Great Win

[Mediocre Man]

We force fed LaMarcus in Utah and won.

No we didn't, we fed LA the ball within the offense. It's a huge difference.

 

[Boob-No-More]

People keep saying the Rockets have been playing so well lately, but their wins in their last 10 games have been against Cleveland, Sacramento, Memphis, Sacramento, Golden State, LA Clippers, Washington and Toronto. Sorry, but that's nothng to get excited about. Houston is a crappy team, and we should have beat them like we did. I didn't look at records, but I would bet all of the teams they beat had a worse record than the Rockets.

Well, wins are wins, and if those 8 of 10 aren't impressive enough, go back a little further. After starting the season 3 - 10, the Rockets were 13 - 6 over the previous 19 games, including wins over OKC and the Lakers.

And, they aren't just beating the teams they should beat, they have been beating them soundly (average margin of victory 10.4 points for their previous 8 wins - or 10.9 points for their previous 10 wins, including a 10 point win over the Lakers).

BNM

 

[mgb]

No we didn't, we fed LA the ball within the offense. It's a huge difference.

It was effective so it was different.

 

[PapaG]

It was effective so it was different.

Repped.

 

[MickZagger]

I think, in his mind, he has no other choice? Nate's big problem is that he likes to have 1 guy be the man, and run things through him. This happened in GS after the Blazers won 3 in a row at home sharing the ball and letting the guards handle the offense. In the game at GS we were force feeding Aldridge the ball and it hurt us. Hopefully Nate continues to just get out of the way

Who was that 1 guy in Seattle that he ran the team around?

Just admit it, I know it goes against your beaten to death argument that Nate's a lousy coach and all, but he's done a damn good job with the cards he's been dealt and this team has adapted nicely without its best player.

I teeter on Nate now and then, but I think he's doing a helluva job right now. We just won 2 games in a week period against the Jazz. That never happens. Ever. Even if were completely healthy. He did it with Mills and Marks in the regular rotation.

 

[MickZagger]

People keep saying the Rockets have been playing so well lately, but their wins in their last 10 games have been against Cleveland, Sacramento, Memphis, Sacramento, Golden State, LA Clippers, Washington and Toronto. Sorry, but that's nothng to get excited about. Houston is a crappy team, and we should have beat them like we did. I didn't look at records, but I would bet all of the teams they beat had a worse record than the Rockets.

Similar to the Knicks win streak last month. I don't see many people saying that the Knicks aren't a good team (not that I personally think they're great).

 

[Minstrel]

mediocre man has an NBA scout friend who tells him which wins are "good." That's professional opinion.

 

[jlprk]

Who was that 1 guy in Seattle that he ran the team around?

Ray Allen. Before that as a player, his offense went through Shawn Kemp, and Dale Ellis before that, when the Head Coach was Bernie Bickerstaff. Most of McMillan's Sonic teams heavily counted on one guy to score.

McMillan has limited creativity, but is conforming more this year to what his critics want. He's temporarily lost without Roy, so he's trying what those around him (critics, Bickerstaff, Andre Miller) want. We shall see whether he returns to form next season.

 

[MickZagger]

Ray Allen. Before that as a player, his offense went through Shawn Kemp, and Dale Ellis before that, when the Head Coach was Bernie Bickerstaff. Most of McMillan's Sonic teams heavily counted on one guy to score.

McMillan has limited creativity, but is conforming more this year to what his critics want. He's temporarily lost without Roy, so he's trying what those around him (critics, Bickerstaff, Andre Miller) want. We shall see whether he returns to form next season.

Allen barely scored more than Lewis.

 

[jlprk]

Just like Aldridge averaged almost as many points as Roy, but we all knew who was top dog in the last clutch minutes. McMillan's psyche was formed by Bernie's mantra, "Get it to Dale." Ellis was nothing before and after he had Bickerstaff as coach, when he averaged something like 24 ppg for a few years. They thought of Ellis as a superweapon like a nuclear cannon. All he could do was catch and shoot.

 

[Minstrel]

Before that as a player, his offense went through Shawn Kemp

It was a pretty balanced offense back then actually. Payton controlled the ball the most and he and Kemp were the main scorers, but Schrempf, McMillan and Perkins were all pretty significant contributors.

And Kemp definitely didn't do much isolating.

 

[jlprk]

You're looking at box scores. For a typical game, the aftergame stats appeared balanced, because Kemp was on the bench in foul trouble a third of the game. But when he was on the floor, it wasn't a balanced offense.

As for whether he isolated, don't picture him as an Amare, always receiving passes near the basket. Kemp received passes from overrated PG Payton about 20 feet out, and had to dribble to the hoop. He isolated a lot. (To the consternation of Karl...they weren't set plays.)

 

[Minstrel]

You're looking at box scores.

Nope. I didn't look at a single box score. I watched basketball the most in the 1990s and those Sonics teams were among my favourites, due to their great defense and enjoyable offense (unlike the Knicks, another good/great defensive team, who were painfully boring to watch on offense, IMO), so I was just going from memory.

As for whether he isolated, don't picture him as an Amare, always receiving passes near the basket. Kemp received passes from overrated PG Payton about 20 feet out, and had to dribble to the hoop. He isolated a lot.

He didn't, actually. And recently re-watching games from the Bulls/Sonics Finals assures me that my memories aren't incorrect. He got most of his points on jumpers, put-backs, loose ball clean-up and finishing plays in which he was set up. He was actually a fairly overrated offensive player (though a dominant rebounder, which allowed him to score so many put-back points). His perceived value on the offensive end was inflated by the impressive nature of his dunks. He was really not a great go-to guy, because he wasn't great at creating offense for himself.

 

[jlprk]

The way someone plays in the Finals is usually more efficient than in the regular season. I doubt he drove crazily from 20 feet in the Finals very much, but in regular games he used to isolate (and blow it often, because small hands made him a bad dribbler).

He never learned moves because he could rely on crazy quickness and strength. So in one way he was bad at offense, but in another way the opponent had to focus on him, freeing his teammates to get stats almost equal to his, so the illusion is that he wasn't the big wheel.

He sure was fun to watch. On the ESPN Sonic board, 3 of us were left defending the Alamo (till I came to this board) surrounded by invading Okies. One of us used to tell the story that he played at a club a lot, and Kemp when a Sonic would show up and play. He took cocaine breaks. Soon the team traded him. Later, he mysteriously couldn't lose weight. (I'm in favor of legalizing drugs--just noting why Shawn didn't last.) Never having learned moves, his career ended when his crazy athleticism did.

 

[Blazer4ever]

In a different topic: I've checked the paper for the top-16 in the Euroleague. Unicaja Malaga finished 3rd in their division (4 divisions, top 4 advance to the top 16) and a guy named "Freeland" (well, it's written in hebrew so that's not exactly right) leads the team in scoring.

Also, Maccabi finished first in it's division. Lior Eliyahu, their Power-Forward (picked by the Rockets in the draft a few years back) is a great offensive player with incredible ability that is getting less-cluelss (still has a long way to go) on defense. Sofoklis Schortzianitis - "Baby Shaq" - is a MASSIVE center that commands an almost instant double-team and has a great passing ability which makes for a hard-to-stop combo. The guards are Doron Perkins - a very good player with a knack for roaming the passing lanes and head for the easy fastbreak - and Jeremy Pargo, Jennero Pargo's more talented brother. The last starter is Eidson, I'm not sure where he's from geographically. Could be from the US? he's a white point-forward with extremely versatile abilities.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Just like Aldridge averaged almost as many points as Roy, but we all knew who was top dog in the last clutch minutes. McMillan's psyche was formed by Bernie's mantra, "Get it to Dale." Ellis was nothing before and after he had Bickerstaff as coach, when he averaged something like 24 ppg for a few years. They thought of Ellis as a superweapon like a nuclear cannon. All he could do was catch and shoot.

Man, you have a very selective, biased and inaccurate memory. Those Bickerstaff coached Seattle teams that featured Dale Ellis, Tom Chambers and Xavier McDaniel were some of the very few teams in NBA history that had three players average over 20ppg. It wasn't a one man team as you claim. It was a high scoring team with three dominant scorers that all averaged over 20ppg.

Ray Allen. Before that as a player, his offense went through Shawn Kemp, and Dale Ellis before that, when the Head Coach was Bernie Bickerstaff. Most of McMillan's Sonic teams heavily counted on one guy to score.

Again highly inaccurate. First, Nate NEVER coached Kemp in Seattle. That was Paul Westphal and George Karl. Kemp had been traded to Cleveland for Vin Baker three and a half seasons before Nate became Sonics coach. And even when Kemp was there, he never averaged 20ppg and rarely lead the team in scoring. The offense ran through Gary Payton and both Payton and Detlef Schremph scored as much, or often more than Kemp. Kemp got many of his points off alley oops and fast breaks courtesy of Gary Payton. He was not their "go to guy" and the offense did not run through him. Those Karl and Wesphal coached Sonics teams rarely had any player average over 20ppg, but usually had three, or four players average between 15 and 20ppg. They had very balanced scoring and were never dependent on a single guy to generate their offense. Which is irrelevant anyway, since Nate was not the coach of those teams.

BNM

 

[jlprk]

Man, you have a very selective, biased and inaccurate memory. Those Bickerstaff coached Seattle teams that featured Dale Ellis, Tom Chambers and Xavier McDaniel

I was thinking of all 3 names as I wrote, and didn't forget them at all. Dale Ellis was the superweapon of the team. For example, when old pro John Lucas was a new Sonic FA, he realized what a "weapon" (Lucas' word) the great shooting Ellis was. A reporter questioned the strategy because of Chambers and McDaniel, and Lucas replied forcefully that like starter McMillan, his main job was to get the ball to Ellis. The offense looked for Ellis first, with Chambers and X as secondary options. Most fans questioned Bernie's wisdom of that, so it struck me and I remembered it.
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Ray Allen. Before that as a player, his offense went through Shawn Kemp, and Dale Ellis before that

Again highly inaccurate. First, Nate NEVER coached Kemp in Seattle. That was Paul Westphal and George Karl...Which is irrelevant anyway, since Nate was not the coach of those teams.

Man, are you a selective reader. How could you miss "Before that as a player." I clearly said that when McMillan coached the Sonics, Allen was the main man, and before that when McMillan was a Sonic player, Nate played in an offense with Kemp as the main guy, and Ellis the main guy a few years before Kemp. You wasted 10 minutes writing about your reading incomprehension, and I wasted 10 minutes cutting and pasting my quote and writing an answer.
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And even when Kemp was there, he never averaged 20ppg and rarely lead the team in scoring.

As for Kemp's teammates getting almost as many points as him, and sometimes a few more points with him a close second, I addressed that in my previous three posts. You might have missed one, or two, but all three?

Just like Aldridge averaged almost as many points as Roy, but we all knew who was top dog in the last clutch minutes.

For a typical game, the aftergame stats appeared balanced, because Kemp was on the bench in foul trouble a third of the game.

the opponent had to focus on him, freeing his teammates to get stats almost equal to his, so the illusion is that he wasn't the big wheel.

 

[jlprk]

And even when Kemp was there, he never averaged 20ppg and rarely lead the team in scoring. The offense ran through Gary Payton and both Payton and Detlef Schremph scored as much, or often more than Kemp. Kemp got many of his points off alley oops and fast breaks courtesy of Gary Payton. He was not their "go to guy" and the offense did not run through him. Those Karl and Wesphal coached Sonics teams rarely had any player average over 20ppg, but usually had three, or four players average between 15 and 20ppg. They had very balanced scoring and were never dependent on a single guy to generate their offense.

I hate being dragged into an analysis of stats, instead of going by actual observation.

You say the stats were decentralized, then you say Kemp wasn't the leading scorer enough years. Well, as decentralization would indicate, he was a close second when he didn't lead the team. But as I said repeatedly, without him drawing the defense, others wouldn't have gotten their points. Here are the annual team leaders, as if it matters.

year... reb... PER...... points. Win Share..results

89-90 Cage. Ellis....... Ellis... Cage
90-91 Kemp Johnson McKey McKey
91-92 Kemp Kemp.... Pierce. Pierce
92-93 Kemp Kemp.... Pierce. Kemp..... Conference Finals
93-94 Kemp Kemp.... Kemp. Kemp
94-95 Kemp Kemp.... Payton Schrempf
95-96 Kemp Kemp.... Kemp.. Payton... NBA Finals
96-97 Kemp Payton... Payton Payton

He was a Sonic 8 years straight out of high school (1989-97), and led them in rebounds the last 7 years. He led them in PER 5 years (1991-96). He led them in win share 2 years (92-94) and was a close second other years. He led them in points 2 years (93-94 and 95-96) and was a close second other years. In summary, he was the dominant force in the last 6 of his 8 years there.

 

[jlprk]

Kemp did all that while leading in minutes per game only one season, and that season was only 33 mpg. As I said, this was because he was often in foul trouble. My chart should have included a column for team leader in mpg.

89-90 Ellis
90-91 McDaniel
91-92 Pierce
92-93 Kemp
93-94 Payton
94-95 Payton
95-96 Payton
96-97 Payton

Therefore, if my chart had displayed stats per minute instead of per game, he would have led even more times than my chart shows. But again, you're the one who made this all about stats. Kemp was the superstar and his teammates played off of him, sometimes out-statting him, so what. He was the most raw-talented forward of his decade, though not the most effective, because of foul trouble due to not learning moves and relying upon his athleticism.