Gender issue revisited - Buck Angel (7 Viewers)

[VanillaGorilla]

Must have gone way over your head.

The roles were examples. Use your imagination and figure out there are way more

Even your white man / black man analogy isn't so black and white. What do you call the child of a black man and white woman?

If you replace boys with blacks and girls with whites and change the stereotypes to be racial, what exactly is the difference from your original example?

Both are wrong.

The son of a black man and white woman is half black and half white. He can play with dolls, hunt, and listen to Cambodian psychedelic rock, he will still be a half white and half black boy. These aren't choices.



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[oldguy]

Must have gone way over your head.

The roles were examples. Use your imagination and figure out there are way more

Even your white man / black man analogy isn't so black and white. What do you call the child of a black man and white woman?

I'm pretty sure from this thread you would refer to them as black if they are wearing baggy pants and lots of bling, and refer to them as honky if they wear levis and tennis shoes, without regard for their color.

Go Blazers

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Yeah, half black, half white would be mixed race. Not black, not white, but a hybrid.

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm pretty sure from this thread you would refer to them as black if they are wearing baggy pants and lots of bling, and refer to them as honky if they wear levis and tennis shoes, without regard for their color.

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

Even if I don't agree with some of the opinions expressed in this thread, I learned a lot about the subject. A tip of my hat to those that helped me see things in a different light.

Go Blazers

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

You aren't asking for a semantic change.

I'm not asking for anything. I'm pointing out that there is in fact a semantic change that has happened, or is in the process of happening.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

This is such gibberish and meaningless rambling.



That doesn't make them a female. It means they like some of the things that most girls like. There is a huge difference, and it's called genetics. It isn't that difficult to understand.

I still don't understand what you don't understand about gender (not biological sex) being socially constructed. We're not talking about genetics.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

By that logic, a white man who likes rap music, fried chicken, and watermelons should be referred to as black. That is ridiculous.

You see the complexity of the issue. But the problem still remains.

There is a well known stand up comedian in the Middle East named Wonho Chung. His parents are both Korean. But, he grew up in Jordan, speaks Arabic as his native language, and identifies as an Arab. Should he not be able to say he is an Arab?

How about Brother Ali, the albino rapper? Both his parents are black, but he looks white. Should he not be able to call himself black?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

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[MarAzul]

I still don't understand what you don't understand about gender (not biological sex) being socially constructed. We're not talking about genetics.

Do you mean thiis dictionary definition is incorrect?

gender

2 The properties that distinguish organisms on the basis of their reproductive roles

Number ! doesn't seem to fit this topic either.

1 A grammatical category in inflected languages governing the agreement between nouns and pronouns and adjectives; n some languages it is quite arbitrary but in Indo-European languages it is usually based on sex or animateness

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Do you mean thiis dictionary definition is incorrect?

gender

2 The properties that distinguish organisms on the basis of their reproductive roles

Number ! doesn't seem to fit this topic either.

1 A grammatical category in inflected languages governing the agreement between nouns and pronouns and adjectives; n some languages it is quite arbitrary but in Indo-European languages it is usually based on sex or animateness

The word "gender" that your generation grew up using has undergone a slow semantic shift over the past 30 years.

Grammatical gender doesn't really apply, but it's actually kind of relevant because some languages have dozens of grammatical genders! There isn't just two. Hell, even English has three genders.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I used the playboy magazine example to point out there was an "aha!" moment where you realized you were attracted to girls. Before puberty, I wasn't much attracted to girls; didn't really think about it much, if at all.

Shit. I learned at a very young age I liked girls. I never was the type to be mean to girls I liked, even at 4, 5, 6, and on. I'd be like, "you're the raspberry jelly to my peanut butter." If I had known what sex was, I had a high sex drive at a very early age. There was no aha moment for me. I don't think many have an "aha" moment. I think many just have a natural attraction, and that's the way it is. That's why I think hate towards gays is such a terrible thing. It's a natural feeling and attraction they have for the same sex just as I view the opposite sex. You can't hate that.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Lord Fluffy Pants is reserved for barfo.

Didn't we just go over personal attacks?

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Didn't we just go over personal attacks?

Seriously. Lord Fluffy Pants would be offended.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

That's what I'm saying.

 

[huevonkiller]

Shit. I learned at a very young age I liked girls. I never was the type to be mean to girls I liked, even at 4, 5, 6, and on. I'd be like, "you're the raspberry jelly to my peanut butter." If I had known what sex was, I had a high sex drive at a very early age. There was no aha moment for me. I don't think many have an "aha" moment. I think many just have a natural attraction, and that's the way it is. That's why I think hate towards gays is such a terrible thing. It's a natural feeling and attraction they have for the same sex just as I view the opposite sex. You can't hate that.

Strawberry Jelly for me famz.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I have no doubt you enjoy a "strawberry sandwich".

 

[BrianFromWA]

Please don't think this is insensitive, these are legit questions I have (and like oldguy said, I didn't even know some of the topics in this thread were actual topics, so kudos), and I'll use a real-life public figure as an example...

Chelsea Manning (I'm pretty sure) has the body that is physically male, XY chromosomes, etc. She has now asked to be identified as a woman, changed her name, and desires treatments/surgeries/whatever to make that happen. Fair enough.

Pre-name change, Private Bradley Manning (I assume) had the same desires/thoughts/feelings/"gender leanings" that Chelsea does now. Would it have been legal and/or appropriate for Private Bradley Manning to have been using the women's bathroom, showering with women, living in the women's barracks because he identified as a woman gender-ally, vice being male physically? Or was it an infringement on his rights to make him do the same with the physically male?

I ask because there doesn't seem to be a way to reconcile it--either it's an infringement on the rights of the trans-person to be forced to utilize the facilities that they physically identify with, rather than how they identify gender-ally; or you do away with physical male/physical female segregation and segregate by gender identification (sexual identification?), which seems to be a "separate but equal" issue waiting to come up.

Put another way, I personally would feel as uncomfortable with a physical female (who identified with male) taking a shower next to be in the gym, on the submarine, etc. Chelsea Manning (even knowing her sexuality, how she identifies, etc) taking a shower next to me would not be an issue. Would you say that's just bigotry on my part? Is that something that society should be cleansed of? And (not legally, but societally) are we all comfortable with physical males able to walk into women's showers without question, and assume that they are there with good intentions because they identify with being a female, vice being a predator? Again, just mho, but I tend to error on the side of protecting women, because I don't believe in the inherent goodness of individuals.

 

[huevonkiller]

I have no doubt you enjoy a "strawberry sandwich".

I know someone like you.

I made this face once in an online conversation ":O~", and this guy I was speaking with immediately thought of guy on guy action for some reason. You're just like him, I think that reflects more on you dude, and your insecurity and the thoughts going through your head. ;]

I accept you no matter what, no worries. :O

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I know someone like you.

I made this face once in an online conversation ":O~", and this guy I was speaking with immediately thought of guy on guy action for some reason. You're just like him, I think that reflects more on you dude, and your insecurity and the thoughts going through your head. ;]

I accept you no matter what, no worries. :O

It sounds like you and I have different meanings to "strawberry sandwich".

You've clearly made the wrong conclusion.

I am insulted and feel attacked.

But really, while the third sentence is apparently in violation of S2 rules as I understand them, sentences 1 and 2 are totally serious.

 

[MARIS61]

A lot of TG people don't take hormone treatment, cross dress, etc. It's not a simple thing. Especially with societal pressures, bigotry, etc.

The rule is you call the person what they look like. Dresses like a woman, she is a woman.

That's 2 rules. Dressing like a woman doesn't make one look like a women.

 

[MARIS61]

Must have gone way over your head.

The roles were examples. Use your imagination and figure out there are way more

Even your white man / black man analogy isn't so black and white. What do you call the child of a black man and white woman?

Whatever his parents name it.

 

[MARIS61]

Yeah, half black, half white would be mixed race. Not black, not white, but a hybrid.

All modern day races are mixed, and all evolved from the same original race.

 

[Denny Crane]

Shit. I learned at a very young age I liked girls. I never was the type to be mean to girls I liked, even at 4, 5, 6, and on. I'd be like, "you're the raspberry jelly to my peanut butter." If I had known what sex was, I had a high sex drive at a very early age. There was no aha moment for me. I don't think many have an "aha" moment. I think many just have a natural attraction, and that's the way it is. That's why I think hate towards gays is such a terrible thing. It's a natural feeling and attraction they have for the same sex just as I view the opposite sex. You can't hate that.

Now you're getting somewhere. Realize that for transgendered, they had no aha moment, they just have a natural feeling they're the opposite gender of their genitals.

 

[Denny Crane]

That's 2 rules. Dressing like a woman doesn't make one look like a women.

The gay guys in Monty Python liked to cross dress. They didn't look like women, nor did they claim to be.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Now you're getting somewhere. Realize that for transgendered, they had no aha moment, they just have a natural feeling they're the opposite gender of their genitals.

I wasn't going to make the comment at all, as I knew you'd respond as if it somehow supported hat you were arguing. But I don't agree. I had a better answer ready last night, but after working until 10pm followed by a shitty night's sleep, I don't remember my retort. But suffice to say, for gay people who always knew they were gay, why didn't they identify with being transgendered and straight instead (say, crandc feels she's really a straight man in a woman's body). If we're talking biological sex, to me, I don't really think you're going to convince me that someone with a penis is a woman and vice versa. By all means, please keep trying. I'll ask the questions and I'll listen. And from it, if nothing else, there's a greater understanding of a different viewpoint.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

When is someone going to answer Brian's legit question?

 

[Denny Crane]

I wasn't going to make the comment at all, as I knew you'd respond as if it somehow supported hat you were arguing. But I don't agree. I had a better answer ready last night, but after working until 10pm followed by a shitty night's sleep, I don't remember my retort. But suffice to say, for gay people who always knew they were gay, why didn't they identify with being transgendered and straight instead (say, crandc feels she's really a straight man in a woman's body). If we're talking biological sex, to me, I don't really think you're going to convince me that someone with a penis is a woman and vice versa. By all means, please keep trying. I'll ask the questions and I'll listen. And from it, if nothing else, there's a greater understanding of a different viewpoint.

She's addressed your question more than once.

You can be straight/transgendered or gay/transgendered. In other words, gender is not tied to sexual preference.

I really do think you're close to "getting it." You say "gay people always knew they were gay" and you can accept that. Transgendered people "always knew they were gender opposite their genitals." It's no leap; it's obvious.

 

[Denny Crane]

Please don't think this is insensitive, these are legit questions I have (and like oldguy said, I didn't even know some of the topics in this thread were actual topics, so kudos), and I'll use a real-life public figure as an example...

Chelsea Manning (I'm pretty sure) has the body that is physically male, XY chromosomes, etc. She has now asked to be identified as a woman, changed her name, and desires treatments/surgeries/whatever to make that happen. Fair enough.

Pre-name change, Private Bradley Manning (I assume) had the same desires/thoughts/feelings/"gender leanings" that Chelsea does now. Would it have been legal and/or appropriate for Private Bradley Manning to have been using the women's bathroom, showering with women, living in the women's barracks because he identified as a woman gender-ally, vice being male physically? Or was it an infringement on his rights to make him do the same with the physically male?

I ask because there doesn't seem to be a way to reconcile it--either it's an infringement on the rights of the trans-person to be forced to utilize the facilities that they physically identify with, rather than how they identify gender-ally; or you do away with physical male/physical female segregation and segregate by gender identification (sexual identification?), which seems to be a "separate but equal" issue waiting to come up.

Put another way, I personally would feel as uncomfortable with a physical female (who identified with male) taking a shower next to be in the gym, on the submarine, etc. Chelsea Manning (even knowing her sexuality, how she identifies, etc) taking a shower next to me would not be an issue. Would you say that's just bigotry on my part? Is that something that society should be cleansed of? And (not legally, but societally) are we all comfortable with physical males able to walk into women's showers without question, and assume that they are there with good intentions because they identify with being a female, vice being a predator? Again, just mho, but I tend to error on the side of protecting women, because I don't believe in the inherent goodness of individuals.

If Manning dresses (near) full time as a male, presents as a male, etc., he's a male. He's assumed that gender. He uses the men's facilities.

Guys like him have probably been in the showers next to you many times and you didn't know it. Were you harmed in some way?