hahaha Bush says he doesn't believe in the Bible, does believe in evolution

[BrianFromWA]

I don't think that's true. I think most rational people accept that the enemy is going to do whatever the enemy is going to do, and protesting against that is completely futile, because we don't, by definition, control them. On the other hand, we can change what we ourselves do, and we can be better.

barfo

In your opinion, do you think we're better than we were 25, 50, 100, 200 years ago? I'm not saying we're perfect, because we draw our military from all manners of society and there will be someone that falls through the cracks. They are, by and large, punished when that happens. Is our military one that you are more or less proud of than, say 10, 20 or 50 years ago?

 

[Minstrel]

I think that those who think that humans are, by nature, good generally think that there should be looser laws and more personal freedoms to follow their right to happiness. I think those that think humans are by nature sinful (like I do) feel that regulation of things that are told to us in our theology are "bad for the common welfare" or "against the teachings of whichever Imaginary Friend" is more appropriate, while still allowing each to "pursue happiness".

Unfortunately, this is where things hit a basically irreconcilable wall. You base "good" and "bad" on "sin"...which has a major faith-based component. Obviously, some of the sins are rational (in terms of social coherence)...like injunctions against murder or theft. However, when it comes to things like homosexuality, there's no rationality behind it...it simply boils down to "Because God says so." There's nothing I can say, because you feel all people should be reigned in according to "God's word," and since "God's word" isn't based in rationality, there can be no rational arguments that will sway you or other Christians.

Unfortunately for those who aren't Christians and believe in a rational standpoint for laws, we just have to wait for a majority of the populous to either not be Christian, or not feel the need to legislate Christianity.

 

[Minstrel]

But I do think that what Jesus taught was so far away from the worldview of the time that it would meet the 2nd question you had.

It wasn't unique at the time, though. Buddha had promulgated such teachings of understanding and love 400-500 years earlier.

In addition, much of the OT (after Kings) talks about how prophets of God wanted the Kings to follow a different way, to not lean on their own understandings. To stop at Joshua, and base the suspicion on that, seems to pick and choose.

I'm not sure how that contradicts what I said, though. There's little in the Bible that seems ahead of its time. Further, why would picking and choosing be inappropriate? It's all supposed to be God. God acting, at times, in accordance to human ethics of the time, in such an awful way that such actions could be confused with the modern "incarnation of evil" in Hitler, is a bit eye-opening, isn't it?

 

[barfo]

In your opinion, do you think we're better than we were 25, 50, 100, 200 years ago? I'm not saying we're perfect, because we draw our military from all manners of society and there will be someone that falls through the cracks. They are, by and large, punished when that happens. Is our military one that you are more or less proud of than, say 10, 20 or 50 years ago?

I don't think I'm really qualified to answer that question in a useful way. I'm old, but I'm not so old that I really have a broad view of how the military has changed over so many years - and I'm neither a historian nor do I have any special insight into military matters. My uninformed sense is that the current military is, at least, no less professional than it has been at other points in my lifetime.

barfo

 

[BrianFromWA]

You have good points. I'd like to continue discussing them, but I'm falling asleep at the computer and don't want to type something stupid. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Denny Crane]

Still waiting for your examples. Prove 10% of Leviticus still applies to humanity today. And show me somewhere in the bible that says what parts of Leviticus humanity is still supposed to follow I'd love it.

Prove 90% doesn't. It seems to be the thing YOU want to prove, so do it.