Notice From My Cold Dead Hands......

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Phatguysrule said:
We don't allow that. But what we have done has been as effective as countries who have instituted sweeping gun control, and in fact, far more effective than some.
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We do allow it in some states here. Not nearly effective enough. Look at all the mass shootings and bloodshed. There is no way to call that effective.
 
Phatguysrule said:
You are serious about pushing your agenda, which can't happen, and data shows doesn't actually address the problem.
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I think there might even be some disconnect as to what "the problem" is. Is it homicides (and suicides)? Gun violence? Mass shootings? Living in fear? Something else? Which of the many "problems" related to this issue is the primary one that legislation should be sought to solve?

I think a lot of the difficulty in this debate stems from people coming at different targets, in addition to coming at them from completely different angles.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
I think there might even be some disconnect as to what "the problem" is. Is it homicides (and suicides)? Gun violence? Mass shootings? Living in fear? Something else? Which of the many "problems" related to this issue is the primary one that legislation should be sought to solve?

I think a lot of the difficulty in this debate stems from people coming at different targets, in addition to coming at them from completely different angles.
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Spot on sir!
 
PtldPlatypus said:
I think there might even be some disconnect as to what "the problem" is. Is it homicides (and suicides)? Gun violence? Mass shootings? Living in fear? Something else? Which of the many "problems" related to this issue is the primary one that legislation should be sought to solve?

I think a lot of the difficulty in this debate stems from people coming at different targets, in addition to coming at them from completely different angles.
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I agree.

Violent crime and murder rates are the biggest problem. This is what impacts the vast majority of people and causes huge damage to our quality of life and economy.

I think suicides and mass murders are best addressed together, and that's with getting people help before they get to that point.

I have made proposals for how I believe these problems can best be addressed, and I would encourage more conversation on them.
 
Chris Craig said:
We do allow it in some states here. Not nearly effective enough. Look at all the mass shootings and bloodshed. There is no way to call that effective.
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Agreed. Nothing has actually been effective, except the improved social safety nets we've seen in Europe post WW2.

But if we're talking about improvement compared to other solutions, it has all been similarly ineffective.

But this is comparing before and after rates of the same place.
 
Phatguysrule said:
So you want to push your agenda which data shows doesn't work.

This is what I mean about not being serious about solving the problem (the problem I'm talking about is high rates of violent crime and murder).

You are serious about pushing your agenda, which can't happen, and data shows doesn't actually address the problem.

I'm sorry you're unwilling to engage in this important discussion, but it's tough, so I do understand your decision.
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I have no agenda. There is no data for what I want. Again you cannot compare any country in the world to the United States.
Not sure how many times I have to state that?
 
Phatguysrule said:
Agreed. Nothing has actually been effective, except the improved social safety nets we've seen in Europe post WW2.

But if we're talking about improvement compared to other solutions, it has all been similarly ineffective.

But this is comparing before and after rates of the same place.
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This is a big part of what the left wants...these improved social safety nets. A health care system that better serves everyone. But, the right doesn't want that. They equate socialism with communism.
 
Fairly-Hard said:
I have no agenda. There is no data for what I want. Again you cannot compare any country in the world to the United States.
Not sure how many times I have to state that?
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You stating that you want something just because you want it isn't very compelling.

Like you've said, probably just best for you to remove yourself from the conversation.
 
Chris Craig said:
This is a big part of what the left wants...these improved social safety nets. A health care system that better serves everyone. But, the right doesn't want that. They equate socialism with communism.
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Democrats and Republicans want to argue about those things to increase donations.

The left needs to apply more pressure on democrats to support policies which can actually help, and hold them accountable when they screw those policies up.

For example, Clackamas county received $44 million to address homelessness last year. They have less than 900 homeless.

That's over $70k per person. They spent like $4 million.

We could have easily housed every homeless person in the county for that price. Including rehab or whatever other services were needed.

Multnomah and Washington counties have similar levels of funding. The people have done their part in funding the solutions.

Now we need to hold our leaders accountable to follow through.

This is an example of progress on the kind of changes I've advocated for. These changes actually CAN happen. There is no law or amendment stopping them.

*Edit* And again, I'm not suggesting socialism. Simply improved social policies which are effective in many capitalist/market based economies in the world.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
You stating that you want something just because you want it isn't very compelling.
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Again that is not what i have done at all. I have way too much experience with this issue for you to belittle my position.

I simply will not be swayed by people trying to dilute the conversation and bring in stats and situations that simply do not apply.

If you want gun control then get it. If not don't sit there and site the reasons we cannot achieve it. Just say you prefer not to have gun control.
 
Fairly-Hard said:
Again that is not what i have done at all. I have way too much experience with this issue for you to belittle my position.

I simply will not be swayed by people trying to dilute the conversation and bring in stats and situations that simply do not apply.

If you want gun control then get it. If not don't sit there and site the reasons we cannot achieve it. Just say you prefer not have gun control.
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You are trying to muddy the water by ignoring the data because it doesn't support your position.

You are frustrated with me, because I'm not willing to ignore the data and real world experience we have with gun control.

I will not ever ignore the data. I will not ever support removing rights without overwhelming evidence that it is beneficial to to do so.

No such evidence exists for the proposals you have made, so I will continue to point that fact out and make proposals that are supported by real world examples and data. Because I am serious about solving the actual problems, not just pushing an agenda.

Im sorry if my relying on facts and data frustrates you, but it will not change.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Why does it have to be so binary?
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In my experience it’s pretty cut and dry. Others can talk about Data and look past what is actually happening all they wish.
Facts are facts. There is very little grey area.
Guns are for killing. We (people) kill with them. Always have and always will.
All the rest is just plain crosstalk.
 
Fairly-Hard said:
In my experience it’s pretty cut and dry. Others can talk about Data and look past what is actually happening all they wish.
Facts are facts. There is very little grey area.
Guns are for killing. We (people) kill with them. Always have and always will.
All the rest is just plain crosstalk.
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And the data shows us that removing the guns doesn't necessarily result in overall lower rates of killing or violence.

So the herculean effort it would take to remove guns and the political capital loss and general suffering that effort would cause are very likely pointless.
 
One thing that is surprising to me is that this thread is actually active right now. Usually it takes 20 dead children to get it going.
Of course then it's all the outrage and "Thoughts and Prayers".

My thoughts on this is the wrong people have been slaughtered. If the capitol riots had been armed to the teeth. When a group of people decide to make a run on the capitol again and if they happen to slaughter a few Senators you can believe me legislation will get passed with a fucking quickness.

It's pretty obvious at that point 36 states will all the sudden have Congressmen/women and Senators that will be all about changing some laws. The constituents be damned.

Some people want to quote "data". I say it's all just a matter of time. This country will eventually change.
 
Fairly-Hard said:
One thing that is surprising to me is that this thread is actually active right now. Usually it takes 20 dead children to get it going.
Of course then it's all the outrage and "Thoughts and Prayers".

My thoughts on this is the wrong people have been slaughtered. If the capitol riots had been armed to the teeth. When a group of people decide to make a run on the capitol again and if they happen to slaughter a few Senators you can believe me legislation will get passed with a fucking quickness.

It's pretty obvious at that point 36 states will all the sudden have Congressmen/women and Senators that will be all about changing some laws. The constituents be damned.

Some people want to quote "data". I say it's all just a matter of time. This country will eventually change.
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It almost sounded like you're suggesting killing senators to push your agenda?

You realize Canadians can drive across the border and buy guns in Montana. Right? Or Michigan..and they do...
 
Fairly-Hard said:
In my experience it’s pretty cut and dry. Others can talk about Data and look past what is actually happening all they wish.
Facts are facts. There is very little grey area.
Guns are for killing. We (people) kill with them. Always have and always will.
All the rest is just plain crosstalk.
Click to expand...
Kind of like when it snows that proves climate change is a Chinese hoax right?

Whatever you do, ignore the data...
 
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