Government shutdown thread

[BrianFromWA]

I'm kind of in harm's way right now. And it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to go back to my family and "GDP-making" jobs.

While I'm getting paid it's not big deal--I signed the contract a long time ago and when you fine people in the country say that you need my help, I go "serve". But when that contract isn't being honored, then what?

I mean, if McDonald's/Amazon/Boeing/S2/Blazers stopped paying employees, the employees wouldn't be thrown in jail if they went home.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I'm kind of in harm's way right now. And it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to go back to my family and "GDP-making" jobs.

While I'm getting paid it's not big deal--I signed the contract a long time ago and when you fine people in the country say that you need my help, I go "serve". But when that contract isn't being honored, then what?

I mean, if McDonald's/Amazon/Boeing/S2/Blazers stopped paying employees, the employees wouldn't be thrown in jail if they went home.

Have you not been listening to Denny . . . no ill effects, not one!

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm kind of in harm's way right now. And it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to go back to my family and "GDP-making" jobs.

While I'm getting paid it's not big deal--I signed the contract a long time ago and when you fine people in the country say that you need my help, I go "serve". But when that contract isn't being honored, then what?

I mean, if McDonald's/Amazon/Boeing/S2/Blazers stopped paying employees, the employees wouldn't be thrown in jail if they went home.

I'd be perfectly satisfied to let you go find employment elsewhere.

However, I'm a Libertarian, not an anarchist. That means I do feel we need government, but only of the essential kind. Your role in all that is essential enough.

So in the process of listing things we miss, we may come up with the same sort of list the republicans did when they passed partial funding of a few agencies. I mean, we may actually figure out what is essential and what fat should be cut.

 

[donkiez]

I think this shut down will extend a few weeks at least. How is this going to effect the debt ceiling issue due later this month? Government shutdown=default?

 

[Denny Crane]

If the govt. takes in $200B+ per month and owes $50B in interest on the national debt, how can it default?

 

[Nikolokolus]

It's been like 3 days as I write this. Obama and his employees are making a lot of noise about symbolic effects of the shutdown by putting barricades around open air public parks or memorials. Republicans are willing to pass the minimal amount of spending to allow those parks and memorials to remain open. Democrats are hurling around unbelievably moronic hyperbole using phrases like jihad, negotiating with terrorists, and worse.

While I find this all amusing, I notice no ill effects of the government being shut down. Not a single one.

It seems all the "non-essential" employees have been furloughed. If they're "non-essential," why exactly are we paying them?

Anyhow, I would like to see if or when anyone can point to some life altering experience due to the government being shut down.

I've got an anecdote. My brother is a hydrologist for the Army Corps of Engineers. Mostly he does inspections of dams and other assorted "non-essential" tasks. He and his wife have a newborn baby who had the bad timing to be born 6 days ago. His pre-approved paternity leave was suspended, he's not getting paid, his child can't be added to his insurance and his wife obviously isn't working right now either.

So yeah, there are consequences.

 

[Eastoff]

I think this shut down will extend a few weeks at least. How is this going to effect the debt ceiling issue due later this month? Government shutdown=default?

I expect a default, and then Obama uses 14th amendment to supersede the default and push the debt raise anyway. Then the Republicans will impeach him. I don't think he will be removed from office though.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Boehner seems fairly committed to avoiding default, so I doubt that happens, but he might lose his position as Speaker.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

I've got an anecdote. My brother is a hydrologist for the Army Corps of Engineers. Mostly he does inspections of dams and other assorted "non-essential" tasks. He and his wife have a newborn baby who had the bad timing to be born 6 days ago. His pre-approved paternity leave was suspended, he's not getting paid, his child can't be added to his insurance and his wife obviously isn't working right now either.

So yeah, there are consequences.

after experiencing military service during a shutdown, I do concede that it can be inconveniencing. Luckily it is only temporary. Not being paid is painful while it lasts, but most commands will establish partial funds to meet immediate needs, and there are sources that can be relied upon for emergencies. If he and his wife need to, have them contact Operation Home front or similar organization.

 

[Nikolokolus]

after experiencing military service during a shutdown, I do concede that it can be inconveniencing. Luckily it is only temporary. Not being paid is painful while it lasts, but most commands will establish partial funds to meet immediate needs, and there are sources that can be relied upon for emergencies. If he and his wife need to, have them contact Operation Home front or similar organization.

I know the Corps of Engineers is technically military and they have military bosses, but as far as I know he's considered a civilian (but not a contractor). I don't believe he's eligible for those benefits.

 

[Denny Crane]

I know the Corps of Engineers is technically military and they have military bosses, but as far as I know he's considered a civilian - not a contractor. I don't believe he's eligible for those benefits.

AFAIK, he'll get his back pay when the govt. reopens.

 

[Nikolokolus]

AFAIK, he'll get his back pay when the govt. reopens.

They did last time because the congress passed a resolution, but it's not set in stone.

 

[MarAzul]

I expect a default, and then Obama uses 14th amendment to supersede the default and push the debt raise anyway. Then the Republicans will impeach him. I don't think he will be removed from office though.

That is an interesting take considering the actual text of Section 5 of the 14th.

"Section 5.
The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."

I kind a take it that Congress is empowered, not the executive.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...cts-14th-amendment-to-raise-debt-ceiling.html

President Barack Obama has neither the legal authority nor the practical ability to bypass Congress and extend the nation’s borrowing limit, and attempting such a step might trigger turmoil in the markets, two top White House advisers said.

National Economic Council Director Gene Sperling and Obama adviser Dan Pfeiffer were responding to some congressional Democrats who urged Obama to extend the federal debt ceiling without congressional authorization under the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

...

Proponents cite the language of the 14th amendment, which says that the “validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payments of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.”

Obama and his advisers have consistently rejected using the amendment to justify raising the debt ceiling without Congressional support.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I've got an anecdote. My brother is a hydrologist for the Army Corps of Engineers. Mostly he does inspections of dams and other assorted "non-essential" tasks. He and his wife have a newborn baby who had the bad timing to be born 6 days ago. His pre-approved paternity leave was suspended, he's not getting paid, his child can't be added to his insurance and his wife obviously isn't working right now either.

So yeah, there are consequences.

Clearly he should have made better decisions in life.

 

[Denny Crane]

Clearly he should have made better decisions in life.

Shit happens.

http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/20/bl...ve-layoffs-reveals-1-billion-loss-in-q2-2014/

 

[PtldPlatypus]

When considering the "effects" of the government shutdown, I think we should differentiate between the effect on government employees and the effect on the overall citizenry. Yes, those who aren't being paid by the government are hurt by this, but then the question is, how would they be hurt if they were private sector employees? Or (as Denny has implied), how much smaller could our government be and still accomplish its role?

 

[blue9]

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...efund-obamacare-suicide-caucus-geography.html

18% of our country has hi-jacked the rest.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...efund-obamacare-suicide-caucus-geography.html

18% of our country has hi-jacked the rest.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...t-delaying-obamacare-but-oppose-defunding-it/

How are things working in the country today? Almost all voters -- 88 percent -- say “the government is in charge of the people.” That includes 83 percent of Democrats, 88 percent of independents and 94 percent of Republicans.

Only 8 percent feel “the people are in charge of the government.”

(that would mean the tiny % of people that are the government workers have hijacked the rest)

 

[blue9]

Nice strawman - try staying on topic.
I think I've made clear that I don't have a positive view of the government. But this is about the shut down, and it's ideologically driven by a very small minority of the population. Not even the majority of Republicans, or Republican leadership, agree with how this is being handled.
And please, don't ever use Fox News as source of reputable information.

 

[Denny Crane]

Nice strawman - try staying on topic.
I think I've made clear that I don't have a positive view of the government. But this is about the shut down, and it's ideologically driven by a very small minority of the population. Not even the majority of Republicans, or Republican leadership, agree with how this is being handled.
And please, don't ever use Fox News as source of reputable information.

You posted 18% of the country has hijacked the rest. I posted a poll that most people think even fewer have hijacked the rest (government).

Fox News polls are fine.

 

[magnifier661]

You posted 18% of the country has hijacked the rest. I posted a poll that most people think even fewer have hijacked the rest (government).

Fox News polls are fine.

It amazes me how people discredit Fox News because it's GOP heavy; yet they post articles and statistics from msnbc or CNN and say those liberal heavy networks are being fair.

 

[BigGameDamian]

Just saw on the news that the shutdown will make the price of milk 6 dollars a gallon.

 

[BrianFromWA]

 

[jlprk]

While I find this all amusing, I notice no ill effects of the government being shut down. Not a single one.

In addition to the several examples you have been given in this thread (your answer after being proven wrong was, "Shit happens"), here's what happens when private industry operates with too little government supervision even WITHOUT a shutdown. Imagine the lack of supervision in this private Lockheed factory WITH a government shutdown.

“While we expect government contractors to try to get away with as much as they can, in the case of the F-35, the Joint Program Office – the designated agent of the taxpayers and military operators – was not adequately minding the store,” Wheeler said.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/10/02/204042/pentagon-report-rips-texas-f-35.html

 

[Denny Crane]

In addition to the several examples you have been given in this thread (your answer after being proven wrong was, "Shit happens"), here's what happens when private industry operates with too little government supervision even WITHOUT a shutdown. Imagine the lack of supervision in this private Lockheed factory WITH a government shutdown.



http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/10/02/204042/pentagon-report-rips-texas-f-35.html

Ain't it grand ? Govt shut down, so they can't be bilked in things like the F35.

I bet the jack booted thugs who extract taxes from us all aren't furloughed.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[MarAzul]

It amazes me how people discredit Fox News because it's GOP heavy; yet they post articles and statistics from msnbc or CNN and say those liberal heavy networks are being fair.

I watched CNN a lot back when they had Crossfire. Then I switched to MSNBC with Hardball. Holy Cow! they changed over night, could not stomach the bugger any more starting about 2008.

I do tune in Sweet Cheeks Maddow though, about one a week just to keep up.

 

[jlprk]

"Please pay us Fs." What could Fs possibly mean?

 

[Denny Crane]

Interesting.

According to this article, the govt. is spending 83% as much as it was before the "shutdown."

http://washingtonexaminer.com/where...7-percent-government-shutdown/article/2536862

This figure assumes that the government pays amounts due on appropriations obligated before the shutdown ($512 billion), spends $225 billion on exempted military and civilian personnel, pays entitlement benefits for those found eligible before the shutdown (about $2 trillion), and pays interest costs when due ($237 billion). This is about 83 percent of projected 2014 spending of $3.6 trillion."

For Brian and those who mentioned civilians who work for the DoD et al:

In a conversation Thursday, a Republican member of Congress mentioned that the military pay act, passed by Congress and signed by President Obama at the beginning of the shutdown , is actually a huge percentage of the government's discretionary spending in any given year.

So my question for Brian is if they passed the military pay act and it was signed before the shutdown had any real effect, why wouldn't you be paid on time?