Game Thread GAME# 37: BLAZERS @ HEAT - JANUARY 5, 2020 - SUNDAY, 3:00 PM, NBCSNW

[TorturedBlazerFan]

See the coaches and players seemingly have adopted this same philosophy that they just suck so why even try?

You keep just dismissing the roster as bad but that doesn't dispute anything I've said about fixable problems. If Tolliver gets scored on because he's 5 inches shorter than the guy he's guarding and he just shoots over the top of him then fine, that's a roster issue. That's not what's happening though. There are multiple times a game players don't even know where to stand off ball or who they're even suppose to be guarding.

I'm aware the players aren't where their supposed to be, but considering for a lot of them Mario and Whiteside, and Tolliver, and Melo they've been bad everywhere else maybe it's them. Miami, Orlando, NY, Minne, Houston, OKC, don't seem to be missing any of those guys. Whiteside especially puts up these numbers and no they aren't hollow stats they mean something, but he's never been a high IQ defender that's good in space and anchors the defense like you'd expect from a shot blocker. Miami who has Spoelstra doesn't seem to miss him.

Sure fix the coaching, but the issues aren't all on Stotts, or even close at this point. Also some of the problems you keep pointing out are because of who's out there too. Tolliver has never been asked to play Center before, Dame and CJ have always had wings / bigs they could funnel offensive players too. Bazemore is always out of position cause he's a risk-taker, if you take that away from him he's not really a good one on one defender.

Especially in the paint where their getting wrecked, guys do go right at them, because out of whiteside they don't have a single defender in there who can do anything about it. Whiteside can't play 48 minutes a game...

 

[hoopsjock]

It could be that they have a bunch of low iq defenders. Pops has coached some of the best defenses in the history of the NBA, but they arent good this year, theres a chance that he didnt forget how to coach a defense and a drastic decrease in high IQ basketball players and talent has hurt them.

Saying the whole team is clueless, well ok Id agree and yeah some of thats coaching, but guess what Miami fans said that Whiteside was a clueless team defender last year, is Spoelstra a good or a bad coach?

Again, this isn't a record or results based argument I'm trying to make so bringing up another team's record isn't disproving anything.

Pop has 5 titles and has changed his offensive and defensive philosophies several times in his tenure in SA. By winning Game 7 in the 2nd round the Blazers are acting, playing, and coaching like they've accomplished something similar.

The grit and edge isn't there this year. Last year everyone was trying to prove that the Pelicans sweep wasn't who this team was. This year they don't have that.

You can keep blaming the IQ of the new guys but Dame and CJ are up there with the defensive lapses too.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Again, this isn't a record or results based argument I'm trying to make so bringing up another team's record isn't disproving anything.

Pop has 5 titles and has changed his offensive and defensive philosophies several times in his tenure in SA. By winning Game 7 in the 2nd round the Blazers are acting, playing, and coaching like they've accomplished something similar.

The grit and edge isn't there this year. Last year everyone was trying to prove that the Pelicans sweep wasn't who this team was. This year they don't have that.

You can keep blaming the IQ of the new guys but Dame and CJ are up there with the defensive lapses too.

Definitely but Dame and CJ have always had defensive lapses and been covered up by better players around them. Also, except Dame and CJ no one is even left from last year's team (that's playing anyways). It turns out the guys they brought in, or in Simons case they expected production from, just aren't good, and they can't overcome the scheme. I'm not absolving Stotts, but I am saying that you put a bunch of bad defenders (do they have even one good team defender left...?) and coaching isn't going to magically make up for the fact they can't stop anyone. Coaching may be able to mask some of the deficiencies a little bit, but they just don't have guys, guys are playing roles they weren't mean to play.

Dame and CJ have gotten better (especially Dame - the last few years), but no one is saying they are high IQ defenders...

 

[hoopsjock]

I'm aware the players aren't where their supposed to be, but considering for a lot of them Mario and Whiteside, and Tolliver, and Melo they've been bad everywhere else maybe it's them. Miami, Orlando, NY, Minne, Houston, OKC, don't seem to be missing any of those guys. Whiteside especially puts up these numbers and no they aren't hollow stats they mean something, but he's never been a high IQ defender that's good in space and anchors the defense like you'd expect from a shot blocker. Miami who has Spoelstra doesn't seem to miss him.

Sure fix the coaching, but the issues aren't all on Stotts, or even close at this point. Also some of the problems you keep pointing out are because of who's out there too. Tolliver has never been asked to play Center before, Dame and CJ have always had wings / bigs they could funnel offensive players too. Bazemore is always out of position cause he's a risk-taker, if you take that away from him he's not really a good one on one defender.

Especially in the paint where their getting wrecked, guys do go right at them, because out of whiteside they don't have a single defender in there who can do anything about it. Whiteside can't play 48 minutes a game...

Let me try explaining this a different way. I have believed for years now that Stotts' systems on both ends of the court is predictable and lacks the ability to adjust to what the other team is doing against it.

Having better players and more talent does indeed make the results better or at least seem better. In my opinion, we are seeing how bad the coaching staff is because of the injuries there aren't good enough players to mask or compensate for that lack of talent. With how this season has gone it's more important to have good coaching.

And I don't believe the same things you do that a team with one of the best back courts in the NBA can't still beat teams of similar or lesser talent levels.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Let me try explaining this a different way. I have believed for years now that Stotts' systems on both ends of the court is predictable and lacks the ability to adjust to what the other team is doing against it.

Having better players and more talent does indeed make the results better or at least seem better. In my opinion, we are seeing how bad the coaching staff is because of the injuries there aren't good enough players to mask or compensate for that lack of talent. With how this season has gone it's more important to have good coaching.

And I don't believe the same things you do that a team with one of the best back courts in the NBA can't still beat teams of similar or lesser talent levels.

I think the coaching's bland at best and has a weak defensive scheme too. So sure new coaching is fine.
The Blazers backcourt is what top 3-4 in the NBA, unfortunately, the rest of the roster right now is like bottom 10... Maybe with health, it'll be better, but saying oh they "should" beat teams of lesser talent levels, there aren't many teams out there with lesser talent levels. Even if they have the best player in Dame the other team usually has 7 or so of the best 10 players on the court. Also like you mentioned part of the problem is defensively the Blazers backcourt isn't doing anything special.

edit:

I think the end is what we disagree on, you seem to think the backcourt and surrounding talent is better than I do and the coaching is putting them in a bad situation.
I think the back court is good (but flawed defensively), and the surrounding talent is just bad. Overall talent with guys available I'd have them like bottom 7-8 in the NBA, and not that far above most of the teams below them. Yes, Dame is great but the next closest on the team is just good... and then after WS and CJ there's a huge dive between them and everyone else available too.

 

[tester551]

Definitely but Dame and CJ have always had defensive lapses and been covered up by better players around them. Also, except Dame and CJ no one is even left from last year's team (that's playing anyways). It turns out the guys they brought in, or in Simons case they expected production from, just aren't good, and they can't overcome the scheme. I'm not absolving Stotts, but I am saying that you put a bunch of bad defenders (do they have even one good team defender left...?) and coaching isn't going to magically make up for the fact they can't stop anyone. Coaching may be able to mask some of the deficiencies a little bit, but they just don't have guys, guys are playing roles they weren't mean to play.

Dame and CJ have gotten better (especially Dame - the last few years), but no one is saying they are high IQ defenders...

I agree with you here. Stotts isn't a great coach, but this isn't his fault.

The roster construction was a massive mis-calculation by NO. I understand that there were some massive financial constraints (caused by his own prior decisions), but at the end of the day the talent level on this team just isn't there.

 

[Strenuus]

Love that Meyers is still off the team. One of the greatest days in the history of the blazers!

 

[James lamphear]

I've always wondered why Olshey never wanted to give Stotts a Greg Anthony type backup that he could deploy on nights like tonight when Dame/CJ were getting torched.

I believe that Olshey looks at the offense end for guards not how they play defense. Due to the offense is really stucture around guard play. But this year supposed he brought in shooters like Baze Toliver. He probably thought Mario could fit in for Turner and Whiteside for Nurk. The problem only Whiteside has actually pan out. The others are hit or miss each game they play. Baze to not the defender as Harkless and Toliver majority hasn't been able produce not much. Mario seems like he doesn't what step on any toes but lately he been aggressive on offense but let's see if that continues.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Let me try explaining this a different way. I have believed for years now that Stotts' systems on both ends of the court is predictable and lacks the ability to adjust to what the other team is doing against it.

Having better players and more talent does indeed make the results better or at least seem better. In my opinion, we are seeing how bad the coaching staff is because of the injuries there aren't good enough players to mask or compensate for that lack of talent. With how this season has gone it's more important to have good coaching.

And I don't believe the same things you do that a team with one of the best back courts in the NBA can't still beat teams of similar or lesser talent levels.

I think the coaching's bland at best and has a weak defensive scheme too. So sure new coaching is fine.
The Blazers backcourt is what top 3-4 in the NBA, unfortunately, the rest of the roster right now is like bottom 10... Maybe with health, it'll be better, but saying oh they "should" beat teams of lesser talent levels, there aren't many teams out there with lesser talent levels. Even if they have the best player in Dame the other team usually has 7 or so of the best 10 players on the court. Also like you mentioned part of the problem is defensively the Blazers backcourt isn't doing anything special.

edit:

I think the end is what we disagree on, you seem to think the backcourt and surrounding talent is better than I do and the coaching is putting them in a bad situation.
I think the back court is good (but flawed defensively), and the surrounding talent is just bad. Overall talent with guys available I'd have them like bottom 7-8 in the NBA, and not that far above most of the teams below them. Yes, Dame is great but the next closest on the team is just good... and then after WS and CJ there's a huge dive between them and everyone else available too.

With good talent and a good scheme, the scheme can be known and predictable, but the talent can execute to a level that supersedes the defense's foreknowledge.

With bad talent, even if the scheme is solid, the execution won't be sufficient to overcome the predictability.

When the talent is reduced, it's incumbent on the coaching to introduce an element of variability to at least try to overcome the talent/execution deficit.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

With good talent and a good scheme, the scheme can be known and predictable, but the talent can execute to a level that supersedes the defense's foreknowledge.

With bad talent, even if the scheme is solid, the execution won't be sufficient to overcome the predictability.

When the talent is reduced, it's incumbent on the coaching to introduce an element of variability to at least try to overcome the talent/execution deficit.

Of course, it is, but it's still the NBA if your team just doesn't have talent, you're not going to win a lot of games.

 

[Wade Garrett]

The Blazers "patchwork" starting lineup includes 2 hall of famers...a top defensive rim protector, and, statistically the best mid range jumpshooter in the league....
And yet....they suck.
Go figure.
No, really...try to figure this out...because I've stopped..

 

[hoopsjock]

With good talent and a good scheme, the scheme can be known and predictable, but the talent can execute to a level that supersedes the defense's foreknowledge.

With bad talent, even if the scheme is solid, the execution won't be sufficient to overcome the predictability.

When the talent is reduced, it's incumbent on the coaching to introduce an element of variability to at least try to overcome the talent/execution deficit.

Yeah, I agree with this, well worded.

After the 1st preseason game this season @BonesJones mentioned that the 2nd unit would have to get out and run to be effective because no one in that unit was particularly good in our half court offense. Since the bench has struggled mightily this season why not at least try to push the pace? We here it from the team every media day that they're going to try and run more often and it never really happens consistently.

When a team is horrible defensively, why not double team and trap more or just pressure the ball harder or further down the court? Even if it only works occasionally at least every once in awhile you'd generate a turnover that could possibly lead to easy points on the other end. When it doesn't work it can't really be worse than what we're seeing now.

I totally get @TorturedBlazerFan's stance as a fan, even though I don't agree with it. From my perspective it looks like the team is being coached with that mindset too and that is why I get so upset. It's like "what can I do about this when my team is injured and not very talented." When things like having ONE practice focusing on defense and one time where Stotts made them watch an entire quarter of film after a loss seem like a big story it leads me to wonder if this team isn't being prepared correctly. Even Rondo said it during the Pelicans series that Dame and CJ obviously don't watch much film.

 

[Terry Stotts]

The Blazers "patchwork" starting lineup includes 2 hall of famers...a top defensive rim protector, and, statistically the best mid range jumpshooter in the league....
And yet....they suck.
Go figure.
No, really...try to figure this out...because I've stopped..

I'm trying Jennifer.

 

[Cugel]

and here I was saying that okc should fire their coach...they are kicking ass. no all stars at the moment on that team but CP is killing it.

 

[CupWizier]

I'm trying Jennifer.

trying what? impersonating a Blazer coach? Good luck with that as I haven't seen a single poster bite.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Yeah, I agree with this, well worded.

After the 1st preseason game this season @BonesJones mentioned that the 2nd unit would have to get out and run to be effective because no one in that unit was particularly good in our half court offense. Since the bench has struggled mightily this season why not at least try to push the pace? We here it from the team every media day that they're going to try and run more often and it never really happens consistently.

When a team is horrible defensively, why not double team and trap more or just pressure the ball harder or further down the court? Even if it only works occasionally at least every once in awhile you'd generate a turnover that could possibly lead to easy points on the other end. When it doesn't work it can't really be worse than what we're seeing now.

I totally get @TorturedBlazerFan's stance as a fan, even though I don't agree with it. From my perspective it looks like the team is being coached with that mindset too and that is why I get so upset. It's like "what can I do about this when my team is injured and not very talented." When things like having ONE practice focusing on defense and one time where Stotts made them watch an entire quarter of film after a loss seem like a big story it leads me to wonder if this team isn't being prepared correctly. Even Rondo said it during the Pelicans series that Dame and CJ obviously don't watch much film.

I'm just at peace with it. They aren't having a good year, there's a lot of things that go into it. I turn the game on watch for a couple of hours sigh and move on. I stopped expecting wins, expecting them to do different things, I just kind of got to the point where it's like sure I understand the complaints about the coaching, but I just don't think they're that good. If I thought they were greatly underperforming I'd be much more upset I just don't think that.

 

[hoopsjock]

and here I was saying that okc should fire their coach...they are kicking ass. no all stars at the moment on that team but CP is killing it.

Donovan is a very average coach. Having CP3 (as much as I don't like typing this) is basically like having a coach on the floor. He doesn't need good coaching at this point in his career to be successful on the court.

 

[kjironman1]

I'm just at peace with it. They aren't having a good year, there's a lot of things that go into it. I turn the game on watch for a couple of hours sigh and move on. I stopped expecting wins, expecting them to do different things, I just kind of got to the point where it's like sure I understand the complaints about the coaching, but I just don't think they're that good. If I thought they were greatly underperforming I'd be much more upset I just don't think that.

Pretty much my take exactly.

 

[kjironman1]

Donovan is a very average coach. Having CP3 (as much as I don't like typing this) is basically like having a coach on the floor. He doesn't need good coaching at this point in his career to be successful on the court.

But Dame does.....I see.

 

[hoopsjock]

But Dame does.....I see.

Nah, Dame's been carrying his coach for 7+ seasons now. Stotts literally wouldn't still be the coach if it wasn't for Dame wanting him to be.

 

[kjironman1]

Nah, Dame's been carrying his coach for 7+ seasons now. Stotts literally wouldn't still be the coach if it wasn't for Dame wanting him to be.

But does he need a good coach at this point of his career? Apparently Chris Paul does not.
I'm not really arguing about it at all. I actually agree. Just seems like you are giving the coaches a little too much credit, or no credit in this case?
Chris Paul is very talented and yes he runs the team on the floor well. I also believe Dame can. But i have not seen it so much lately. He seems like he is pressing and his decision making has not been up to par. That absolutely could be because Stotts has no idea what he is trying to do with this group of players? But it also could be because the Players are not a good mix at all?
I just don't know at this point? The team should be better. Yes the injuries have taken their toll. But this team should probably be playing better ball?

 

[hoopsjock]

But does he need a good coach at this point of his career? Apparently Chris Paul does not.
I'm not really arguing about it at all. I actually agree. Just seems like you are giving the coaches a little too much credit, or no credit in this case?
Chris Paul is very talented and yes he runs the team on the floor well. I also believe Dame can. But i have not seen it so much lately. He seems like he is pressing and his decision making has not been up to par. That absolutely could be because Stotts has no idea what he is trying to do with this group of players? But it also could be because the Players are not a good mix at all?
I just don't know at this point? The team should be better. Yes the injuries have taken their toll. But this team should probably be playing better ball?

Like @PtldPlatypus explained better than I could, good players can be successful with bad coaching because they're talented enough to overcome it. However, when you play a team that has more talent or is better coached than you either have to have your players play exceptionally well or you're going to lose (see WCF, Pelicans series, almost anytime we play a good team this year). Dame's one of the best players in the league but he can't overcome bad coaching, injuries, and roster issues all at the same time. Short of a trade, right now the only real thing that can change is the coaching and I just don't see it being good enough this year to compensate for the other things. In the NBA Dame has only ever known Stotts way of coaching so maybe he doesn't question him.

Whereas in CP3's case they haven't really had to deal with major injuries and he's got some decent players around him like Gallo and Adams who also know how to play the game and then add in the promising skills of SGA and they are playing great right now. Who know's if it's sustainable for them? They're definitely the best of the "worst" in the West right now which in this particular year means the 7th seed is theirs for the taking.

 

[kjironman1]

Short of a trade, right now the only real thing that can change is the coaching and I just don't see it being good enough this year to compensate for the other things

You have a point there.

In the NBA Dame has only ever known Stotts way of coaching so maybe he doesn't question him.

This also has crossed my mind. Dame looks stagnant and kind of out of sorts? He almost looks to be searching for something that he can't quite reach?
I think it might be good for a coaching change. But Dame will not disrespect the coach. Sometimes a decision being made for you is the best way to make the decision.
I'm very much the same way. I will not bash the coach or the players. They are all trying and it shows in the frustration. Of course i like Stotts. He is a very upstanding man and coach. But his time may have come? One last push and maybe some changes through trades by the deadline and see what happens?

 

[hoopsjock]

You have a point there.

This also has crossed my mind. Dame looks stagnant and kind of out of sorts? He almost looks to be searching for something that he can't quite reach?
I think it might be good for a coaching change. But Dame will not disrespect the coach. Sometimes a decision being made for you is the best way to make the decision.
I'm very much the same way. I will not bash the coach or the players. They are all trying and it shows in the frustration. Of course i like Stotts. He is a very upstanding man and coach. But his time may have come? One last push and maybe some changes through trades by the deadline and see what happens?

I just don't think Stotts will get fired this season. Everyone involved has the injury excuse. He'll get at least a pass until this point next year. I would love to see Dame and CJ play for a different coach before casting CJ off but who knows.

 

[H.C.]

If CJ is traded, Stotts and NO won't be part of the Blazer organization anymore.
As long as NO and Stotts are here. Portland's back court won't be broken up.
So all those that wish CJ to be traded for a Klondike bar. Are dreaming.

Also there is a high chance that if CJ is traded, Stotts and NO fired.
That Lillard would also be traded.
No logic in holding into a 30+ year old guard when you do a full rebuild.
Nurk is young enough to be on the bubble and given his injury history theres a chance Portland would ask more than he's worth. I'd still say there is a 50/50 chance that Nurk would be traded also.

But I'm sure winning 5 games a year with Simons and Trent starting will make game threads and this forum sooooooo much more enjoyable.

 

[H.C.]

I think they’ll be fine with some roster moves and maybe coaching, and health. Its just that they need all 3 of those things to get back to the wcf.

Im not upset or emotional at all about where the Blazers are at right now. Just saying what my opinion is.

The general consensus on this forum going into the 19-20 season is that Portland would be better offensively. But worse defensively.
Most believed they wouldn't have growing pains because of Lillard. Few believed those people were silly. Not because they didn't believe in Lillard.
But because when you replace 7 rotational players. It's crazy to think they'll be as good at game 1, as they would be game 82.
Portland's depth has gone to shit. The plan has been unraveled by several things.
Be it poor free agent signings or hyping a 20 year old to be better than your franchise player or injuries.
The depth became so much of an issue that Portland brought in a player who couldn't get a job in the league. The player accepted that he wouldn't be returning to basketball.
This player has had good games and bad games.
One thing is for certain though people wanted to see the young players play let them play through the mistakes. These people also wanted to win games. Melo has helped Portland win more games than Little would have.

NBA players generally do better when they know when they're going to come in, and when they're going to come out.
They generally do better when they know exactly what is expected of them. Helps build cohesion.
This entire year Portland hasn't been able to do that. CJ even made a joke a couple weeks ago talking about how they hadn't had anyone go down for a couple games. Then they lost Skal. Was great. CJ worse than jinxspeed.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

The general consensus on this forum going into the 19-20 season is that Portland would be better offensively. But worse defensively.
Most believed they wouldn't have growing pains because of Lillard. Few believed those people were silly. Not because they didn't believe in Lillard.
But because when you replace 7 rotational players. It's crazy to think they'll be as good at game 1, as they would be game 82.
Portland's depth has gone to shit. The plan has been unraveled by several things.
Be it poor free agent signings or hyping a 20 year old to be better than your franchise player or injuries.
The depth became so much of an issue that Portland brought in a player who couldn't get a job in the league. The player accepted that he wouldn't be returning to basketball.
This player has had good games and bad games.
One thing is for certain though people wanted to see the young players play let them play through the mistakes. These people also wanted to win games. Melo has helped Portland win more games than Little would have.

NBA players generally do better when they know when they're going to come in, and when they're going to come out.
They generally do better when they know exactly what is expected of them. Helps build cohesion.
This entire year Portland hasn't been able to do that. CJ even made a joke a couple weeks ago talking about how they hadn't had anyone go down for a couple games. Then they lost Skal. Was great. CJ worse than jinxspeed.

I agree a lot of things went wrong this year. I am in general ok with it, it happens in sports.

 

[Blazers Roy]

But does he need a good coach at this point of his career? Apparently Chris Paul does not.
I'm not really arguing about it at all. I actually agree. Just seems like you are giving the coaches a little too much credit, or no credit in this case?
Chris Paul is very talented and yes he runs the team on the floor well. I also believe Dame can. But i have not seen it so much lately. He seems like he is pressing and his decision making has not been up to par. That absolutely could be because Stotts has no idea what he is trying to do with this group of players? But it also could be because the Players are not a good mix at all?
I just don't know at this point? The team should be better. Yes the injuries have taken their toll. But this team should probably be playing better ball?

Let me help you there:

Dame is like Stephon Marbury (with better shooting).
Chris Paul is like Jason Kidd (with better shooting)

 

[Hobbesarable]

I agree a lot of things went wrong this year. I am in general ok with it, it happens in sports.

I am merely observing the situation as it unfolds without expectations.

 

[Wade Garrett]

I'm just at peace with it. They aren't having a good year, there's a lot of things that go into it. I turn the game on watch for a couple of hours sigh and move on. I stopped expecting wins, expecting them to do different things, I just kind of got to the point where it's like sure I understand the complaints about the coaching, but I just don't think they're that good. If I thought they were greatly underperforming I'd be much more upset I just don't think that.

Agree.
But, I honestly believe with just one move, this roster should be in a position to make a deep playoff run, next year.