God's not dead

[MARIS61]

Agreed, He is very much alive and this world is going to undergo divine judgement. Things keep playing out like the Bible predicted thousands of years ago. We are living in the times of Noah, where they laughed and laughed as he built the ark, then got rained on. A lot.

Nothing in the bible has ever come true, not surprisingly.

Those who force themselves to believe in absurd fictional superbeing daddies in the sky doom themselves to wasting the only life they will ever have.

Before it's too late, please get a grip on reality and join humanity here on Earth.

 

[Further]

Ok mags, here is my thinking on a couple of your questions.

In my daily life, when mingling with Christians I will almost never discuss god v atheism because it's a tough topic for many. Here, we are in an off topic section and this is a perfect to discuss these issues with those who wish to participate, while others can check out other threads. I rarely talk with other atheists about these issues because the fun is the debate, and if we agree it just gets boring quick.

I do find this topic important in the long run because those that believe strictly in the bible (more than simple allegory) tend to deny any scientific findings that don't match with their religion, and in some cases that can be dangerous for society.

This may make me seem petty, but I feel like this whole society is set up for the religious, and it just gets annoying. Specifically Christian. Growing up Jewish and having every tv show, class musical, political speech, radio song, news report ..... In December have to do with Christmas really got under my skin.

Now growing older, I've gained perspective and the grudge is gone, but although I have gained respect for many Christian individuals, I really haven't gained any respect for that, or any religion. I find many parts beautiful and historically important, producing many great people and even many inspiring concepts. But as a whole, I just think it's wrong and overall a detriment to our current modern society. I do believe in the past it may have been beneficial,but it's outlived it's purpose.




Odenroylma2
I know there is no convincing you, so I won't try, but I believe just as strongly that your throwing away of good science in order to fit your world view is bad for our society, as you likely feel that my throwing away of god is bad for my soul. Just as you may pray for me to accept Christ and see the beauty in his words, I hope one day you lose faith and are able to discover there is immense beauty in this world from a purely scientific, artistic and atheistic perspective. In no way do I wish anything bad upon you, I am looking at losing faith as a chance for blinders to be removed and a better world to be revealed, one based on evidence.

 

[Stevenson]

I have researched [evolution] and the so-called evidence for it is lacking and there are fatal holes in the theory, as well as some laughable reaches being made. There are also other explanations that are equally valid if not better.

Do you look the same as when you were 5 years old? No. Why? because you evolved. That's the deal. Evidence of it is right in front of our face, just in a longer form. Everything evolves.

 

[magnifier661]

Ok mags, here is my thinking on a couple of your questions.

In my daily life, when mingling with Christians I will almost never discuss god v atheism because it's a tough topic for many. Here, we are in an off topic section and this is a perfect to discuss these issues with those who wish to participate, while others can check out other threads. I rarely talk with other atheists about these issues because the fun is the debate, and if we agree it just gets boring quick.

I do find this topic important in the long run because those that believe strictly in the bible (more than simple allegory) tend to deny any scientific findings that don't match with their religion, and in some cases that can be dangerous for society.

This may make me seem petty, but I feel like this whole society is set up for the religious, and it just gets annoying. Specifically Christian. Growing up Jewish and having every tv show, class musical, political speech, radio song, news report ..... In December have to do with Christmas really got under my skin.

Now growing older, I've gained perspective and the grudge is gone, but although I have gained respect for many Christian individuals, I really haven't gained any respect for that, or any religion. I find many parts beautiful and historically important, producing many great people and even many inspiring concepts. But as a whole, I just think it's wrong and overall a detriment to our current modern society. I do believe in the past it may have been beneficial,but it's outlived it's purpose.




Odenroylma2
I know there is no convincing you, so I won't try, but I believe just as strongly that your throwing away of good science in order to fit your world view is bad for our society, as you likely feel that my throwing away of god is bad for my soul. Just as you may pray for me to accept Christ and see the beauty in his words, I hope one day you lose faith and are able to discover there is immense beauty in this world from a purely scientific, artistic and atheistic perspective. In no way do I wish anything bad upon you, I am looking at losing faith as a chance for blinders to be removed and a better world to be revealed, one based on evidence.

Bro it's all good and I actually like the debate. I can understand your frustration, especially being a Jew as well.

The concept of God is a very hard thing to grasp, when you lack Faith in the matter. I'm sure it's even more frustrating when debates with theists are like bashing your head against the wall.

For me, it's not "what God(s) you believe in", because believing in a God is the first step. Then I truly believe that your pursuit of finding which God is right for you will be the one I worship.

My direction isn't trying to tell you atheists are a bunch of dull tools in a shed, but that the idea is flawed. The idea that organic programming "DNA", just somehow programmed itself is insane! It makes as much sense as the spaghetti monster from space gushed it's plasm all over our planet to form life.

Darwin said evolution aren't jumps but gradual steps, yet even the empirical evidence on evolution had considerable "jumps" in it. At least what has been observed.

 

[magnifier661]

Do you look the same as when you were 5 years old? No. Why? because you evolved. That's the deal. Evidence of it is right in front of our face, just in a longer form. Everything evolves.

Conscious evolving has no similarities to natural selection. Evolution is physical changes to DNA coding. Growing up and getting smarter doesn't change your DNA.

 

[Eastoff]

Conscious evolving has no similarities to natural selection. Evolution is physical changes to DNA coding. Growing up and getting smarter doesn't change your DNA.

Do the typical players in the NBA look different now, then they did in the 60s? That is a form of selection, but not natural.

 

[magnifier661]

Do the typical players in the NBA look different now, then they did in the 60s? That is a form of selection, but not natural.

So you think coaches and management picking taller players, is a form of evolution? I would love to read your theory on this.

 

[Eastoff]

So you think coaches and management picking taller players, is a form of evolution? I would love to read your theory on this.

Yes, the rules of the game change (what plants and animals are available to eat, or the temperature and the chemicals in the air change) and the players (animals) adapt or lose their contract (die). The teams that are more successful, will be emulated (more three point shooting now, less bigs that stand around in the middle).

 

[magnifier661]

Yes, the rules of the game change (what plants and animals are available to eat, or the temperature and the chemicals in the air change) and the players (animals) adapt or lose their contract (die). The teams that are more successful, will be emulated (more three point shooting now, less bigs that stand around in the middle).

So you have empirical evidence on genetic mutations to support evolution?

 

[crowTrobot]

The idea that organic programming "DNA", just somehow programmed itself is insane! It makes as much sense as the spaghetti monster from space gushed it's plasm all over our planet to form life.

It's probably not the complete picture of how evolution actually works, but environmental selection makes perfect logical sense if you take the time to understand it.

It's perfectly logical that selection has the ability to mimic what humans intuitively think of as design. It's just not something you can make an intuitive judgment about, which is what you are apparently doing. Quantum mechanics seems "insane" to me intuitively, yet it is the most accurately tested theory in history.

Darwin said evolution aren't jumps but gradual steps, yet even the empirical evidence on evolution had considerable "jumps" in it. At least what has been observed.

depends on what you mean by jump. there is no evidence one species changed into another overnight. evolutionary change does seem to have different speeds, but you would logically expect it to operate slowly if the environment is stable, but speed up in response to sudden extreme environmental change, or after large extinction events.

 

[crowTrobot]

The concept of God is a very hard thing to grasp, when you lack Faith in the matter.

I know you have other reasons for belief, but in the case of statements like this "faith" is obviously just being used as an excuse for belief and not a reason anyone should care about.

Also most atheists grasp the concept of God (as well as it is definable) every bit as well as theists, in most cases better than.

For me, it's not "what God(s) you believe in", because believing in a God is the first step. Then I truly believe that your pursuit of finding which God is right for you will be the one I worship.

tell that to a billion Hindus

 

[magnifier661]

It's probably not the complete picture of how evolution actually works, but environmental selection makes perfect logical sense if you take the time to understand it.

It's perfectly logical that selection has the ability to mimic what humans intuitively think of as design. It's just not something you can make an intuitive judgment about, which is what you are apparently doing. Quantum mechanics seems "insane" to me intuitively, yet it is the most accurately tested theory in history.

The logic is evident when the genetics are already there. The major difference is "Nothing has been observed that states genetic coding has manifested from nothing". Even with all the primordial soup and excellent environmental conditions.

depends on what you mean by jump. there is no evidence one species changed into another overnight. evolutionary change does seem to have different speeds, but you would logically expect it to operate slowly if the environment is stable, but speed up in response to sudden extreme environmental change, or after large extinction events.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_51

From the article from Berkely, there have been observations of "quick jumps", but also explained that those jumps could be irregular fossil preservations. The general masses believe evolution is "slow and steady", over millions of years.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Crow and Mags, please stop with this polite debate. Or if you're going to continue it please include a few insults. Both of you are making this God Hating site look bad.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Agreed, He is very much alive and this world is going to undergo divine judgement. Things keep playing out like the Bible predicted thousands of years ago. We are living in the times of Noah, where they laughed and laughed as he built the ark, then got rained on. A lot.

But the fishes got to keep laughing.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Hey, they talk about Mags' banana-boy in this:
[video=youtube;GAU-HQPRk2g]

 

[magnifier661]

I know you have other reasons for belief, but in the case of statements like this "faith" is obviously just being used as an excuse for belief and not a reason anyone should care about.

As a theist, at least we understand that we do have some level of "faith" that drives our belief. As for the atheists... I think it's pretty arrogant that they believe they require no faith on the many outlining "faith driven" concepts of singularity, first self replicating genetics and lack of God.

Also most atheists grasp the concept of God (as well as it is definable) every bit as well as theists, in most cases better than.

Yes they do... They can hate a deity that they don't even believe exists. That is a high level of Faith!

tell that to a billion Hindus

http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/larryglasco/H1772/BBC_Hinduism.pdf

Hinduism as it is known and recognised today has been greatly affected by the influence of western thought and practices. In the 18th and 19th centuries, missionaries from Europe attempted to convert Hindus to Christianity with varying degrees of success. This challenged Hindu leaders to reform many practices and in some cases, revive old practices. This period has been recognised as a period of Hindu revivalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_India

Christianity is India's third-largest religion according to the census of 2001, with approximately 24 million followers, constituting 2.3 per cent of India's population.

There has been an excess increase of Christian conversion in India. Yes, the Hindus are still very dominant in India, but that number is at a slow decline. I guess the Christian Faith has more pull than you would like to give it credit for.

 

[magnifier661]

Crow and Mags, please stop with this polite debate. Or if you're going to continue it please include a few insults. Both of you are making this God Hating site look bad.

LOL!

 

[crowTrobot]

The logic is evident when the genetics are already there. The major difference is "Nothing has been observed that states genetic coding has manifested from nothing".

Nothing has been observed that states that it hasn't, or even that it was unlikely. That's just your intuitive assumption.

The general masses believe evolution is "slow and steady", over millions of years.

As I said it depends on your definition of Jump. Sharks haven't changed much in 100 million years. Other lineages such as whales have changed radically in a few million. There are different speeds, just nothing "overnight".

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Even better news: Odin's not dead either!

(You can't die if you never existed.)

 

[crowTrobot]

As a theist, at least we understand that we do have some level of "faith" that drives our belief. As for the atheists... I think it's pretty arrogant that they believe they require no faith on the many outlining "faith driven" concepts of singularity, first self replicating genetics and lack of God.

Except atheists don't "believe" in God-free origins. They think it is the best current explanation based on lack of evidence for a God. No faith is required for that.

There has been an excess increase of Christian conversion in India. Yes, the Hindus are still very dominant in India, but that number is at a slow decline. I guess the Christian Faith has more pull than you would like to give it credit for.

Islam is growing faster than Christianity. Irrelevant.

My point was religious belief is obviously much more heavily biased by cultural heritage than by people choosing to believe in God and then being divinely led to some sort of universally true "path" to God.

 

[magnifier661]

Nothing has been observed that states that it hasn't, or even that it was unlikely. That's just your intuitive assumption.

You should read what you just posted. You mock the theists that use this argument, yet you use it in this regard?

No sir, my assumption is based on empirical "lack of" evidence that cannot support that claim. It is no different than a theist saying "There is no evidence that God doesn't exist"

As I said it depends on your definition of Jump. Sharks haven't changed much in 100 million years. Other lineages such as whales have changed radically in a few million. There are different speeds, just nothing "overnight".

Yet, there are well over a 3-30 million different animal species, not even including the "plant species". All this occurring in 3 billion years from the first self replicating molecule. If you think that's possible, I suggest you go to vegas. The odds are much heavier in your favor.

 

[magnifier661]

Except atheists don't "believe" in God-free origins. They think it is the best current explanation based on lack of evidence for a God. No faith is required for that.

Ah yes, the Atheist philosophic poetry... "We are the rational thinkers". Believe the earth had been created by something we cannot or havenot observed because we are scientists and we know whats good for you. Sounds familiar? I seem to remember you and maris both claiming that's what theists do. Kinda hypocritical much?

Islam is growing faster than Christianity.Irrelevant.

My point was religious belief is obviously much more heavily biased by cultural heritage than by people choosing to believe in God and then finding some sort of universally true "path" to God.

They both believe in the same God of Abraham. Thanks for bringing that up.

EDIT: the irony is that no other faith has broke through "cultural heritage" than Christianity. Jews, Romans, and countless other traditions converted

 

[crowTrobot]

You should read what you just posted. You mock the theists that use this argument, yet you use it in this regard?

The difference is I don't claim to know how abiogenesis happened. You do.

As noted many times it would not shock me if there was some form of intelligence involved in the origin of life on earth. But at the moment what evidence there is supports that not being the case, so that is my base assumption.

Yet, there are well over a 3-30 million different animal species, not even including the "plant species". All this occurring in 3 billion years from the first self replicating molecule.

The number of species is easily explained by adaptive radiation. This is observable in action TODAY. It's not a problem at all for evolutionists.

If you think that's possible, I suggest you go to vegas. The odds are much heavier in your favor.

Once again this is just an irrelevant intuitive statement. If you think an electron can function as both a wave and a particle...

 

[santeesioux]

Even better news: Odin's not dead either!

(You can't die if you never existed.)

I have never seen a religious British person, are you all like Ricky Gervais?

 

[Denny Crane]

Even better news: Odin's not dead either!

(You can't die if you never existed.)

Zeus!

 

[magnifier661]

The difference is I don't claim to know how abiogenesis happened. You do.

Nice dodge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world_hypothesis

It has been well documented that this hypothesis is true by most of the scientific community. They will claim "I don't know how it happened, but it must of because its logical".

As noted many times it would not shock me if there was some form of intelligence involved in the origin of life on earth. But at the moment what evidence there is supports that not being the case, so that is my base assumption.

You must love our current economic "revolving debt" scam. Instead of establishing a foundation of economy of a substantial mineral like Gold, let's borrow money on money owed. There is plenty to go around. LOL

So who created the ones that created us? and this can continue for eternity!

The number of species is easily explained by adaptive radiation. This is observable in action TODAY. It's not a problem at all for evolutionists.

That would be great until the realization of what has been observed. In many cases, a drastic radiation change can completely decimate an entire species. Look no further than the dinos. Gradual climate changes can create gradual physical changes, but we've observed at least 3 ice ages, mega volcanoes and astroids that drastically changed the environment. This would only make the improbability even greater.

Once again this is just an irrelevant intuitive statement. If you think an electron can function as both a wave and a particle...

Once again, you have used a theory that hasn't been proven or even supported. Next will you use the "Multiverse Theory" to band-aide your next claim?

 

[crowTrobot]

They both believe in the same God of Abraham. Thanks for bringing that up.

If it doesn't matter what you believe ABOUT God it kind of makes your statement about being led to belief in a certain God vacuous. You're essentially validating 911 here lol.

EDIT: the irony is that no other faith has broke through "cultural heritage" than Christianity. Jews, Romans, and countless other traditions converted

False. As just noted Islam is growing faster than Christianity. It is infiltrating certain traditionally non-Muslim cultures in Europe right now. Also a lot of what happened historically with the spread of Christianity was driven by formation of theocracies, such as in late Rome.

Anyway, the fastest growing segment in the world in current demographic surveys is actually "non-religious".

 

[magnifier661]

If it doesn't matter what you believe ABOUT God it kind of makes your statement about being led to belief in a certain God vacuous. You're essentially validating 911 here lol.



False. As just noted Islam is growing faster than Christianity. It is infiltrating certain traditionally non-Muslim cultures in Europe right now. Also a lot of what happened historically with the spread of Christianity was driven by formation of theocracies, such as in late Rome.

Anyway, the fastest growing segment in the world in current demographic surveys is actually "non-religious".

Wrong again crowbot... Once again, you use a claim that didn't see all the angles...

Islam[edit]
Further information: Muslim population growth and Spread of Islam
In 1990, 1.1 billion people were Muslims.[64][65] According to the BBC, a comprehensive American study concluded in 2009 the number stood at approximately 23% of the world population with 60% of Muslims living in Asia.[66] From 1990 to 2010, the global Muslim population increased at an average annual rate of 2.2%. By 2030 Muslims are projected to represent about 26.4% of the global population (out of a total of 7.9 billion people).[67] Several sources believe that this increase is due to conversion and reproduction.[68][69] However, according to others, including the Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year: "Although the religion began in Arabia, by 2002 80% of all believers in Islam lived outside the Arab world. In the period 1990–2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity."[4] On the other hand, in 2010 the Pew Forum stated: "Statistical data on conversion to and from Islam are scarce. What little information is available suggests that there is no substantial net gain or loss in the number of Muslims through conversion globally; the number of people who become Muslims through conversion seems roughly equal to the number of Muslims who leave the faith. As a result, this report does not include any estimated future rate of conversions as a direct factor in the projections of Muslim population growth."

http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/...muslim-population-related-factors/#conversion

EDIT: Reply to bold... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

I'm curious where you are pulling your statements from? Do you wipe in that same area? I would like to see the findings that support your claim...

 

[crowTrobot]

Wrong again crowbot... Once again, you use a claim that didn't see all the angles...

There is conflicting information in what you just posted, and it doesn't support your claim that Islam doesn't spread through conversion locally (just that it possibly is globally neutral).

Also you're confused about what I'm actually disputing. You implied if someone chooses to believe in God then tries to find him they will inevitably end up with your God. Obviously in most cases people end up worshipping the God of their cultural heritage.

 

[magnifier661]

There is conflicting information in what you just posted, and it doesn't support your claim that Islam doesn't spread through conversion locally (just that it possibly is globally neutral).

Also you're confused about what I'm actually disputing. You implied if someone chooses to believe in God then tries to find him they will inevitably end up with your God. Obviously in most cases people end up worshipping the God of their cultural heritage.

What are the conflicting information? Claiming it without definition is about as relevant as saying a blue sky is actually red because of conflicting reviews.

As far as your claim with "adapting to the cultural faith" is also irrelevant. That goes against entire concept of Christianity. In fact, the same could be applied to any form of theism. There once was an old belief that converted to the new faith through time. So regardless if India is mainly Hindu, doesn't mean they won't convert to Christianity.