GM Stock- Not For You/Not For Me

[barfo]

It's not a classic merger as described. They're spinning off and selling off 49% stake in GMAC and Chrysler's credit company as well.

Well, they didn't get the deal done, I think we can agree on that?

As a result you and I are majority stockholders in GMAC.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Well, they didn't get the deal done, I think we can agree on that?

As a result you and I are majority stockholders in GMAC.

barfo

I think with the government guaranteeing you won't fail, there's no reason to make the deal happen.

And the Union is the big shareholder as a result. Nice way to pay back the campaign donors.

 

[barfo]

I think with the government guaranteeing you won't fail, there's no reason to make the deal happen.

That deal was dead prior to the bailout. In fact, this article says it died for lack of a government bailout.

So, basically, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

And the Union is the big shareholder as a result. Nice way to pay back the campaign donors.

The union is not "the big shareholder". The US of A is the big shareholder. The UAW owns 17.5%.

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

The bailouts destroyed housing prices, which are still falling. All it did was allow big banks to buy slightly smaller banks.

If you mean selling prices, they were artificially bloated beyond reality due to illegal loan procedures years before the bailouts, and actual selling prices crashed hard before Obama was even elected. Bush was the author of the bank bailout.

Prices right now are about where they should be in a historical average, discounting a bit for the recession. You are right, they are still falling even though buying has picked up quite a bit. There is an amazingly large supply of foreclosures in the pipeline. Retirees, investors and first-time homebuyers are making the best investment of their lives right now. It's the rates, not the prices, that brings them to the table right now. When they raise the incredibly low interest rates again, which they will, buying will slow to a crawl.

 

[Denny Crane]

That deal was dead prior to the bailout. In fact, this article says it died for lack of a government bailout.

So, basically, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.



The union is not "the big shareholder". The US of A is the big shareholder. The UAW owns 17.5%.

barfo

The reuters article only reinforces what I've written. The deal wasn't dead prior to the bailout, it was dead because the expectation was the govt. would be the sucker to put up more capital.

Geez. Bill Gates wasn't much of a shareholder in Microsoft, even though he owned 10% of the company. How much is he worth? $50B+

You can figure the unions were given at least that much wealth for their 17.5%.

 

[barfo]

The reuters article only reinforces what I've written. The deal wasn't dead prior to the bailout, it was dead because the expectation was the govt. would be the sucker to put up more capital.

Wow, you have no shame, do you? You'll just say anything to avoid admitting you were wrong. Black is white. Down is up.

Geez. Bill Gates wasn't much of a shareholder in Microsoft, even though he owned 10% of the company. How much is he worth? $50B+

You can figure the unions were given at least that much wealth for their 17.5%.

Bill Gates might well be described as "the big shareholder" in MSFT, since no one owns more than him. However, since the US owns 61% of GM, and the unions own 17.5%, it is incorrect to say that the unions are "the big shareholder" in GM. A big shareholder, would be perfectly acceptable. The big shareholder is incorrect.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

The government is selling off its stock, no? Isn't that how we get our money back!

So the union is the big shareholder. When the dust settles. Or maybe China will own more, hard to tell at this point.

And when the guys involved in trying to make a deal got a whiff the govt. would cover it, then not, the deal died. They were waiting for the sucker to get elected and take office who'd put taxpayer money in the deal.

 

[barfo]

The government is selling off its stock, no? Isn't that how we get our money back!

So the union is the big shareholder. When the dust settles. Or maybe China will own more, hard to tell at this point.

It's not that hard to tell. The US will own about 43% of GM after the IPO. The union will own about 12.5%

And when the guys involved in trying to make a deal got a whiff the govt. would cover it, then not, the deal died. They were waiting for the sucker to get elected and take office who'd put taxpayer money in the deal.

Right. They decided to bet their company on the possibility of Obama getting elected and bailing them out. I don't think GM has had that much foresight for at least 30 years.
Besides which, the bailout removed both stockholders and top management. So how exactly was the bailout a good thing for GM decision-makers, something that they would be avidly hoping for?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

It's not that hard to tell. The US will own about 43% of GM after the IPO. The union will own about 12.5%



Right. They decided to bet their company on the possibility of Obama getting elected and bailing them out. I don't think GM has had that much foresight for at least 30 years.
Besides which, the bailout removed both stockholders and top management. So how exactly was the bailout a good thing for GM decision-makers, something that they would be avidly hoping for?

barfo

The Bush administration offered them a deal, they chose to wait for the next administration for a better deal. Read your own article.

And nobody is denying the owners and investors and main street investors in GM got screwed.

 

[barfo]

The Bush administration offered them a deal, they chose to wait for the next administration for a better deal. Read your own article.

But they didn't get a better deal from the next administration, did they? Obama administration didn't fund a GM/Chrysler merger either. So, if the merger was such a great opportunity as you claim, they pretty much blew it. Of course that wouldn't be surprising, since GM and Chrysler management was pretty much incompetent.

On the other hand, maybe it wasn't quite such a great opportunity as you'd have me believe, and maybe a government bailout was the only way they could make it pencil out.

And nobody is denying the owners and investors and main street investors in GM got screwed.

That's what happens when you go bankrupt.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

But they didn't get a better deal from the next administration, did they? Obama administration didn't fund a GM/Chrysler merger either. So, if the merger was such a great opportunity as you claim, they pretty much blew it. Of course that wouldn't be surprising, since GM and Chrysler management was pretty much incompetent.

On the other hand, maybe it wasn't quite such a great opportunity as you'd have me believe, and maybe a government bailout was the only way they could make it pencil out.



That's what happens when you go bankrupt.

barfo

GM got a better deal from Obama. $billions in direct aid.

Government didn't step in to save the buggy whip companies. What a disaster that was!

 

[barfo]

GM got a better deal from Obama. $billions in direct aid.

GM got a lousy deal from the government. The government took the whole company, fired the managers, wiped out the stockholders and the bondholders.

If you are running a company, having that happen is pretty much the furthest thing from "a better deal". That's a fucking nuclear disaster.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Government didn't step in to save the buggy whip companies. What a disaster that was!

What fraction of GDP did buggy whip manufacturers account for?

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

What fraction of GDP did buggy whip manufacturers account for?

barfo

When everyone rode horses, a lot.

 

[Denny Crane]

GM got a lousy deal from the government. The government took the whole company, fired the managers, wiped out the stockholders and the bondholders.

If you are running a company, having that happen is pretty much the furthest thing from "a better deal". That's a fucking nuclear disaster.

barfo

You differentiate between the owners, managers, stockholders, investors, etc., and the company. Quite nicely.

Where is GM today? Still in business?

Profitable, just like Ford is, and Ford didn't take a dime.

 

[Sug]

The bailouts destroyed housing prices, which are still falling. All it did was allow big banks to buy slightly smaller banks.

Housing prices demonstrated the largest inflation this country has ever seen due to reckless borrowing by both the Bush admin and private citizens. Not we pay the piper, which is that the housing market is correcting back to where it should have been. People want to bitch and moan about Obama, well the housing crisis was a product of stupidity and greed by both the government in place at the time of reckless borrowing and mortgage lending and the sheep that thought flipping houses was God's gift. I have zero sympathy for the people that are upside down in their home, it was a stupid time to buy if you know anything about finance. It was a bubble, and boy did it burst.

The next domino is credit card debt by the way. There is something like 50 Billion in cards out there that is slowly getting exercised. These were mainly inactive cards sitting in drawers, and banks actually started cancelling unused cards and lowering limits.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0829429/

This movie does a great job of talking about what was going to happen before it actually happened. It basically called the housing crisis two years before it occurred, and it warns about the credit card crisis being even worse after the housing bubble burst.

 

[Denny Crane]

Housing prices demonstrated the largest inflation this country has ever seen due to reckless borrowing by both the Bush admin and private citizens. Not we pay the piper, which is that the housing market is correcting back to where it should have been. People want to bitch and moan about Obama, well the housing crisis was a product of stupidity and greed by both the government in place at the time of reckless borrowing and mortgage lending and the sheep that thought flipping houses was God's gift. I have zero sympathy for the people that are upside down in their home, it was a stupid time to buy if you know anything about finance. It was a bubble, and boy did it burst.

The next domino is credit card debt by the way. There is something like 50 Billion in cards out there that is slowly getting exercised. These were mainly inactive cards sitting in drawers, and banks actually started cancelling unused cards and lowering limits.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0829429/

This movie does a great job of talking about what was going to happen before it actually happened. It basically called the housing crisis two years before it occurred, and it warns about the credit card crisis being even worse after the housing bubble burst.

I don't owe $.01 on a credit card and really haven't since the 1980s. I'd rather do without than pay the interest on one of those things. I had one that I used when travelling, but that one sat in a drawer recently until the credit card company cancelled it. I won't miss it.

The bailouts were a direct transfer of taxpayer money to the banks who own all the foreclosed properties. If the money were used to pay down the loan balances, the banks would still have gotten the same dollars, but the people on main street would have properties that aren't upside down, far fewer foreclosures, and many people would be able to retire and live off the equity in those homes.

Instead, the banks bought other banks with the taxpayer money, and foreclosures are at outrageous rates. The only people able to afford the properties at their new lower valuations are people with good credit and the cash for the down payment - i.e. the rich.

Not only were the people who weren't qualified to buy properties screwed out of their down payment and (perhaps) good credit ratings, the people who lived next door who paid their mortgage like clockwork saw a good chunk of their life savings evaporate due to the 14 foreclosed properties on the block for sale at distressed prices.

There shouldn't have been those foreclosures if the bailout money paid down the mortgage balances.

 

[barfo]

You differentiate between the owners, managers, stockholders, investors, etc., and the company. Quite nicely.

Yes. Different people have different agendas. But it's hard to see how anyone's agenda would have included going belly-up and handing control to the government. Your theory that GM "wanted" this is ridiculous.

Where is GM today? Still in business?

Actually, no. Technically, GM went bankrupt and was liquidated (or maybe it is still being liquidated, not sure).
A new corporation was formed which bought most of the assets of GM, including the name.

Profitable, just like Ford is, and Ford didn't take a dime.

Not sure what you think that proves. Ford wasn't as bad off as GM, owing to slightly better management decisions in the past.

barfo

 

[barfo]

I don't owe $.01 on a credit card and really haven't since the 1980s. I'd rather do without than pay the interest on one of those things.

Doing without and paying interest aren't the only two choices, you know. If you pay the credit card bills in a timely fashion, you don't pay any interest.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSGbKv4baG_g&refer=canada#

 

[Denny Crane]

Doing without and paying interest aren't the only two choices, you know. If you pay the credit card bills in a timely fashion, you don't pay any interest.

barfo

I prefer to have as few bills in the mail as possible. I don't owe on my car either, and haven't had a car loan since the '80s as well. It has nothing to do with being well paid or anything. I simply saved up to buy the car and made due with the old one until I could afford it.

 

[BGrantFan]

bafo doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, as usual.


Stop embarrassing yourself. You're the captain of Team DNC.

 

[BGrantFan]

Doing without and paying interest aren't the only two choices, you know. If you pay the credit card bills in a timely fashion, you don't pay any interest.

barfo

Try taking out a loan without paying interest and see hot that works out for you.

Also, GM went bankrupt AFTER that bail-out. In a normal bankruptcy, the creditors would have first shot at assets. Because of the bailout, that didn't happen. Instead, the union gets the assets, and gets protection. You really have no fucking clue.

 

[barfo]

Try taking out a loan with paying interest and see hot that works out for you.

Try it in English next time, it might make more sense.

barfo

 

[barfo]

bafo doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, as usual.


Stop embarrassing yourself. You're the captain of Team DNC.

Feel free to take any statement I've made in this thread and show it to be incorrect. I won't hold my breath.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Feel free to take any statement I've made in this thread and show it to be incorrect. I won't hold my breath.

barfo

Man up, would you?

Denny Crane

 

[BGrantFan]

Feel free to take any statement I've made in this thread and show it to be incorrect. I won't hold my breath.

barfo

Your entire premise on the "liquidation" is flawed. GM was not a traditional bankruptcy. I'm not going to spend the entire night pointing out how idiotic your posts are in this thread. Denny Crane already did so, you just are too ignorant or stubborn to accept the fact. Go Team DNC!

Also, how long have you been a member of the SEIU? Curious, "purplo" Commie.

 

[barfo]

Your entire premise on the "liquidation" is flawed.

What is my supposed premise? All I said about liquidation is that the old GM was liquidated (or is being liquidated). That is a fact.

GM was not a traditional bankruptcy. I'm not going to spend the entire night pointing out how idiotic your posts are in this thread. Denny Crane already did so, you just are too ignorant or stubborn to accept the fact. Go Team DNC!

Ah, yes, the old "I don't have time to actually make an argument" gambit. Very convincing.

Also, how long have you been a member of the SEIU? Curious, "purplo" Commie.

I am not currently a member of any union. Many years ago, I was a Teamster.

barfo