Gun Control - Discuss

[MARIS61]

Here's some reasons to fear it:

http://www.govtrack.us/special/hr45mixedink.xpd

* In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. This doesn't include the 30 million "Uncle Joe" starved to death in the Ukraine.

* In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

* Germany established gun control in 1928. In 1938, the Nazis extended that control to ban the possession of military style weapons and to outlaw the sale of any weapons without government approval. (This sounds a lot like some of the current gun control efforts being pushed for in our country today.) From 1939 to 1945, the Gestapo & SS killed millions of people unable to defend themselves.

* China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up & exterminated.

* Guatamala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up & exterminated.

* Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up & exterminated. The total dead are said to be 2-3 million.

* Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, 1-2 million "educated" people unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

* Defenseless people rounded up & exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million at a bare minimum.

* During W.W. II the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED.

Note: Admiral Yamamoto, who crafted the attack on Pearl Harbor, had attended Harvard University from 1919 to 1921 and was a Naval Attache to the U.S. from 1925-28. Most of our Navy was destroyed at Pearl Harbor, and our Army had been deprived of funding and was ill prepared to defend the country. It was reported that when asked why Japan did not follow up the Pearl Harbor attack with an invasion of the U.S. Mainland, his reply was that he had lived in the U.S. and knew that almost all households had guns.

* Gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results: Australia-wide, homicides went up 3.2 percent; Australia-wide, assaults went up 8.6 percent; Australia-wide, armed robberies went up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent). While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady DECREASE in armed robbery with firearms, that changed drastically upward in the first year after gun confiscation... since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed; There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults on the Elderly. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort & expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns.

I am a gun owner, 100% against gun control.

I am an avid hunter, but that's not the reason I own guns.

I am also anti-war, and have never shot anyone, accidentally or otherwise.

Quite seriously, I've NEVER heard an intelligently presented arguement in support of gun control.

Got one?

If so, take your best shot.

 

[bodyman5001]

Nope, unless you consider intelligent people presenting emotionally based arguments as such.

By the way, I skimmed the post and don't know the truth behind those claims so don't make fun of me if they are bullshit. I wouldn't know.

 

[Denny Crane]

gun control is a firm grip.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I don't own a gun, but I've toyed with the idea of my wife having a shotgun around that she can point and shoot while I'm not around.

I think regulation is a big step. We need licenses to drive cars, vote, etc...but you can go down to Cabela's and pick up something that's express purpose for being built is to kill something, and you don't even take a written test--much less a safety course. I'm for Gun Owner's Safety (iirc, the NRA has classes like this, right?) and inability for violent convicts to purchase, carry or own.

 

[maxiep]

My grandfather taught me how to hunt, but before I ever looked down the sights of a shotgun, he taught me gun safety. Learning how to safely operate a gun is an important skill IMO. Too many people get ahold of these things and have no idea how to handle them.

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

I'll never own a gun. I've got a short fuse and would probably use it stupidly.

 

[maxiep]

BTW, if you own a pistol and live in an apartment, use hollow point bullets. Otherwise, you run the risk of injuring someone in the next apartment if you have to fire it. My buddy in Houston learned that lesson the hard way. Luckily, he missed his neighbor.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Odd that there was a story today up here about something like this.

19y/o kid comes outside one night to see a bunch of guys breaking in his car. Instead of calling 911, he goes inside to get his bolt-action rifle, and as the thieves see him come out, they start running. He takes one of them down with a head shot (either an impressive display of skill--hitting a guy running away from you in his bobbing head--or a miss that hit the perp instead of some old lady), and then waits for the police to arrive. Plead to a 2nd-degree manslaughter, b/c the DA thought there was a chance the kid would be found not-guilty by a jury when he said "I feared for my life".

 

[MrSelfDestruct]

I don't own a gun, but I've toyed with the idea of my wife having a shotgun around that she can point and shoot while I'm not around.

I think regulation is a big step. We need licenses to drive cars, vote, etc...but you can go down to Cabela's and pick up something that's express purpose for being built is to kill something, and you don't even take a written test--much less a safety course. I'm for Gun Owner's Safety (iirc, the NRA has classes like this, right?) and inability for violent convicts to purchase, carry or own.

You fill out paperwork when purchasing a firearm asking if you have ever been convicted of a felony and there is a background check done. Also, with handguns (here in WA) there is a three day waiting period for receipt after purchase.

Granted, that does nothing for safe gun handling, but it's not like you can just go buy a gun like you can groceries.

 

[CelticKing]

You listed all those countries and same thing happened in Balkans during 60s and 70s, the Yugoslav govt made it illeagal to own arms, (even if you were a former military person), and what you got was thousands being killed during 90s not having anything to defend themselves.

I am a gun owner, 100% against gun control.

Not a gun owner yet, hopefully soon lol, but 110% against gun control.

 

[hasoos]

The only gun control I am in favor of us stuff like no guns in schools, entertainment venues, etc. People kill people. If they don't use guns, they will figure out something else to use.

As for the guy up above who pulled out his hunting rifle and shot the guy i the back, you have to know the laws. You can't shoot folks running away from you in the back, that is a crime. They aren't a "threat" at that point, so lethal force is not warranted.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think the biggest misconception of gun control is that it will keep guns out of the hands of bad people. In reality, gun control only keeps guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens.

 

[MrSelfDestruct]

I think the biggest misconception of gun control is that it will keep guns out of the hands of bad people. In reality, gun control only keeps guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens.

Bingo!

 

[hasoos]

While I do not advocate gun control, one thing I would point out about Maris post. Most of those bad things would have still happened had gun control been present or not. The Soviets fought a civil war with both sides amptly armed. Most of those situations would have required an organized force to deal with the "bad guys" who were doing bad stuff. Not all of them. But a lot of them.

 

[Paxil]

Guns are as american as apple pie and baseball... and I doubt that will ever change. Personally, I know two people (father and friend) who were shot by accident... but know no one who has ever used one for self defense. Small sampling... but with three kids I wouldn't keep a gun in the house. I think risk of accident outweighs any defense value.

 

[zєяσ]

Fuck guns.

Give me a shark with a freaking laser beam attached to its freaking head!

 

[MrJayremmie]

I think regulation is a big step. We need licenses to drive cars, vote, etc...but you can go down to Cabela's and pick up something that's express purpose for being built is to kill something, and you don't even take a written test--much less a safety course. I'm for Gun Owner's Safety (iirc, the NRA has classes like this, right?) and inability for violent convicts to purchase, carry or own.

I think the biggest misconception of gun control is that it will keep guns out of the hands of bad people. In reality, gun control only keeps guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens.

Give me a shark with a freaking laser beam attached to its freaking head!

+1 to all three (so +3 total). Well said.

 

[mook]

Do you think 7 year olds should be able to handle fire arms?

Do you think it should be legal to buy and sell surface to air missiles?

Fully automatic machine guns?

Cannons?

Obviously, nearly every rational person believes in gun control, including most of the people here. The question is to what extent. It's a matter of balancing personal freedom versus public safety.

I'm an avid hunter and I own 10 guns (all rifles or shotguns). I'm not a big fan of handguns. It's too easy to waive one about in the wrong direction, and next thing you know you've shot Marvin in the face.

I don't have any issue with required registration of firearms. It'd make it a lot easier to track bad guys and enforce criminal law, much like care license plates do.

Would criminals often just use unregistered weapons? Definitely. Certainly the smart ones. Just like smart criminals use stolen license plates/cars as transportation for committing crime. But let's face it--there are also a lot of dumb criminals. We might as well catch them at least.

I think it's delusional to think that if our government sunk into despotism that me and my 12 gauge would stand a snowball's chance in hell against an Abrams tank. Or a chemical weapon. (If you really worry Obama is going to come for you, buy gas masks. You can level entire cities with Anthrax. Much tidier and efficient.) The trick is to prevent government from sinking into despotism in the first place by being a politically active citizen.

 

[mook]

I think the biggest misconception of gun control is that it will keep guns out of the hands of bad people. In reality, gun control only keeps guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens.

You are clearly wrong. At least if you mean to say "in every case."

How come you don't hear much about insane people shooting down airplanes with surface-to-air missiles in the US? The manufacture and distribution of those weapons are regulated by the government. Clearly an instance where bad people don't get them and good people don't get them.

Government can pretty effectively regulate guns, both legal and illegal. Many countries don't have nearly the plethora of illegal firearms we have in the US.

Note: I'm not saying I'd like to see our government outlaw guns. I don't. I'm just saying that if we wanted it to, it probably could do a pretty decent job of it.

 

[Paxil]

Yeah... most criminals are pretty dumb... and it seems most are bad drivers too since they seem to only get caught during traffic stops. Mental note... if I become a criminal... I shalt not drive.

 

[bluefrog]

My grandfather taught me how to hunt, but before I ever looked down the sights of a shotgun, he taught me gun safety. Learning how to safely operate a gun is an important skill IMO. Too many people get ahold of these things and have no idea how to handle them.

Agreed. I know two people who shot themselves on accident. I don't know why we don't have a mandatory safety class for firearms.

As far as home protection, i've heard a dog is just as effective but I haven't seen any stats or official investigations on the matter.

Guns are freakin' cool though. I've never owned one but they are fun as hell to shoot

 

[mook]

Guns are freakin' cool though. I've never owned one but they are fun as hell to shoot

Yeah, when you cut through all the bullshit about defending ourselves from criminals/terrorists/Obama/whatever, for most people it really boils down to "guns are fun" and "I want to shoot animals with them."

And really, those are damned good reasons to me. I'm all about shooting guns and killing stuff to eat. I'm getting ready for deer season here myself!

I just don't see why we've got to dress it up with a bunch of nearly religious talk about the second amendment.

For example, a lot of people have a shitload of fun having premarital, consensual sex. Nobody needs to wax poetic about how it's a constitutional right or anything. They just go out and fuck. I did too when I was single. I liked it.

Meh, I'm probably over-simplifying it. I just think a lot of NRA-types (including members of my own family) go a little crazy about gun rights.

 

[Natebishop3]

You are clearly wrong. At least if you mean to say "in every case."

How come you don't hear much about insane people shooting down airplanes with surface-to-air missiles in the US? The manufacture and distribution of those weapons are regulated by the government. Clearly an instance where bad people don't get them and good people don't get them.

Government can pretty effectively regulate guns, both legal and illegal. Many countries don't have nearly the plethora of illegal firearms we have in the US.

Note: I'm not saying I'd like to see our government outlaw guns. I don't. I'm just saying that if we wanted it to, it probably could do a pretty decent job of it.

Come on Mook.... SAM's are a terrible analogy.

Guns have been manufactured and used for hundreds of years. There are millions of guns in the US, probably billions of guns in the world. Guns have been owned by private parties since the beginning of colonization. How many SAM's have been produced in this country? How many are owned by private parties?

The point is, if the US government decided to outlaw guns, the only people it would affect would be law abiding citizens. Criminals would still be able to obtain them. Maybe not as easily but it could still be done. I also suspect a large portion of firearms would end up buried in the back yard, or stowed away in the basement.

The abolition of firearms in this country would be a near impossible task. We can't even stop the flow of drugs and illegal immigration into this country, what makes you think we could ever stop guns?

 

[hasoos]

Do you think 7 year olds should be able to handle fire arms?

Do you think it should be legal to buy and sell surface to air missiles?

Fully automatic machine guns?

Cannons?

Obviously, nearly every rational person believes in gun control, including most of the people here. The question is to what extent. It's a matter of balancing personal freedom versus public safety.

I'm an avid hunter and I own 10 guns (all rifles or shotguns). I'm not a big fan of handguns. It's too easy to waive one about in the wrong direction, and next thing you know you've shot Marvin in the face.

I don't have any issue with required registration of firearms. It'd make it a lot easier to track bad guys and enforce criminal law, much like care license plates do.

Would criminals often just use unregistered weapons? Definitely. Certainly the smart ones. Just like smart criminals use stolen license plates/cars as transportation for committing crime. But let's face it--there are also a lot of dumb criminals. We might as well catch them at least.

I think it's delusional to think that if our government sunk into despotism that me and my 12 gauge would stand a snowball's chance in hell against an Abrams tank. Or a chemical weapon. (If you really worry Obama is going to come for you, buy gas masks. You can level entire cities with Anthrax. Much tidier and efficient.) The trick is to prevent government from sinking into despotism in the first place by being a politically active citizen.

1. I think that 7 year olds parents should be making that decision, not a law. Chances are if the parents are making bad decision, a law won't make a difference anyhow.

2. There is a reason the devices you list above are called cannons and anti aircraft missiles. In fact they are also already regulated, so you are beating a dead horse.

3. You are correct, your rifle would make little difference between a government crackdown. Unless you are really smart.

 

[mook]

Come on Mook.... SAM's are a terrible analogy.

Guns have been manufactured and used for hundreds of years.

There have been rockets around for quite a while too. "The rockets red glare/bombs bursting in air"....

There are millions of guns in the US, probably billions of guns in the world. Guns have been owned by private parties since the beginning of colonization. How many SAM's have been produced in this country? How many are owned by private parties?

Very few have been made, relatively speaking. Why not? Certainly not because of a lack of market demand. I know I sure as hell would get a kick out of firing one of those puppies.

The reason they aren't owned by private parties is....wait for it....government regulation.

The point is, if the US government decided to outlaw guns, the only people it would affect would be law abiding citizens.

See, I find this argument absolutely disingenuous. It makes it seem that ALL criminals are Hannibal Lecter-esque brilliant masterminds.

A lot of criminals are dumb as fuck.

A lot of crimes happen spontaneously. A guy has no money and gets drunk. He has a gun in his house used for normal home protection. He decides on a whim to rob the local liquor store. You can't tell me that such instance don't happen all the time. Or that they'd happen just as often because the drunk guy will slur out the five necessary illicit conversations needed to execute the purchase of an illegal gun and then still be drunk enough to think the robbery was a good idea.

Tons of crimes happen every year with perfectly legal weapons. It's just not an honest argument to say that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them would happen if guns were illegal. They wouldn't. We all know that. It's dumb to pretend that wouldn't be the case.

It's true that a lot of crimes would still happen. But it's just not believable that every single crime committed today with a legal gun would be committed if guns were outlawed.

The abolition of firearms in this country would be a near impossible task. We can't even stop the flow of drugs and illegal immigration into this country, what makes you think we could ever stop guns?

If the government wanted to, it could. Maybe not absolutely, but it could eliminate 99% of them. Just like it could stop illegal immigration or drugs. The thing is that we've never really given the government the resources it'd really take to do those things. Quadruple the number of police officers. Devote 20 times the manpower we do now to our borders. Become more and more intrusive, to the point where you have a literal 1984-type state.

It could get really, really spooky. I certainly wouldn't advocate it. But it could certainly be done. And if you don't think it would work, you ought to read 1984 again.

Anyway, my point isn't that we should outlaw guns. We could, but I like them. I don't want to. Besides, it isn't worth it.

My point is that guns are fun and hunting is fun. They can still be just as fun if we register them like we do cars. In the process of doing so, we'd definitely stop some crimes along the way. That's a tradeoff I can live with.

 

[mook]

1. I think that 7 year olds parents should be making that decision, not a law. Chances are if the parents are making bad decision, a law won't make a difference anyhow.

So if a cop sees a 7 year old holding a pistol, you think it's the cop's job to ask the parents if that's ok? Yikes. I guess we just disagree on that one.

2. There is a reason the devices you list above are called cannons and anti aircraft missiles. In fact they are also already regulated, so you are beating a dead horse.

Yes they are regulated. My point is: Why?
The obvious answer is that because it's worth regulating the rights of an individual to shoot them for the safety of the greater good. I don't think anybody disputes this.

We should use this same measure in evaluating any weapon that can harm lots of people. We don't need to take the weapons away, necessarily, but we should regulate them.

 

[rocketeer]

It's true that a lot of crimes would still happen. But it's just not believable that every single crime committed today with a legal gun would be committed if guns were outlawed.

i don't think that's what he said at all.

he said this

The point is, if the US government decided to outlaw guns, the only people it would affect would be law abiding citizens. Criminals would still be able to obtain them.

that doesn't say anything about every crime being committed. it says that if the government outlaws guns, the law abiding citizens would give up guns while criminals would still get them(though technically that would have to be true as anyone who kept a gun would in turn be breaking the law).

 

[Eastoff]

I am okay with bolt action rifles, and that's about it. (for hunting) If you want to keep your guns in a militia, I'd be alright with that too. I am strongly against rapid fire weapons and hand guns. But I doubt this is a surprise to anyone. ;]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/04/21/weekinreview/0422marsh.1270.1060.jpg

gun deaths are about 4 per 100,000 in the us

 

[MrSelfDestruct]

I am okay with bolt action rifles, and that's about it. (for hunting) If you want to keep your guns in a militia, I'd be alright with that too. I am strongly against rapid fire weapons and hand guns. But I doubt this is a surprise to anyone. ;]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/04/21/weekinreview/0422marsh.1270.1060.jpg

gun deaths are about 4 per 100,000 in the us

What makes Bolt action rifles ok, but semi-auto (which I'm assuming you're talking about when you say rapid fire) rifles or handguns not? How about shotguns?

In that graph, all it states is homicide rates, not gun related homicides. Also note, the data is from 1997, around the time all hell was breaking loose in the Balkans, which I'm sure skews the data some.

 

[MARIS61]

Do you think 7 year olds should be able to handle fire arms?

Yes, I did, and so did my sons.

Do you think it should be legal to buy and sell surface to air missiles?

Wrong thread. This about gun control.

Fully automatic machine guns?

Of course.

Cannons?

Why not, they're legal now.

Obviously, nearly every rational person believes in gun control, including most of the people here. The question is to what extent. It's a matter of balancing personal freedom versus public safety.

I'm an avid hunter and I own 10 guns (all rifles or shotguns). I'm not a big fan of handguns. It's too easy to waive one about in the wrong direction, and next thing you know you've shot Marvin in the face.

I hope you don't hunt near me, and I'd suggest a Hunter's safety course if that's what you think about handguns.

I don't have any issue with required registration of firearms. It'd make it a lot easier to track bad guys and enforce criminal law, much like care license plates do.

Actually it wouldn't, but it would make it a lot easier to throw successful military coups, the primary reason for the 2nd Amendment.

Would criminals often just use unregistered weapons? Definitely. Certainly the smart ones. Just like smart criminals use stolen license plates/cars as transportation for committing crime. But let's face it--there are also a lot of dumb criminals. We might as well catch them at least.

Criminals do not register guns, or use guns registered to them. Not even the dumb ones.

I think it's delusional to think that if our government sunk into despotism that me and my 12 gauge would stand a snowball's chance in hell against an Abrams tank. Or a chemical weapon. (If you really worry Obama is going to come for you, buy gas masks. You can level entire cities with Anthrax. Much tidier and efficient.) The trick is to prevent government from sinking into despotism in the first place by being a politically active citizen.

It's delusional to think that a military coup would involve a tank at each doorstep in America. How many tanks does the US have?

And it's silly to say citizens armed with rifles, shotguns and pistols are no match for the biggest miltary on Earth.

I'd say Iraqi citizens have already proven they are.