Game three Summer league game thread

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Boob-No-More said:
Guys drop for all kinds of reasons, especially 4-year players. The draft is all about potential. Guys with 4-years of college are seen with having less upside than the latest 19-year old wunderkind. It's why Draymond Green was a second rounder and Wesley Matthews went undrafted.

BNM
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Ya, it's weird. I get it, I suppose, but I don't really agree with it
 
Mediocre Man said:
Claver shot .362 from 3pt. and .533 from the field in Euro league

So again, saying Layman has something Claver doesn't in shooting is complete nonsense.
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Before or after he played for the Blazers? What was the sample size? I was referring to the 7 seasons HD played for Valencia before joining the Blazers. He showed no consistent improvement in his 3-point shooting or FT shooting during those 7 years.

BNM
 
I like Layman intangible on the court and Claver didn't get a chance in Portland. But due to players in front of him I don't see much playing time. But if Portland don't sign Harkless that could change.
 
Natebishop3 said:
They never will, because each GM is hoping to roll the dice and draft a super star. They aren't hoping to draft a role player.
Click to expand...

Yep and this is why solid players keep dropping to the end of the 1st round, and are available when SA picks. They just keep grabbing these good role players they can develop. You don't have to be in the lottery to find good players.

I understand the philosophy of tanking to get super stars, but I still think you only want to be in the lottery 1 or 2 years in a row. Anymore and it takes a toll on the franchise. and the players want out. If you hit a bad spell, fine......draft wisely and make moves to get better as soon as you can. THEN be smart and continue to find good players late in the draft. There always seems to be a few that teams over look.
 
Natebishop3 said:
They never will, because each GM is hoping to roll the dice and draft a super star. They aren't hoping to draft a role player.
Click to expand...

When was the last time a future superstar was taken in the second half of the second round? Perhaps once they get that far down the list, they should shift their focus to finding productive role players. Every team needs them, and the odds are much greater of finding one that late in the draft than finding a superstar. Neil seems to get this. I'm fine with him looking for productive role players with his 2nd round picks while other less savvy GMs swing for the fences and miss.

BNM
 
Steph Curry shot 32.5% from the field in summer league in 2009 (I don't know three point percentage because they didn't track it.)

Klay Thompson shot 52% from the field and 71.4% from three in 2012 summer league.

Dame shot 43.8% from the field and 38% from three in 2012.

Redick didn't play in summer league.

I tried to look up Claver but I couldn't find him on any of the summer league stat sheets. Didn't he play in summer league?
 
Boob-No-More said:
Before or after he played for the Blazers? What was the sample size? I was referring to the 7 seasons HD played for Valencia before joining the Blazers. He showed no consistent improvement in his 3-point shooting or FT shooting during those 7 years.

BNM
Click to expand...
Before Portland in Euro league he was .286, .362, .386, .324, .394, .349

Before Portland for Valencia he was .286, .377, .405, .320, .404, .364

Never shot it a ton, but over 100 times in three of those seasons.

As for FT shooting, taking out his first year, where he took 14 and made 6, he started at .617 and ended at .780. Seems like consistent improvement, unless I am not understanding. that seems to happen a lot to me, apparently.

In Portland he started at .467 and ended at .909, but that is a really small sample size
 
Natebishop3 said:
Steph Curry shot 32.5% from the field in summer league in 2009 (I don't know three point percentage because they didn't track it.)

Klay Thompson shot 52% from the field and 71.4% from three in 2012 summer league.

Dame shot 43.8% from the field and 38% from three in 2012.

Redick didn't play in summer league.

I tried to look up Claver but I couldn't find him on any of the summer league stat sheets. Didn't he play in summer league?
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I couldn't find him either. I thought he did, but maybe he was playing Euroleague or something?
 
Okay I found the info on RealGM.

He played in one summer league. 2013

Game 1 (starter) - 5:29 minutes played, 0-1 shooting, zero points, 1 rebound, 2 fouls http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2013-07-13/Phoenix-at-Portland/127974

Game 2 DNP (injured I'm guessing) http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2013-07-14/LA-Lakers-at-Portland/127981

Game 3 (starter) - 38:09 minutes played, 3-8 shooting, 1-6 from three, 10 points, 11 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 6 fouls http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2013-07-16/Chicago-at-Portland/127993

Game 4 (starter) - 29:50 minutes played, 2-12 shooting, 1-6 from three, 7 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assists, and 3 steals http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2013-07-17/Portland-at-Atlanta/128086

Game 5 (starter) - 21:47 minutes played, 1-3 shooting, 0-0 from three, 4 points, 4 rebounds, 5 fouls http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2013-07-18/Portland-at-Phoenix/128088

Game 6 DNP - http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2013-07-19/Portland-at-Minnesota/128102
 
Natebishop3 said:
Okay I found the info on RealGM.

He played in one summer league. 2013

Game 1 (starter) - 5:29 minutes played, 0-1 shooting, zero points, 1 rebound, 2 fouls http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2013-07-13/Phoenix-at-Portland/127974

Game 2 DNP (injured I'm guessing) http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2013-07-14/LA-Lakers-at-Portland/127981

Game 3 (starter) - 38:09 minutes played, 3-8 shooting, 1-6 from three, 10 points, 11 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 6 fouls http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2013-07-16/Chicago-at-Portland/127993

Game 4 (starter) - 29:50 minutes played, 2-12 shooting, 1-6 from three, 7 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assists, and 3 steals http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2013-07-17/Portland-at-Atlanta/128086

Game 5 (starter) - 21:47 minutes played, 1-3 shooting, 0-0 from three, 4 points, 4 rebounds, 5 fouls http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2013-07-18/Portland-at-Phoenix/128088

Game 6 DNP - http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2013-07-19/Portland-at-Minnesota/128102
Click to expand...

This was Claver in a nutshell. Couldn't shoot to save his life, not even in summer league as a 24-year old with 7 years playing professionally in Europe and one year in the NBA under his belt.

BNM
 
Mediocre Man said:
Before Portland in Euro league he was .286, .362, .386, .324, .394, .349

Before Portland for Valencia he was .286, .377, .405, .320, .404, .364

Never shot it a ton, but over 100 times in three of those seasons.

As for FT shooting, taking out his first year, where he took 14 and made 6, he started at .617 and ended at .780. Seems like consistent improvement, unless I am not understanding. that seems to happen a lot to me, apparently.

In Portland he started at .467 and ended at .909, but that is a really small sample size
Click to expand...

No, you clearly aren't understanding consistent improvement. Claver was up and down, never consistently up.

Here are five examples of CONSISTENT improvement:

Jake Layman:
2012-13 - FG% = .396
2013-14 - FG% = .401
2014-15 - FG% = .470
2015-16 - FG% = .500

Jake Layman:
2012-13 - 3FG% = .299
2013-14 - 3FG% = .365
2014-15 - 3FG% = .378
2015-16 - 3FG% = .396

Jake Layman:
2012-13 - FT% = .694
2013-14 - FT% = .719
2014-15 - FT% = .752
2015-16 - FT% = .832

Jake Layman:
2012-13 - TS% = .510
2013-14 - TS% = .529
2014-15 - TS% = .589
2015-16 - TS% = .640

Jake Layman:
2012-13 - FG% = .489
2013-14 - FG% = .498
2014-15 - FG% = .544
2015-16 - FG% = .602

Notice how, in all cases, his shooting percentages are consistently improving from year to year.

The numbers you sited for Claver are the exact opposite of consistently improving:

.286, .377, .405, .320, .404, .364

He's down then he's up, oh but wait, he's down again, oh goody he's up again, oh crap, he's down yet again.

If you still don't understand the concept of consistent improvement, try importing the data into an Excel spreadsheet and graphing it. In Layman's case, all the graphs will show a line moving up and to the right. In Claver's case, the graph will look like a toddler trying to write the letter M for the first time.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
This was Claver in a nutshell. Couldn't shoot to save his life, not even in summer league as a 24-year old with 7 years playing professionally in Europe and one year in the NBA under his belt.

BNM
Click to expand...

It's really too bad because he could do a lot of other things.... defend, rebound, pass...... but he couldn't shoot.
 
Boob-No-More said:
No, you clearly aren't understanding consistent improvement. Claver was up and down, never consistently up.

Here are five examples of CONSISTENT improvement:

Jake Layman:
2012-13 - FG% = .396
2013-14 - FG% = .401
2014-15 - FG% = .470
2015-16 - FG% = .500

Jake Layman:
2012-13 - 3FG% = .299
2013-14 - 3FG% = .365
2014-15 - 3FG% = .378
2015-16 - 3FG% = .396

Jake Layman:
2012-13 - FT% = .694
2013-14 - FT% = .719
2014-15 - FT% = .752
2015-16 - FT% = .832

Jake Layman:
2012-13 - TS% = .510
2013-14 - TS% = .529
2014-15 - TS% = .589
2015-16 - TS% = .640

Jake Layman:
2012-13 - FG% = .489
2013-14 - FG% = .498
2014-15 - FG% = .544
2015-16 - FG% = .602

Notice how, in all cases, his shooting percentages are consistently improving from year to year.

The numbers you sited for Claver are the exact opposite of consistently improving:

.286, .377, .405, .320, .404, .364

He's down then he's up, oh but wait, he's down again, oh goody he's up again, oh crap, he's down yet again.

If you still don't understand the concept of consistent improvement, try importing the data into an Excel spreadsheet and graphing it. In Layman's case, all the graphs will show a line moving up and to the right. In Claver's case, the graph will look like a toddler trying to write the letter M for the first time.

BNM
Click to expand...
You're right, he is nothing like Claver because he's shot 2 non layup or 3pt shots and made them in summer league. Because they aren't EXACTLY the same, he doesn't remind me of him. Because Claver improved from start to finish, but not the exact same way Layman did, they aren't similar.

You said he could do what Claver couldn't, shoot. He hasn't so far
 
Mediocre Man said:
You're right, he is nothing like Claver because he's shot 2 non layup or 3pt shots and made them in summer league. Because they aren't EXACTLY the same, he doesn't remind me of him. Because Claver improved from start to finish, but not the exact same way Layman did, they aren't similar.

You said he could do what Claver couldn't, shoot. He hasn't so far
Click to expand...

Look at their respective bodies of work at similar ages and tell me Layman hasn't proven he's a better shooter that has shown consistent improvement. You're ignoring the data and just being your usual stubborn, combative self.

One area where they are nothing alike. Layman will be on an NBA roster this year, Claver won't. He had three years on an NBA roster to prove he belonged in the league and failed for the simple reason he couldn't shoot.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
Look at their respective bodies of work at similar ages and tell me Layman hasn't proven he's a better shooter that has shown consistent improvement. You're ignoring the data and just being your usual stubborn, combative self.

One area where they are nothing alike. Layman will be on an NBA roster this year, Claver won't. He had three years on an NBA roster to prove he belonged in the league and failed for the simple reason he couldn't shoot.

BNM
Click to expand...
And you are being your usual combative self

Layman hasn't shown the ability, in any sort of NBA environment, that he is a consistent shooter Claver wasn't

And in three years, we may be saying the same about Layman. I'm not saying he won't be better. I'm saying in three summer league games because of his poor 3pt shooting and all of his good intangibles, he reminds me of Claver. Why you want to argue that with shit from college and euroleague is beyond me
 
Mediocre Man said:
And you are being your usual combative self

Layman hasn't shown the ability, in any sort of NBA environment, that he is a consistent shooter Claver wasn't

And in three years, we may be saying the same about Layman. I'm not saying he won't be better. I'm saying in three summer league games because of his poor 3pt shooting and all of his good intangibles, he reminds me of Claver. Why you want to argue that with shit from college and euroleague is beyond me
Click to expand...

I don't take much from someone's first summer league. It's their first exposure to NBA basketball (of sorts.)

I look at a dude like Vonleh or Connaughton, who have a full year on a roster under their belt, and I want to see some growth in summer league. I want to see them show some confidence. I want to see some maturity. I'm just not seeing that from Connaughton for the most part. He had a decent run in the last game. But for a dude who is playing in his first SL, I think Layman is showing some very encouraging qualities. Something to be optimistic about.
 
Mediocre Man said:
And you are being your usual combative self

Layman hasn't shown the ability, in any sort of NBA environment, that he is a consistent shooter Claver wasn't

And in three years, we may be saying the same about Layman. I'm not saying he won't be better. I'm saying in three summer league games because of his poor 3pt shooting and all of his good intangibles, he reminds me of Claver. Why you want to argue that with shit from college and euroleague is beyond me
Click to expand...

Well, you got me there. How can I possibly continue in the face of the overwhelming evidence you've presented in support of your case? I surrender. You win the internet. Yay you! You da man.

You're 100% correct. Layman's consistent record of improving his shooting every year over a four year college career is completely meaningless and irrelevant. I don't even know why he bothered to play in college, let alone work on improving his shooting. What was the point? It means nothing to you, so it was obviously a huge waste of his time and energy.

And why the fuck did Neil draft him? He IS Victor Claver. Why settle for some cheap, American imitation, when we could have had the real deal? Neil is such a dumb ass. We should have just kept Claver. How many white guys that can't shoot does one team need anyway?

BNM
 
Natebishop3 said:
I don't take much from someone's first summer league. It's their first exposure to NBA basketball (of sorts.)

I look at a dude like Vonleh or Connaughton, who have a full year on a roster under their belt, and I want to see some growth in summer league. I want to see them show some confidence. I want to see some maturity. I'm just not seeing that from Connaughton for the most part. He had a decent run in the last game. But for a dude who is playing in his first SL, I think Layman is showing some very encouraging qualities. Something to be optimistic about.
Click to expand...
I COMPLETELY agree. I was judging him on his summer league so far. In that summer league so far, his game has reminded me a lot of Claver's. Always in the right spot doing the right thing, but his shot hasn't been falling. I'm just not sure why BNM would want to argue that?
 
Boob-No-More said:
Well, you got me there. How can I possibly continue in the face of the overwhelming evidence you've presented in support of your case? I surrender. You win the internet. Yay you! You da man.

You're 100% correct. Layman's consistent record of improving his shooting every year over a four year college career is completely meaningless and irrelevant. I don't even know why he bothered to play in college, let alone work on improving his shooting. What was the point? It means nothing to you, so it was obviously a huge waste of his time and energy.

And why the fuck did Neil draft him? He IS Victor Claver. Why settle for some cheap, American imitation, when we could have had the real deal? Neil is such a dumb ass. We should have just kept Claver. How many white guys that can't shoot does one team need anyway?

BNM
Click to expand...
I just don't get why you don't see that after 3 summer league games he reminds of Claver? I'm not here saying he'll get better or get worse. After 3 games, his game is similar to what we say in Claver. Smart, always in the right place, making the right play, but not a great shooter other than at the basket.
 
Mediocre Man said:
I just don't get why you don't see that after 3 summer league games he reminds of Claver? I'm not here saying he'll get better or get worse. After 3 games, his game is similar to what we say in Claver. Smart, always in the right place, making the right play, but not a great shooter other than at the basket.
Click to expand...

He reminds me a bit of a poor mans Chandler Parsons. Or could become that in a few years. I think he has much better ball handling skills than Claver had, and seems to have a much smoother stride when sprinting. I never thought of Claver to be a successful player on a run and gun team, but Layman seems like he will fit in just fine in something like that. Layman seems much more fluid with his body compared to Claver. Claver seemed awkward to me alot of the time.
 
Mediocre Man said:
I just don't get why you don't see that after 3 summer league games he reminds of Claver? I'm not here saying he'll get better or get worse. After 3 games, his game is similar to what we say in Claver. Smart, always in the right place, making the right play, but not a great shooter other than at the basket.
Click to expand...

My standpoint is, who cares? We all throw out comparisons. I thought he reminded me of Gordon Haywood and someone bitch slapped that opinion. It doesn't HAVE to be based on facts at all. It's one person saying that a player reminds them of another player. That is TOTALLY justifiable. You can think whatever you want MM. If you think he reminds you of Claver, you do you. He doesn't really remind me of Claver because I think Layman seems more athletic, but that's just my opinion.

Now if you had come out and said, "He IS Claver. That's his ceiling." Then I guess it would be something to argue about.
 
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