Game Thread GAME# 16: BLAZERS @ WIZARDS - NOVEMBER 18, 2018 - SUNDAY, 3:00 PM , NBCSNW

[TorturedBlazerFan]

This is exactly why I think Porter would be a much better player here.

All I know is that when Wall was out they played cohesively and just about every one of them made some sort of remark on twitter or in an interview about the mood or passing or whatever being better. When an organization is that dysfunctional it's hard to tell if a player really is a problem or just a product of that system, especially since guys like Wall, Beal, and Porter have only played for them.

I think its a valid point.

 

[hoopsjock]

Fair enough. I've just never seen him really do it. I think there a lot of guys who could be good defenders if they wanted too... I'll assume you've watched more wizards games than I have, so if you think he could do what Aminu does (or close to it) on defense than I guess I don't really have much to say about it.

Another point I want to make in regards to Aminu versus Porter is that Aminu is an unrestricted free agent after this season so we don't even know if he'll be on the team after this season. We also don't know what it will cost to retain him.

 

[H.C.]

Another point I want to make in regards to Aminu versus Porter is that Aminu is an unrestricted free agent after this season so we don't even know if he'll be on the team after this season. We also don't know what it will cost to retain him.

My only concern with Porter is Collins.
How does the organization view Collins going forward?

Do they view him as a 6th man type of player?
Do they view him as Nurk insurance?(foul/injury trouble)
Do they view him as eventually starting next to Nurk at the 4?

If Portland were to trade for Porter he'd be the starting line up.
So one of Harkless or Collins is coming off the bench. Personally I don't want either of those players coming off the bench.

Pending what Portland were to give up, I'm keen to believe Collins would be coming off the bench instead of Harkless or Porter.
That could(not saying it will) slow Collin's development.

I have this concern about Aminu as well.
I was so very low on the Aminu signing when he signed with Portland.
However Aminu has shown to be one of the best FA signings. The guy just makes Portland better.
But if he returns next year, where does that put Collins?

I'm sure these questions will be answered by seasons end. I'm also sure that's what the organization is banking on too.

I'm not against Porter, in fact I actually like him as a player. I just don't want Collin's development to be hindered by a player they bring in who the organization feels they must start due to name.(Wallace vs Batum) Rather than by whom makes the team better.

 

[hoopsjock]

My only concern with Porter is Collins.
How does the organization view Collins going forward?

Do they view him as a 6th man type of player?
Do they view him as Nurk insurance?(foul/injury trouble)
Do they view him as eventually starting next to Nurk at the 4?

If Portland were to trade for Porter he'd be the starting line up.
So one of Harkless or Collins is coming off the bench. Personally I don't want either of those players coming off the bench.

Pending what Portland were to give up, I'm keen to believe Collins would be coming off the bench instead of Harkless or Porter.
That could(not saying it will) slow Collin's development.

I have this concern about Aminu as well.
I was so very low on the Aminu signing when he signed with Portland.
However Aminu has shown to be one of the best FA signings. The guy just makes Portland better.
But if he returns next year, where does that put Collins?

I'm sure these questions will be answered by seasons end. I'm also sure that's what the organization is banking on too.

I'm not against Porter, in fact I actually like him as a player. I just don't want Collin's development to be hindered by a player they bring in who the organization feels they must start due to name.(Wallace vs Batum) Rather than by whom makes the team better.

Good questions. I feel like we've been getting mixed signals as to what his actual position will end up being. Personally I would like him to eventually become the starting 4 next to Nurk and then obviously there would be times where he would slide over to the 5 as well. Last year every single move the Blazers made seemed to be to make Zach a 4. This last off season it seemed like every move they made was to ensure he'd be a 5. Now that the season has started it's kind of mixed because sometimes they play him with Meyers or Swanigan and sometimes he's the clear 5. I definitely don't think they view him simply as a 6th man or Nurk insurance, maybe this year but not in the future. I don't really feel the need to pigeon hole him into one of the other yet.

Porter is a 3/4. If Stotts was going to use him only in the Aminu 4 role then I get your line of thinking. There is no reason the Blazers couldn't eventually start Dame, CJ, Porter, Collins, and Nurk though. I really want to see Collins in the starting lineup or at least playing with the starters more often but I also think that playing on the 2nd unit gives him more opportunities to score and be the defensive anchor. On the other hand, Zach seems to play better when he isn't being relied on to score and just does so naturally within the offense which suggests he'd be better off starting, I don't know.

 

[BonesJones]

For 26 million, he's not going anywhere easy.

We complain about Meyers and Turner, but holy shit is he overpaid.

Ehhh, no he's not. When engaged, he's an elite 3-and-D Small Forward with the ability to do a little bit more off the dribble and in the post. I'm the two years prior, he had BPMs of 3.9 and 3.6 and a TS% of 62.8 and 60.2.

He's also never been challenged to do more and I believe he has the ability to be a more integral part of an offense than has been so far in his career. But if not, he's still a very, very good player.

If we could trade Meyers and Moe for him just to save Washington money, that'd be a steal.

 

[Scalma]

Ehhh, no he's not. When engaged, he's an elite 3-and-D Small Forward with the ability to do a little bit more off the dribble and in the post. I'm the two years prior, he had BPMs of 3.9 and 3.6 and a TS% of 62.8 and 60.2.

He's also never been challenged to do more and I believe he has the ability to be a more integral part of an offense than has been so far in his career. But if not, he's still a very, very good player.

If we could trade Meyers and Moe for him just to save Washington money, that'd be a steal.

Porter was overpaid the minute he signed his offer sheet. Max contract for a guy that has a career PER of 15.5? For reference that’s a league average starter making superstar money.

 

[BonesJones]

Porter was overpaid the minute he signed his offer sheet. Max contract for a guy that has a career PER of 15.5? For reference that’s a league average starter making superstar money.

How are you gonna use his career numbers when 3-4 of those years he was simply developing as a very young player? He steadily improved over that time, so judging his salary based on his entire career instead of his most recent seasons is flawed, IMO.

 

[Scalma]

How are you gonna use his career numbers when 3-4 of those years he was simply developing as a very young player? He steadily improved over that time, so judging his salary based on his entire career instead of his most recent seasons is flawed, IMO.

What else am I going to use? Besides, he came into the league after two years in college. He wasn’t that young.

His highest PER is still 18.3. That’s solid, but definitely not max worthy.

 

[CupWizier]

How are you gonna use his career numbers when 3-4 of those years he was simply developing as a very young player? He steadily improved over that time, so judging his salary based on his entire career instead of his most recent seasons is flawed, IMO.

In no way do his numbers say he is a 26mil a year player though. One thing to consider is that if we were to acquire him then his contract will be coming due the same time as Lillard, McCollum and Nurkic. To have to pay 4 guys making their kind of money could blast this team into luxury tax hell.

 

[BonesJones]

What else am I going to use? Besides, he came into the league after two years in college. He wasn’t that young.

His highest PER is still 18.3. That’s solid, but definitely not max worthy.

PER doesn't do a good job of representing defensive impact, and that's a big part of his game. His BPM the past two years have been higher than anyone on our team. Yeah, he should be payed around $15M-$18M a year, but his max contract is part of the reason why it'd be easier to get him and we'd have to give up less. Given our lack of flexibility the next two years, his $10M overpayment doesn't matter to me as I don't think it'd affect our ability to make moves until 2021. Even then, Porter would be expiring and the salary cap will be around $116M a year ($14M more than it is now), making it possible to trade him with an attached pick if we're looking to sign another star (given that the 2022 draft is likely to be a superdraft, that years pick would be extremelyl valuable when trying to dump a contract).

He'd make us noticeably better now, and with Durant and Cousins set to leave next year, I think we could compete for a Finals berth.

 

[BonesJones]

In no way do his numbers say he is a 26mil a year player though. One thing to consider is that if we were to acquire him then his contract will be coming due the same time as Lillard, McCollum and Nurkic. To have to pay 4 guys making their kind of money could blast this team into luxury tax hell.

Nurk's contract expires in 2022, Dame, CJ's and OPJ's expire in 2021.

He has a 3.9 and 3.6 BPM that past two years is in line with a lot of max guys. The idea is also to trade Harkless and Meyers for him, which would be an extra $5M over the next two years. That 3rd year would be primarily offset by Turner's contract expiring, and the cap will be $15M higher than it is now.

 

[oldmangrouch]

In the abstract, Porter would be a nice add. In reality, adding Porter would be the last time the team adds talent for the length of his contract. It is very possible that the team would actually shed talent as Porter's deal destroys any roster/payroll flexibility. Want to bring Curry or Stauskas back next year? Want to re-sign Aminu? Forget it.

I'm sorry - but this is silly. You only take that burden for a *great* player - a guy who will put the Blazers in the finals. Porter is not even close to being that guy.

 

[CupWizier]

Nurk's contract expires in 2022, Dame, CJ's and OPJ's expire in 2021.

He has a 3.9 and 3.6 BPM that past two years is in line with a lot of max guys. The idea is also to trade Harkless and Meyers for him, which would be an extra $5M over the next two years. That 3rd year would be primarily offset by Turner's contract expiring, and the cap will be $15M higher than it is now.

Washington will in no way take on that much money as they are already in luxury tax hell, especially when they are giving up the best player.

 

[BonesJones]

Washington will in no way take on that much money as they are already in luxury tax hell, especially when they are giving up the best player.

Which is why I proposed this in the trade idea thread:

SAC Gets: Harkless
POR Gets: Porter Jr.
WAS Gets: Leonard, Labissiere

 

[BonesJones]

In the abstract, Porter would be a nice add. In reality, adding Porter would be the last time the team adds talent for the length of his contract. It is very possible that the team would actually shed talent as Porter's deal destroys any roster/payroll flexibility. Want to bring Curry or Stauskas back next year? Want to re-sign Aminu? Forget it.

I'm sorry - but this is silly. You only take that burden for a *great* player - a guy who will put the Blazers in the finals. Porter is not even close to being that guy.

This post makes no sense to me. What talent are we gonna miss out on adding during Porters contract? The most we could hope for is to land someone of his caliber through free agency in 2020 (who wed likely have to overpay for and if not, get stuck with the same amount of talent for a slightly more than the salary cap but alightly less than if we had Porter (but thats in the rare scenario that we somehow sign someone of Porters caliber that fits as well as he does).

Who are we going to acquire that's more talented, a better fit, and has no character issues through trade without giving up multiple 1sts or core pieces? I dont think theres anyone like that.

So in terms of adding contract during the next 3 years, how are we going to add someone of Porters caliber otherwise?

Also, what talent are we gonna miss out on? Everyone except for Collins is worth less than $7M-$8M at most. They're also all easily replaceable. With the cap rising to $109M next year and $116M the year after, we'd be fine paying his contract and it wouldn't mean we'd have to shed talent. Even then, we'd be trading mediocre role players for a very good all-around SF. I'd take that in a heartbeat.

And if Collins ends up being worth $15M+, that means were contenders, and would be worth the tax payments (even in this worst case scenario, Dame and CJ at $30M, Porter at $28M, Collins at $20M, and Nurk at $12M would equal a $120M total. The luxury tax will be at $136M in 2020, so our payroll would be fine even if we had to pay Collins a near-max contract).

Bring back Curry or Stauskas? We'll have the $6M tax-payer MLE to bring them back either way, and adding $5M to our payroll wouldn't change that... And if we really want to bring back Aminu, a $5M bump wouldn't change that either. Even then, Porter operates very well as a small-ball 4 so he could make Aminu expendable just because he's talented and we have solid 2nd string wings.

His contract is a non-issue.

 

[kjironman1]

Ehhh, no he's not. When engaged, he's an elite 3-and-D Small Forward with the ability to do a little bit more off the dribble and in the post. I'm the two years prior, he had BPMs of 3.9 and 3.6 and a TS% of 62.8 and 60.2.

He's also never been challenged to do more and I believe he has the ability to be a more integral part of an offense than has been so far in his career. But if not, he's still a very, very good player.

If we could trade Meyers and Moe for him just to save Washington money, that'd be a steal.

Which is why i don't think it will happen.

 

[CupWizier]

Which is why I proposed this in the trade idea thread:

SAC Gets: Harkless
POR Gets: Porter Jr.
WAS Gets: Leonard, Labissiere

And why does Sac do that? You expect them to take on 7 mil more in salary to take on a player that has shown to be injury prone and may or may not even be as good as what they are giving up.

 

[kjironman1]

And why does Sac do that? You expect them to take on 7 mil more in salary to take on a player that has shown to be injury prone and may or may not even be as good as what they are giving up.

Exactly!

 

[hoopsjock]

Who are we going to acquire that's more talented, a better fit, and has no character issues through trade without giving up multiple 1sts or core pieces? I dont think theres anyone like that.

So in terms of adding contract during the next 3 years, how are we going to add someone of Porters caliber otherwise?

There are some ways to add a quality playe like that making a lot less but they'd have to get really lucky with a draft pick or trade for an under the radar guy on a rookie contract that ended up thriving here. Although if we didn't give up a pick for Porter those options could still be available.

 

[TBpup]

Porter is quick, super lengthy, and gets steals. There is no reason he couldn't in theory do everything that Aminu does defensively.

Yes but Aminu is the better dribbler so there is that...

 

[hoopsjock]

Yes but Aminu is the better dribbler so there is that...

I'm guessing you're joking, but Aminu is not a better dribbler.

 

[TBpup]

I'm guessing you're joking, but Aminu is not a better dribbler.

Go with your first instinct. I didn't think green font was necessary when referring to Aminu's dribbling prowess.

 

[BonesJones]

And why does Sac do that? You expect them to take on 7 mil more in salary to take on a player that has shown to be injury prone and may or may not even be as good as what they are giving up.

Salary wont matter to SAC, theyre under the cap amd cant attract free agents anyway. They're barely playing Skal and they're stacked at his position, and if Harkless passes a physical, he's a better player for them. They need help at SF and Harkless would be an immediate starter. They also don't have their pick and are off to a winning start through 17 games.

 

[BonesJones]

There are some ways to add a quality playe like that making a lot less but they'd have to get really lucky with a draft pick or trade for an under the radar guy on a rookie contract that ended up thriving here. Although if we didn't give up a pick for Porter those options could still be available.

And most or all of those options will be available whether we trade for OPJ or not. If you're talking about a late-1st-round gamble in a shallow draft verae a young, legitimate starter that fibres us exactly what we need, then give me Porter.

 

[CupWizier]

They're barely playing Skal and they're stacked at his position, and if Harkless passes a physical, he's a better asset foe them. They need help at SF and Harkless would be an immediate starter.

Doesn't mean they want to make a trade and absorb 7 mil in salary though. They can get better value, especially considering Harkless and his health issues, plus, like any GM will tell you 2 team trades are difficult and multi team trades magnify it even more so as so many issues can derail it.

 

[BonesJones]

Doesn't mean they want to make a trade and absorb 7 mil in salary though. They can get better value, especially considering Harkless and his health issues, plus, like any GM will tell you 2 team trades are difficult and multi team trades magnify it even more so as so many issues can derail it.

Because I edited this in: Salary wont matter to SAC, theyre under the cap amd cant attract free agents anyway. How can they get a better SF for a guy they're not playing at all?

Also, I said "if Harkless can pass a physical"...

Its as simple of a 3 team trade as you can get. Ask SAC if they want Moe instead of Skal. If so, use Skal and $13M+ savings as a powerful bargaining chip with Washington.

 

[James lamphear]

Good questions. I feel like we've been getting mixed signals as to what his actual position will end up being. Personally I would like him to eventually become the starting 4 next to Nurk and then obviously there would be times where he would slide over to the 5 as well. Last year every single move the Blazers made seemed to be to make Zach a 4. This last off season it seemed like every move they made was to ensure he'd be a 5. Now that the season has started it's kind of mixed because sometimes they play him with Meyers or Swanigan and sometimes he's the clear 5. I definitely don't think they view him simply as a 6th man or Nurk insurance, maybe this year but not in the future. I don't really feel the need to pigeon hole him into one of the other yet.

Porter is a 3/4. If Stotts was going to use him only in the Aminu 4 role then I get your line of thinking. There is no reason the Blazers couldn't eventually start Dame, CJ, Porter, Collins, and Nurk though. I really want to see Collins in the starting lineup or at least playing with the starters more often but I also think that playing on the 2nd unit gives him more opportunities to score and be the defensive anchor. On the other hand, Zach seems to play better when he isn't being relied on to score and just does so naturally within the offense which suggests he'd be better off starting, I don't know.

I think Aminu will be next year Davis for Olshey due to Collins to be pencil in has the starter.

 

[CupWizier]

Because I edited this in: Salary wont matter to SAC, theyre under the cap amd cant attract free agents anyway. How can they get a better SF for a guy they're not playing at all?

Also, I said "if Harkless can pass a physical"...

Its as simple of a 3 team trade as you can get. Ask SAC if they want Moe instead of Skal. If so, use Skal and $13M+ savings as a powerful bargaining chip with Washington.

Passing a physical doesn't change whether a player is injury prone and Skal is also 3 years younger and a lot less owed on his contract. It's pretty obvious what you are getting with Harkless, but there is still a lot of potential growth in Skal.We will just have to agree to disagree as I think Sac could do much better with Skal and cap space.

 

[Labinot41]

When Aminu starts to dribble, i allways hold my breath

 

[H.C.]

I need to post this.

Stotts adjusted very well after the L Washington gave the Blazers in Portland.
He clearly had the team ready for the switching defense Washington plays.
Saw that many times with Layman, Turner, Lillard, CJ cutting backdoor on the overplay or forcing their man on the high side for the easy lob over the top from Nurk.

Goodjob on the adjustment Stotts.... It only came a game late.
But hey at least you saw your mistake.