumors or a story from a friend of a friends friend???

He sounds sure of these allegations, so why not tell all. Why haven't and didn't players like Frank who feel the air needs cleared, speak up during the Mitchell investigation. That was their big chance; and all players should of spoke of what they knew, heard, and saw. That was the players chance and choice. They knew some would call it ratting, others would call it fair, just, with sand as the line of fairness, on a very windy day.

I'd think most players who had juicers around them; and played with or against, clearly knew who was and wasn't using PED's. But who's going to get undercover photos, taped convos, forensics, (used needles or bottles, and secondly why should one???) other than word of mouth. No pics, no wires.....no proof? but then that was what the investigation was for, to provide information by the players to the Mitchell rep's for follow ups on all leads....It wasn't the players responsibility to clean up PED use of others, but then isn't it all players duty to report clear violations of rules?

Over 50 yrs the mentality of such a age old habit of "getting the edge physically" has changed dramatically. From the days of Little League, players are taught to eat proper to "get the edge phsycially", by eating plenty of red beef, no milk or pancakes the day of a game, or practice.
To- eating a 2 lb bag of M&M's and/or a Bear squeeze bottle of Honey, for high energy bursts just prior and during games.
To- workouts regimens (from teens on) to establish insane stamina and strength, skills; from such comes performance enhancers, albeit those legal, and those not, (even tho' steroids were not illegal for a large part of the era spoken of, not illegal but unethical)....

In the 50s-60s amphetamine use was so common, it was rarely mentioned. In the 70s-80s Cocaine use became rampant, and was widely used in some clubs. Getting the edge and cheating are two different things, that seemed to obscure each others intent.

some band of brothers, who should of stuck together and spoke as one; when they should have, instead of bitching about it 10 years+ later....

but then the MLBPA would have none of that, so how much blame does the MLBPA get for not participating, or openly encouraging players to speak to the Mitchell Commission in cleaning up PED's, in lieu of pretending they were Witch Hunt Security, or OJ's lawyers....??

Piazza, Pudge, Bagwell, I know of no hard evidence against them, yet have heard one too many players mention their alleged use of PED's. Why can't this be solved once and for all??? Because their is no legit proof other than word of mouth, that was never processed properly and/or in a timely manner? Or was the Mitchell Commission truly a closed door agenda, a witch hunt for specific players, ie Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, McGwire, Sosa, ...?

 

[yankeesince59]

Just because one is great, does that excuse an athlete because of his low moral standards to be
enshrined into the hallow hall of fame. Either one gets in because he is honest to himself and to the game
or he does not get in.............period.

^^^This.

...and Frank Thomas is neither on the Veteran's Committee nor a member of the BBWAA. I don't think anyone with any amount of cognitive thinking would deny that Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro used steroids/PEDs.

...having said that, I don't understand the rationale of people who, on one hand say that McGwire, Sosa, and Palmeiro should not be in the HOF because they cheated, but then on the other hand, say that even though Bonds and Clemens also cheated but should still be in the HOF because they were great even before they decided to cheat.

...that's like saying that Bernie Madoff should not be in jail because before he decided to start stealing people's money he was once an honest investor/advisor.

...there's a difference in being in the MLB record books and being in the HOF. Bonds, Clemens, et al, have their stats and records and always will, but the HOF is a completely separate entity, as it should be. And to say that "everyone deserves a second chance" may be true, but that second chance should only come after they acknowledge that what they did was wrong and not before being disciplined/penalized for their transgressions/indiscretions...and that is where Bonds and Clemens now find themselves. They may be eventually enshrined but for now, the voters are rightfully showing their displeasure and IMO, all things considered, the system is working as it should.

 

[Yankeefan5545]

Just because one is great, does that excuse an athlete because of his low moral standards to be
enshrined into the hallow hall of fame. Either one gets in because he is honest to himself and to the game
or he does not get in.............period.

Bingo: as we used to say in the Military, one ah shit cancels all of the atta boys.

 

[totus44]

I'll take it farther. Players that didn't use, but knew of use and kept quiet were in fact complicit in the cheating themselves. Why? Follow the money. Huge stats brought fans, sponsors, commercials, etc. Also brought better CBA with owners, etc. No one rocked the boat because in effect their silence was bought and paid for.

As for Canseco, I have no doubt a tell all was his first idea, but making money off the knowledge of use was. It had nothing to do with love of the game, I'd bet his other 9 fingers on it.

 

[yankeesince59]

I'll take it farther. Players that didn't use, but knew of use and kept quiet were in fact complicit in the cheating themselves. Why? Follow the money. Huge stats brought fans, sponsors, commercials, etc. Also brought better CBA with owners, etc. No one rocked the boat because in effect their silence was bought and paid for.

...not rocking the boat had a lot more to do with not ratting out your teammates and/or fellow MLBPA union members.


As for Canseco, I have no doubt a tell all was his first idea, but making money off the knowledge of use was. It had nothing to do with love of the game, I'd bet his other 9 fingers on it.

...well, the general idea of writing a book is to make money...just saying.

 

[totus44]

You want to convince me that MLBPA members and their union was more concerned about "ratting" and not all the extra monitary gains being lost? ROTFLMAO!

 

[yankeesince59]

You want to convince me that MLBPA members and their union was more concerned about "ratting" and not all the extra monitary gains being lost? ROTFLMAO!

...uhhh, no...that's not what I said...read it again.

...what we're talking about is your contention that players who knew about others players using but did not rat them out should also be complicit...all I'm saying is that there were likely other factors other than money involved in their decision not to rat those other players out.

...but using your premise, Andy Pettitte should have immediately ratted out his teammate Roger Clemens when Clemens admitted to Andy that he had used PEDs, correct?


...^^^"ROTFLMAO!"...see, I can play this game too.

 

[totus44]

Yes. Andy should have stepped up and said something. Likely would have helped Roger and himself, and spared the franchise the blemish.

Common denominator was career enhancement and extension, which is as we know equal to guaranteed salary.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Bonds and Clemens also cheated but should still be in the HOF because they were great even before they decided to cheat.
...that's like saying that Bernie Madoff should not be in jail because before he decided to start stealing people's money he was once an honest investor/advisor.

..

^^^ great analogy...

 

[yankeesince59]

Yes. Andy should have stepped up and said something. Likely would have helped Roger and himself, and spared the franchise the blemish.

Common denominator was career enhancement and extension, which is as we know equal to guaranteed salary.

...how in hell would that have "helped Roger" and Andy?...Roger simply would have done the same thing that he already did by denying it and claiming that Andy simply "misremembered"...and then there would have been a split in their friendship and division within the team.

...can you imagine the fallout and carnage within every MLB clubhouse if players had starting finger pointing about PEDS without actual proof?...sorry Tote, but you're simply not thinking rationally about this. And if you'll be completely honest about it, you'd realize that what you are now claiming is to take action on PEDS users based merely on "suspicion" without any real proof, and is completely contrary to what you've been barking about concerning discipline for PEDs users.

...and if you remember, about a year ago you said money and greed were not the main motivators for players using PEDs...but now you point to money as the "common denominator"?...well, which is it?

 

[totus44]

yes I recall. my theory, counter to your money/greed theory was that users did it based on group think, other doing it, no one is complaining or stopping us angle. those were people's primary motivations/justifications. money was a benefit, never argued that. i could have agreed with you if you have excluded greed, because with maybe an exception or two of flawed characters like arod or bonds, most of the users were doing it because they felt they had no choice in order to compete. ballplayers are still going to be ballplayers, same as when they were kids in love with the game. would do anything to keep playing.

so fast forward to ped era and my point is that it would have taken strong people to stand up and collectively say, hey we need to clean up house this is getting out of control. if that had happened, it would have helps all those suspected because people (even folks like you) would have respected the players stepping up and doing the hard thing given all the money they potentially put at risk. my position is perfectly rationale and reasonable and consistent with whistleblower psychology.

Just like the players should have been courageous enough to consider another way, I'm asking you to consider that there are alternative interpretations to what you have settled upon in your mind.

 

[yankeesince59]

yes I recall. my theory, counter to your money/greed theory was that users did it based on group think, other doing it, no one is complaining or stopping us angle. those were people's primary motivations/justifications. money was a benefit, never argued that. i could have agreed with you if you have excluded greed, because with maybe an exception or two of flawed characters like arod or bonds, most of the users were doing it because they felt they had no choice in order to compete. ballplayers are still going to be ballplayers, same as when they were kids in love with the game. would do anything to keep playing.

...lmao...hey, you were the one who just referenced "Follow the money. Huge stats brought fans, sponsors, commercials, etc. Also brought better CBA with owners, etc. No one rocked the boat because in effect their silence was bought and paid for. " (your exact words)

...don't look now, and I'm confident that you'll somehow try to spin it differently Tote, but you just described "greed" to a tee.

[ greed |grēd| noun...intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth, power, or food.]

Just like the players should have been courageous enough to consider another way, I'm asking you to consider that there are alternative interpretations to what you have settled upon in your mind.

...hate to be the one to break it to you, but that's a two-way street. greed

 

[Mattingly23NY]

I couldn't help bring up this age old problem, that is still and will be a problem for years to come. With HOF voting every year this issue will continue to be an issue with no consensus how to deal with it.

I really didn't expect any player to 'rat' on his fellow players, but had to mention such, if those players felt cheated by others PED use, then perhaps they should of aired out their complaints first to the player(s), then what....?

Really, had any player of become a 'rat', he'd forever be ostracized, outside looking in, ntm- I couldn't imagine the lack of teamwork, on a club where each other is looking over their shoulders, as much wondering if you're going to be errantly fingered by a team mate, hell even a janitor or ball boy. Lack of trust with team mates is inevitable failure, for each player and the team as a whole.

Doing such would of been career suicide. Canseco had nothing to worry about, he had already become impertinent as a player, only good for being a 'snitch' or 'rat'.

Roids has become imo, a bigger problem than the 1919 Black Sox scandal. Not saying if a World Series game were thrown today it wouldn't be bigger than PED use; or Trump's head; it would be certain death to MLB....


Roids will take a good 50 yrs to try and resolve the many issues its brought forth. 50 may be conservative. Tho' Bonds claimed to begin using PED's in the latter 90's, is apparent some players had begun using PED's a decade prior, nothing on the scale of the 90's, though they were out there... guess the cocaine of the 80s was in more demand...

 

[totus44]

Let's not forget about nicotine. As a stimulant, but also blood pressure increase and agonizing receptors helps vision.

History of baseball was full of successive generations looking for an edge and advantage.

There will be ways after roids and HGH. Players will go there. And we can continue to debate why.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Let's not forget about nicotine. As a stimulant, but also blood pressure increase and agonizing receptors helps vision.

History of baseball was full of successive generations looking for an edge and advantage.

There will be ways after roids and HGH. Players will go there. And we can continue to debate why.

^^^^ thank god coffee is legal, .... yet a performance enhancer... so is Orange Juice, at least this body tells me so...

Maybe there will be a market after all, for that shit sludge crap, "5 hour energy drink", ....if its not outlawed first.

It's a wonder MLB doesn't check blood sugar levels for performance enhancement....lol.

 

[yankeesince59]

^^^^ thank god coffee is legal, .... yet a performance enhancer... so is Orange Juice, at least this body tells me so...

Maybe there will be a market after all, for that shit sludge crap, "5 hour energy drink", ....if its not outlawed first.

It's a wonder MLB doesn't check blood sugar levels for performance enhancement....lol.

...^^^ lol...thank you, Matts.

...huge difference in a substance that may help you to be able to take the field with other players vs a substance that gives you an unfair advantage over other players once you get there...apples and oranges.

...nicotine as a stimulant might also make a player more likely have to take a shit during the game but I don't see that as giving them any sort of edge over other players.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

...^^^ lol...thank you, Matts.

...huge difference in a substance that may help you to be able to take the field with other players vs a substance that gives you an unfair advantage over other players once you get there...apples and oranges.

...nicotine as a stimulant might also make a player more likely have to take a shit during the game but I don't see that as giving them any sort of edge over other players.

"a peach, a pear or a coconut please"....

A smoke would make me too jittery to field or hit, but for others-

a smoke could work both ways advantage wise. It could bring on an emergency shit, requiring a pincher, I mean pinch hitter, runner, or last second substitution, which could help or hinder either team?

On the other hand, if said smoking player gets that shit in (with the aide of a cup of coffee), on time without requiring replacement, he might just play a couple lbs lighter, which would give him a lighter than air advantage.

However if a Catcher had a smoke while on the bench (since jock straps hold no shit unless worn backwards), he could be one helluva distraction to every hitter, as well as cause the Ump to struggle. I could just see that, an Ump calling out a scrappy pig-pen type Catcher to go change his pants, or confront him, now that would be one helluva Ump-Mgr argument on camera, with Catcher in tow swearing he's being picked on cuz he didn't shit his pants, supposedly...

 

[Lillie]

"a peach, a pear or a coconut please"....

A smoke would make me too jittery to field or hit, but for others-

a smoke could work both ways advantage wise. It could bring on an emergency shit, requiring a pincher, I mean pinch hitter, runner, or last second substitution, which could help or hinder either team?

On the other hand, if said smoking player gets that shit in (with the aide of a cup of coffee), on time without requiring replacement, he might just play a couple lbs lighter, which would give him a lighter than air advantage.

However if a Catcher had a smoke while on the bench (since jock straps hold no shit unless worn backwards), he could be one helluva distraction to every hitter, as well as cause the Ump to struggle. I could just see that, an Ump calling out a scrappy pig-pen type Catcher to go change his pants, or confront him, now that would be one helluva Ump-Mgr argument on camera, with Catcher in tow swearing he's being picked on cuz he didn't shit his pants, supposedly...

What the Hell is wrong with you Rob???

 

[yankeesince59]

"a peach, a pear or a coconut please"....

A smoke would make me too jittery to field or hit, but for others-

a smoke could work both ways advantage wise. It could bring on an emergency shit, requiring a pincher, I mean pinch hitter, runner, or last second substitution, which could help or hinder either team?

On the other hand, if said smoking player gets that shit in (with the aide of a cup of coffee), on time without requiring replacement, he might just play a couple lbs lighter, which would give him a lighter than air advantage.

However if a Catcher had a smoke while on the bench (since jock straps hold no shit unless worn backwards), he could be one helluva distraction to every hitter, as well as cause the Ump to struggle. I could just see that, an Ump calling out a scrappy pig-pen type Catcher to go change his pants, or confront him, now that would be one helluva Ump-Mgr argument on camera, with Catcher in tow swearing he's being picked on cuz he didn't shit his pants, supposedly...

^^^lol...funny stuff.

 

[stampedehero]

MLBHOF is only one notch above the bogus RnR HOF.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

What the Hell is wrong with you Rob???

My Mom made me a poster child for abortion, the day I was born....

 

[Lillie]

My Mom made me a poster child for abortion, the day I was born....

I don't think that's the case at all. Canadians in general are crazy, trust me I have a couple of friends that live in Canada and they are just like you.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

I don't think that's the case at all. Canadians in general are crazy, trust me I have a couple of friends that live in Canada and they are just like you.

It could be drinking when we're infants, supposed to be on formula, and our Ma's think Milk is suds of Canadian Rocky Mt. Water aka Moosehead, Molsons, ...!

ah shit, and here I thought I was the only Canuck, at least here in the mojave.... anglican canadians don't count....!

 

[totus44]

Now wait, there are 3 flavors of Canucks: Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. The first are French-lite. The second are evil fucks. And the third are awesome.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Now wait, there are 3 flavors of Canucks: Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. The first are French-lite. The second are evil fucks. And the third are awesome.

odd how a Cajun will call a Canuck a cousin, but a Canuck will not call a Cajun a cousin.

Love the architecture ambience of old Montreal, Quebec City; but would much rather live in Vancouver if I had too live north of the border....The Ferry trips from Seattle, up through Bremerton, into Vancouver is as beautiful a trip as I've ever been on. Got to go aboard the U.S.S. Missouri when it was docked in Bremerton on public display, prior to recommissioning for the Gulf...

As good as Northwoods gets???