Gender issue revisited - Buck Angel

[blazerboy30]

hahahaha

yes.

That was easy.

You're absolutely wrong, and not even close. Not even close.

One of the dumbest posts on this thread.

 

[Denny Crane]

You're absolutely wrong, and not even close. Not even close.

One of the dumbest posts on this thread.

I thought yours was.

Go figure.

 

[blazerboy30]

I thought yours was.

Go figure.

Clearly what you thought isn't going to be even close to correct.

Just like your thought of:

The rule is you call the person what they look like. Dresses like a woman, she is a woman.

 

[Denny Crane]

Clearly what you thought isn't going to be even close to correct.

Just like your thought of:

Clearly your post contains a lot of knowledge or something.

That is the rule.

 

[MarAzul]

Why do so many of you care if someone, an adult, wants to be called a "she", while outwardly appearing to be the opposite gender?

Who cares if you think she should be called a "he".

It's not up to you.

To me, it's the same as someone who is gay. I don't know why this has any impact on your life, or why you should have an opinion on whether or not they are called something other than than what they prefer to be called.

If you want to be called Lord Fluffy pants, that's fine by me (but that's not the same thing, but if you've reached the point where you have to make that silly of a point, the argument is already lost)

You can be called Lord Fluffy pants all you want, I don't want to think about it.
However, if some dude wants to dress up like a woman and expects to use the female facilities right along with the ladies and girls, I think that is a pervert and it should be explained to him in clear and forceful language that it is unacceptable.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Denny, I did not realize I was gay when I looked at Playboy. Actually the posed, hypersexualized, fake model type leaves me cold. I "reazlied" I was gay when I finally learned that there was a word for what I'd always felt. That's true for most of us.

Blazing Giants, I believe you (unlike some others) have good will so I will try once more. Do I say that only some views are right? Frankly, yes. Everyone may have the "right" to an opinion but some are based on facts and some are not. I'm sorry, but on this issue you are wrong. It's not a matter of "lying". There are people who genuinely believe the moon landings were faked. They might ask if they are supposed to lie and say the moon landings happened when they are convinced the landings did not happen. The problem is that their opinion is not based on reality. The moon landings happened. They are simply wrong.

I don't believe you are this kind of nut case; I deliberately brought up an absurdity to make the point. Being transgender is not a fad or an idea or a preference or a mood. It is a reality for transpeople. I am glad you would not threaten or actually carry out rape or murder of a transperson, unlike the hundreds who threatened this woman because she wanted to be called her correct gender.

Where is the evidence that it is not just an idea, preference, or mood? It is a reality for transpeople in the same way God is a reality for religious people. Neither is a reality for me.

 

[crandc]

You can be called Lord Fluffy pants all you want, I don't want to think about it.
However, if some dude wants to dress up like a woman and expects to use the female facilities right along with the ladies and girls, I think that is a pervert and it should be explained to him in clear and forceful language that it is unacceptable.

Ah yes, the wisdom of MarAzul!

'You are old, Father William', the young man said,
'And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head --
Do you think, at your age, it is right?'

'In my youth', Father William replied to his son,
'I feared it might injure the brain;
But, now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again.'

 

[MarAzul]

Ah yes, the wisdom of MarAzul!

Why would you have a contrary opinion? Do you have any daughters? How about grand daughters?
No you say, but you do have pervert friends, hey! Well perhaps you should do the explaining and not leave it too me or my agents.

 

[julius]

Why do people care about how the words in our language are defined and what they mean? Yeah, that's a really great question. [/green font]

It's called communication. Society can't exist without it.

So, the continuation of society depends on whether or not you call someone a she vs a he?

 

[oldguy]

Since there are those here that want to think there is only one 'right' way, and I don't feel like anyone explained my questions in my last post, I'm going to try again.

Mom and Dad have a child with a penis. At 4 years old, child says they feel like they are a girl trapped in a boy's body. They also say that they want to be referred to as she. Mom says 'Ok, I'll buy you some girl's clothes and I'll refer to you as a girl." Dad says he doesn't believe his child is old enough to know they are a girl trapped in a boy's body, but he will refer to them as she when they are together. Further, he will insist that others refer to the child as she when the child is present. However, when they are not together, he still refers to his child as 'he'.

Now, two years pass, and the child comes to his parents and says, "I was wrong. I've met a girl I like, and I now understand that my feelings are different, and I now understand that I am a boy. Please stop referring to me as 'she.'

My question:

Was Dad wrong to have continued to call his child a 'he' that entire time?

Go Blazers

 

[crandc]

oldguy, maybe she met a girl she liked because she's a transgender lesbian.

I don't know where you got your hypothetical scenario but it shows you know nothing about transpeople. Did you decide you wanted to be male? Was it somethig you could just change your mind about? Why do you think transpeople decide on a whim and can just change their minds? Are you unaware that many, perhaps most, transpeople spend YEARS trying without result to change, or are sometimes forced by ignorant parents or otheres to try and change and cannot do so any more than you can?

 

[oldguy]

oldguy, maybe she met a girl she liked because she's a transgender lesbian.

Yeah, I get that that is another possibility. But, it's not the situation I presented. You are the one that says we can ONLY think one way. So, can we just address the situations I'm presenting, instead of making up something completely different?

I don't know where you got your hypothetical scenario but it shows you know nothing about transpeople. Did you decide you wanted to be male? Was it somethig you could just change your mind about? Why do you think transpeople decide on a whim and can just change their minds?

Because they are confused about their gender because their plumbing doesn't line up with their chromosomes? Because being confused would seem to present the possibility that they are sometimes wrong the first time that they self identify, especially for a child?

Are you unaware that many, perhaps most, transpeople spend YEARS trying without result to change, or are sometimes forced by ignorant parents or otheres to try and change and cannot do so any more than you can?

Are you saying the TG people never, ever change their minds, even if they are very young when they first decide with which gender they identify? They later discover they were wrong 0% percent of the time? I doubt that. And, if they are not correct with their first self identification 100% of the time, then you should not be talking in absolutes about how people should refer to them.

Let me try another scenario for you and Denny's absolute positions. What if a sick Mom raises a male child (XY w/penis) as female, forcing them to dress like a girl, and behave like a girl. The child is virtually coerced into asking to be referred to as a girl. Dad does that in the presence of the child (because he's a shitty Dad, but it makes Mom happy), but still refers to 'him' when the child isn't present.

Is it impossible that the child would identify male later in life? If the child did self identify as male later, would Dad have been wrong to have continued to call the child 'him' for all those years in between?

I offer this hypothetical to show that everyone that had referred to this child as 'she' (even though the child was not TG) based on how the child presented, was wrong, and the Dad was right.

The rule is you call the person what they look like. Dresses like a woman, she is a woman.

Go Blazers

 

[blazerboy30]

So, the continuation of society depends on whether or not you call someone a she vs a he?

Why don't you provide our society with a list of words that should be defined and a list of words that shouldn't. I'm sure language and communication will hold up well.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Some you guys need to take a gender studies class or two, because these questions are fairly complex and need more informed answers than any of us can give.

Unless the questions are rhetorical and you don't care what the answer is.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Here's what I really don't get: How can gender both be a fluid societal construct, yet simultaneously be a fixed aspect of someone's personage from birth? Aren't those two concepts contradictory?

 

[julius]

Why don't you provide our society with a list of words that should be defined and a list of words that shouldn't. I'm sure language and communication will hold up well.

I didnt make a stink about how to refer to.someone else. Why dont you provide examples thst are causing the end of.civilization?

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Here's what I really don't get: How can gender both be a fluid societal construct, yet simultaneously be a fixed aspect of someone's personage from birth? Aren't those two concepts contradictory?

You say gender is a "fluid" concept because you're used to thinking of gender as binary; in fact, it is a spectrum. You fall somewhere along the spectrum.

 

[blazerboy30]

I didnt make a stink about how to refer to.someone else. Why dont you provide examples thst are causing the end of.civilization?

You either agree that our language and words have meaning and definitions or not. If people assign any meaning they want to a word, there is no point in language and communication breaks down. Do you honestly disagree with that?

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

You either agree that our language and words have meaning and definitions or not. If people assign any meaning they want to a word, there is no point in language and communication breaks down. Do you honestly disagree with that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change

 

[PtldPlatypus]

You say gender is a "fluid" concept because you're used to thinking of gender as binary; in fact, it is a spectrum. You fall somewhere along the spectrum.

That still ignores the crux of the question. Is gender a social construct, or an essential aspect of ontology? Or if both, how does that work?

 

[Denny Crane]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change

Score one for the trained linguist.

 

[Denny Crane]

That still ignores the crux of the question. Is gender a social construct, or an essential aspect of ontology? Or if both, how does that work?

It's both.

Girls play with dolls, boys play with toy guns. Men hunt, women cook. Those are stereotypical roles (social constructs) that have evolved quite a bit in the past 50+ years, if not more.

A person can feel with every fiber of their being that they should play with dolls. And all the roles that go along with being a girl. Regardless of genetalia. Works for the roles in reverse.

It's a bit more complex because societal pressures (parents, bullies, class mates, etc.) might prevent the person from assuming the outward appearance consistent with their gender identity.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

By that logic, a white man who likes rap music, fried chicken, and watermelons should be referred to as black. That is ridiculous.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

By that logic, a white man who likes rap music, fried chicken, and watermelons should be referred to as black. That is ridiculous.

[video=youtube;xrzivK7LJDw]

 

[Denny Crane]

By that logic, a white man who likes rap music, fried chicken, and watermelons should be referred to as black. That is ridiculous.

Must have gone way over your head.

The roles were examples. Use your imagination and figure out there are way more

Even your white man / black man analogy isn't so black and white. What do you call the child of a black man and white woman?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

White Privilege:

 

[blazerboy30]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change

You aren't asking for a semantic change.

 

[blazerboy30]

Score one for the trained linguist.

Well...no.

Score one for the strawman.

 

[huevonkiller]

That's dope bruh.

 

[blazerboy30]

This is such gibberish and meaningless rambling.

It's both.

Girls play with dolls, boys play with toy guns. Men hunt, women cook. Those are stereotypical roles (social constructs) that have evolved quite a bit in the past 50+ years, if not more.

A person can feel with every fiber of their being that they should play with dolls. And all the roles that go along with being a girl. Regardless of genetalia. Works for the roles in reverse.

That doesn't make them a female. It means they like some of the things that most girls like. There is a huge difference, and it's called genetics. It isn't that difficult to understand.