Golden State Warriors: Overrated or No? (1 Viewer)

[Denny Crane]

That the best stars in the world play in the NBA, a few of them from Europe (Dirk, Porzingas, the Gasols, Parker, Gobert, etc). And role players from the world over now scratch and claw to play in the NBA, whereas 20 years ago guys like Chris Dudley only had to be a little better than the next American stiff.

Anyway, I don't think you have a beef with Europeans.

I just wonder how you reconcile the massive cognitive dissonance of these two facts you believe:

1. More competitors and higher returns tends to generate greater competition in a market.
2. Except in the NBA.

The NBA isn't a free market. The CBA distorts the market at best. The league has an interest in selling memorabilia overseas.

The CBA clearly favored signing a Mirotic at a perceived discount to another player of similar perceived skills.

For every Dirk and Gasol, there are Rudy Fernandez' and Sergio Rodriguez'. Far more mediocre players than "stars."

If every NBA player retired today and were replaced with D Leaguers, the best players would be "stars" but the caliber of play wouldn't be as good. That's a pretty good parallel as I see it. Just a good chunk of the rosters are D Leaguer or worse quality, hence the caliber of play is less than it used to be.

Now take that scenario (D Leaguers all) and add Rudy to one of the teams and he's MVP. He's Dirk, Porzingas, the Gasols, etc.

I'm not at all saying that a European can't be a superstar here.

Does the local high school by you have a basketball program?

 

[Denny Crane]

Yao was an elite NBA player. His jersey was the #1 seller world wide.

Yi Jianlian was highly recruited for the NBA. His jerseys sold really well world wide. He wasn't an elite player. More of a bust.

But the jersey sales were huge for the league.

 

[Orion Bailey]

The NBA isn't a free market. The CBA distorts the market at best. The league has an interest in selling memorabilia overseas.

The CBA clearly favored signing a Mirotic at a perceived discount to another player of similar perceived skills.

For every Dirk and Gasol, there are Rudy Fernandez' and Sergio Rodriguez'. Far more mediocre players than "stars."

If every NBA player retired today and were replaced with D Leaguers, the best players would be "stars" but the caliber of play wouldn't be as good. That's a pretty good parallel as I see it. Just a good chunk of the rosters are D Leaguer or worse quality, hence the caliber of play is less than it used to be.

Now take that scenario (D Leaguers all) and add Rudy to one of the teams and he's MVP. He's Dirk, Porzingas, the Gasols, etc.

I'm not at all saying that a European can't be a superstar here.

Does the local high school by you have a basketball program?

Couldn't you say that abotu the NBA as well? How many stars vs mediocre players are there? I bet the % is roughly the same as the Euro league.

It seems like your trying to make it sound as if our end of bench players on teams are still better than anyone in the Euro league and Thats where I disagree.

For every star in ANY league, there will be a bunch of mediocre players.

 

[Denny Crane]

Couldn't you say that abotu the NBA as well? How many stars vs mediocre players are there? I bet the % is roughly the same as the Euro league.

It seems like your trying to make it sound as if our end of bench players on teams are still better than anyone in the Euro league and Thats where I disagree.

For every star in ANY league, there will be a bunch of mediocre players.

90% of our end of the bench players are WAY better than 99% of their players. Their 1% are great, but many don't make it here. Yi, for example.

 

[Schilly]

What if the legends of old looked better because the overall level of talent of yesteryear isn't as good as it is now?

 

[Nate]

I think another factor to consider, is that euro ball is different than nba basketball. I think it's probably easier to transition from being an American born college player, than being an international player.

 

[Nate]

Couldn't you say that abotu the NBA as well? How many stars vs mediocre players are there? I bet the % is roughly the same as the Euro league.

It seems like your trying to make it sound as if our end of bench players on teams are still better than anyone in the Euro league and Thats where I disagree.

For every star in ANY league, there will be a bunch of mediocre players.

The percentage is probably a lot higher in America, because we have so many more people that play.

 

[Denny Crane]

What if the legends of old looked better because the overall level of talent of yesteryear isn't as good as it is now?

Wade, LeBron, Bosh, Chalmers, Battier vs. McHale, Parrish, Bird, DJ, and Ainge (4 hall of famers, 5 all stars).

Both championship teams.

Or the Lakers:

Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Scott, A.C. Green (3 hall of famers).

You tell me.

 

[Schilly]

Also the debate of talent dilution in terms of expansion kind of changes the argument in terms of strength of teams generationally. Take for example the comparison of the current Warriors to the Showtime Lakers. At the time of the Lakers there were 23 teams not 30 or 7 less rosters of 15, 105 less players. You could essentially bump the bottom 3 guys off each roster and filter 35 starters out to the remaining 23 teams. Take a starter from say Charlotte and add him to the Warriors, then how do the Warriors compare to Showtime?

 

[Nate]

Wade, LeBron, Bosh, Chalmers, Battier vs. McHale, Parrish, Bird, DJ, and Ainge (4 hall of famers, 5 all stars).

Both championship teams.

Or the Lakers:

Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Scott, A.C. Green (3 hall of famers).

You tell me.

In terms of talent, Magic Kareem and Worthy obviously take the cake. But I'd say the heat come in second. And I don't consider the heat to be an all time great team.

 

[Denny Crane]

The percentage is probably a lot higher in America, because we have so many more people that play.

There are 361 schools playing NCAA men's basketball. There are 18,150 high schools with basketball teams. There are 30 x 15 = 450 roster spots in the NBA.

There odds of making the NBA are really small. 450 in 361*15+18,150*15*(some number of years)

There are maybe a couple hundred International teams, most of them not very good.

 

[Denny Crane]

Also the debate of talent dilution in terms of expansion kind of changes the argument in terms of strength of teams generationally. Take for example the comparison of the current Warriors to the Showtime Lakers. At the time of the Lakers there were 23 teams not 30 or 7 less rosters of 15, 105 less players. You could essentially bump the bottom 3 guys off each roster and filter 35 starters out to the remaining 23 teams. Take a starter from say Charlotte and add him to the Warriors, then how do the Warriors compare to Showtime?

So if you dilute the talent of the teams back then, you get what we have today?

Seems you're making my point for me

 

[Nate]

There are 361 schools playing NCAA men's basketball. There are 18,150 high schools with basketball teams. There are 30 x 15 = 450 roster spots in the NBA.

There odds of making the NBA are really small. 450 in 361*15+18,150*15*(some number of years)

There are maybe a couple hundred International teams, most of them not very good.

I was talking about the overall population. I should've clarified that.

 

[Schilly]

I just feel like so much of these discussions is basically a bunch of old guys sitting around complaining that they don't write music like they used to.

 

[Nate]

I just feel like so much of these discussions is basically a bunch of old guys sitting around complaining that they don't write music like they used to.

People don't like change!

 

[Denny Crane]

I just feel like so much of these discussions is basically a bunch of old guys sitting around complaining that they don't write music like they used to.

Or it's old guys watching the decline of the play in the league.

The league was worse before the ABA merger, for a few years, than after. That's quantifiable as well. Number of superstars divided by number of teams.

 

[Denny Crane]

In terms of talent, Magic Kareem and Worthy obviously take the cake. But I'd say the heat come in second. And I don't consider the heat to be an all time great team.

Bosh. Really?

He's shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

The Heat got to advance in the playoffs against 8th seeds that didn't win .500 of the games. Same may be true of the L*kers.

What kept OKC from being as good as those old teams is the CBA. They had to let Harden and others go to avoid luxury tax.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Bosh. Really?

He's shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

The Heat got to advance in the playoffs against 8th seeds that didn't win .500 of the games. Same may be true of the L*kers.

What kept OKC from being as good as those old teams is the CBA. They had to let Harden and others go to avoid luxury tax.

Through 13 years of their careers, Bosh and McHale actually match up pretty evenly.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...boshch01&y2=1993&p2=mchalke01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

 

[Denny Crane]

Through 13 years of their careers, Bosh and McHale actually match up pretty evenly.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...boshch01&y2=1993&p2=mchalke01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Look at the MP/game.

Boston was so good they could afford to have him play 6th man.

 

[Denny Crane]

But hey, check out this player's stats. Must be way better than Bosh or McHale.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/wnba/players/t/tauradi01w.html

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Look at the MP/game.

Boston was so good they could afford to have him play 6th man.

Look at per 36 stats, or per 100 possessions, or advanced stats. The similarity is undeniable. Also compare to Parish through 13 years. All around the same level.

Bosh is basically equal to McHale and Parish, and Wade is a cut above.

 

[Denny Crane]

Look at per 36 stats, or per 100 possessions, or advanced stats. The similarity is undeniable. Also compare to Parish through 13 years. All around the same level.

Bosh is basically equal to McHale and Parish, and Wade is a cut above.

McHale had to put up his numbers against Ewing and Olajawon.

Bosh got his against Rolo.

The opposition matters.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

McHale had to put up his numbers against Ewing and Olajawon.

Bosh got his against Rolo.

The opposition matters.

If you're going to back your assertion that past eras' players are better than the current era's players by simply further asserting the same, then this discussion can go nowhere.

 

[PDXFonz]

The game has changed just as much as the players have.

Some of the past greats would perform much differently in today's game.

 

[Denny Crane]

If you're going to back your assertion that past eras' players are better than the current era's players by simply further asserting the same, then this discussion can go nowhere.

Comparing stats from different eras is pointless.

You might infer the rules changes greatly benefit today's players.

 

[BonesJones]

This generation is better at certain skills than the previous generation. The level of play going down argument is bullshit.

Legends build over time.

The league is bigger.

 

[Nate]

McHale had to put up his numbers against Ewing and Olajawon.

Bosh got his against Rolo.

The opposition matters.

So bosh never played against Duncan or Shaq or amere or Howard or gasol or Ben Wallace. Cmon man....

 

[Nate]

Or it's old guys watching the decline of the play in the league.

The league was worse before the ABA merger, for a few years, than after. That's quantifiable as well. Number of superstars divided by number of teams.

No, people just don't like change. The same stupid argument goes on in the Marine Corps everyone thinks that they're "old corps" and anyone that came after then just sucks. Until you prove them wrong. But then they still think they're better cause they're "old corps".

 

[Denny Crane]

So bosh never played against Duncan or Shaq or amere or Howard or gasol or Ben Wallace. Cmon man....

First of all, Bosh isn't as good as those guys... But:

Duncan, Shaq, Amare, Howard, Gasol, Ben Wallace. He hasn't been playing against Shaq for the past 6 years, or Ben Wallace for the past 5.

Vs.

David Robinson, Kareem, Ewing, Moses Malone, Artis Gilmore, Jack Sikma, Daugherty, Mark Eaton, Hakeem, Alvan Adams, and Ralph Sampson. Almost all those guys played several seasons against one another, at the same time.

I left out a few lesser guys who would be elite in the league today. Tree Rollins was as good as DeAndre Jordan, for example.

 

[Nate]

First of all, Bosh isn't as good as those guys... But:

Duncan, Shaq, Amare, Howard, Gasol, Ben Wallace. He hasn't been playing against Shaq for the past 6 years, or Ben Wallace for the past 5.

Vs.

David Robinson, Kareem, Ewing, Moses Malone, Artis Gilmore, Jack Sikma, Daugherty, Mark Eaton, Hakeem, Alvan Adams, and Ralph Sampson. Almost all those guys played several seasons against one another, at the same time.

I left out a few lesser guys who would be elite in the league today. Tree Rollins was as good as DeAndre Jordan, for example.

I never said he was, I was just naming a couple of guys. You tried making it seem like bosh has never played against anyone good... That's a ridiculous argument.