OT Hard to have a debate when the information is being skewed

[Natebishop3]

well this won't get much support but people playing games that are about killing people for hours on end to win the game in front of a screen.....bit different from when I went rabbit hunting in the fields as a kid....

I think kids have definitely been desensitized because of games, movies, television.

I think we have seen an extreme growth of prescription drugs with kids in the past 20 years, and it's continuing to grow. I read somewhere that 90% of the shooters were on some kind of anti-depressant.

The internet and social media has changed our society in ways that we're only starting to understand.

My only point is that guns have been around for a long time. School shootings have been occurring for a long time as well, but not of this magnitude. So I just have a hard time understanding why we're not looking for the root cause of these shootings, instead of just laying the blame on the guns. It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[riverman]

Why aren't we looking at what HAS changed and not what HASN'T changed?

I have pointed out one country that doesn't have the problems we have with this sort of violence....someone else pointed out Australia has successfully changed direction with gun laws....what happens then is a barrage liberal insults....then..the conversation is dead....somebody tried to link escalation in suicides to Australia's gun laws....fact....folks don't want to talk about it...they want to talk at each other

 

[Shaboid]

Keep digging. Education Weekly counts just 7, not the 18 the media was claiming yesterday.



https://www.edweek.org/ew/section/multimedia/school-shootings-this-year-how-many-and-where.html

View attachment 18699

http://abcnews.go.com/US/18-school-shootings-us-year-group/story?id=53091125

Advocacy group highlights 18 cases of gunfire at US schools so far this year

Make that 19

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...fter-florida-shooting/?utm_term=.caa2307ff5be

Another Broward County school, North Broward Preparatory School, was put on lockdown after a teacher sent a text message that said she thought she heard shots, according to Fox affiliate WSVN. Police went classroom to classroom conducting a search, then lifted the lockdown and reported a false alarm. While responding to the incident, a Broward sheriff’s deputy accidentally shot himself in the leg, according to ABC affiliate WPLG.

 

[riverman]

why we're not looking for the root cause of these shootings,

rage....that's the root cause...why rage...that's a complex sociological problem. Mental illness is also there but I think rage is the biggest issue.

 

[Natebishop3]

I have pointed out one country that doesn't have the problems we have with this sort of violence....someone else pointed out Australia has successfully changed direction with gun laws....what happens then is a barrage liberal insults....then..the conversation is dead....somebody tried to link escalation in suicides to Australia's gun laws....fact....folks don't want to talk about it...they want to talk at each other

To me, this is like blindly prescribing the same medication without actually looking at the symptoms of an illness.

One glaring example - "The most dramatic of these was a buyback program in which the government purchased and destroyed more than 600,000 long guns, nearly halving the number of gun-owning households in the country."
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...top_mass_shootings_in_australia_probably.html

Then we have the US, "According to the Congressional Research Service, there are roughly twice as manyguns per capita in the United States as there were in 1968: more than 300 million guns in all."
https://www.npr.org/2016/01/05/462017461/guns-in-america-by-the-numbers

That was in 2015, so there's probably at least another 30-40 million guns on top of that number. From that link, manufacturing has doubled in recent years to 11 million guns produced in 2013. So implementing legislation similar to Australia simply is not realistic. If they only had 1.2 million guns in their country when they instituted that ban, that's not even 1% of the number of guns in the US. Think about that. Guns are a HUGE part of the culture here. To remove guns is, in my opinion, impossible. No database exists that lists who owns what, and where they can be found.

It's an impossible task. The only thing you can restrict is the sale of future guns. That's that only realistic change you can make. But that doesn't get the ones that are already out there off the streets.

 

[Hobbesarable]

rage....that's the root cause...why rage...that's a complex sociological problem. Mental illness is also there but I think rage is the biggest issue.

Parental upbringing or lack thereof fits in this puzzle.

 

[Natebishop3]

rage....that's the root cause...why rage...that's a complex sociological problem. Mental illness is also there but I think rage is the biggest issue.

I think plenty of people have gone through moments of rage. So what is it about these people specifically that puts them over the top?

 

[barfo]

So implementing legislation similar to Australia simply is not realistic. If they only had 1.2 million guns in their country when they instituted that ban, that's not even 1% of the number of guns in the US. Think about that. Guns are a HUGE part of the culture here. To remove guns is, in my opinion, impossible. No database exists that lists who owns what, and where they can be found.

It's an impossible task. The only thing you can restrict is the sale of future guns. That's that only realistic change you can make. But that doesn't get the ones that are already out there off the streets.

It's not impossible. It might or might not be a good idea, it certainly would be difficult, but it's far from impossible.

Note Australia didn't get rid of all guns. They got rid of some of them. We don't have to get rid of every single gun to make a difference.

If we can put a man on the moon, if we can elect a complete ignoramus President, we can collect and destroy guns. If we decide we want to.

barfo

 

[Natebishop3]

It's not impossible. It might or might not be a good idea, it certainly would be difficult, but it's far from impossible.

Note Australia didn't get rid of all guns. They got rid of some of them. We don't have to get rid of every single gun to make a difference.

If we can put a man on the moon, if we can elect a complete ignoramus President, we can collect and destroy guns. If we decide we want to.

barfo

If the goal is to copy Australia, that means you need to remove roughly 150 million guns from circulation. The amount of money, man power, and cooperation from Federal, state, and local agencies that would be required to remove 150 million guns from circulation is, in my opinion, impossible. It's not going to happen. You'll never get the kind of backing from the government to do it. Our government has never shown the ability to remove anything from society. They couldn't do it with alcohol during prohibition. They can't do it with drugs like cocaine, meth, or marijuana.

Putting a man on the moon is childs play compared to trying to control something, like drugs, alcohol, or firearms.

 

[barfo]

If the goal is to copy Australia, that means you need to remove roughly 150 million guns from circulation. The amount of money, man power, and cooperation from Federal, state, and local agencies that would be required to remove 150 million guns from circulation is, in my opinion, impossible. It's not going to happen. You'll never get the kind of backing from the government to do it. Our government has never shown the ability to remove anything from society. They couldn't do it with alcohol during prohibition. They can't do it with drugs like cocaine, meth, or marijuana.

Putting a man on the moon is childs play compared to trying to control something, like drugs, alcohol, or firearms.

I think your definition of 'impossible' is 'we don't want to very badly'.

barfo

 

[Natebishop3]

I think your definition of 'impossible' is 'we don't want to very badly'.

barfo

Okay. So why hasn't the war on drugs worked?

According to this article, we have spent $1 trillion dollars on the War on Drugs.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/opinion/branson-end-war-on-drugs/index.html

We outlawed the drugs. We convict people who use and/or sell drugs.

Has that effort not worked because we just "didn't want to very badly?"

 

[Rastapopoulos]

If you want to stop school shootings, provide security at the schools. Like the TSA does for airports.

Common sense solution.

Yeah, that's why the rest of the world has no school shootings - they all have schools that look like American airports.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

If we outlaw flamethrowers, then only outlaws will have flamethrowers!

There's no point in banning smoking in public places, nobody will go for it!

Oh what's the point? Arguing about this shit never convinces anyone. Progress only happens generationally. And thankfully, judging by all the kids from the Florida highschool speaking up, the NRA's days are numbered.

 

[barfo]

Okay. So why hasn't the war on drugs worked?

According to this article, we have spent $1 trillion dollars on the War on Drugs.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/opinion/branson-end-war-on-drugs/index.html

We outlawed the drugs. We convict people who use and/or sell drugs.

Has that effort not worked because we just "didn't want to very badly?"

Yes, definitely. And for other reasons too.

What percentage of the population was willing to buy and use illegal drugs? A pretty big percentage.

What percentage of the population would be willing to buy and use illegal guns? Probably a much smaller percentage.

barfo

 

[Natebishop3]

Yeah, that's why the rest of the world has no school shootings - they all have schools that look like American airports.

The rest of the world isn't the United States. The magnitude of gun ownership in the US dwarfs any other country.

I already cited that Australia was able to collect 600,000 guns, which was roughly half the guns in the country at that time.

According to this, England estimated that there was 187,000 handguns in public hands, and they collected 162,000. It's just a completely different problem when you consider the number of guns in America. It's not going to be as easy to achieve.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/04/world/gun-control-uk-australia/index.html
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/9507.htm

 

[Natebishop3]

What percentage of the population would be willing to buy and use illegal guns? Probably a much smaller percentage.

It's not necessarily about buying illegal guns, as it would be about hiding guns they already own. I think you'd be surprised, or maybe you wouldn't, with how many people consider the second amendment the line in the sand with the government.

 

[Natebishop3]

If we outlaw flamethrowers, then only outlaws will have flamethrowers!

There's no point in banning smoking in public places, nobody will go for it!

Oh what's the point? Arguing about this shit never convinces anyone. Progress only happens generationally. And thankfully, judging by all the kids from the Florida highschool speaking up, the NRA's days are numbered.

Congratulations on being the first person to post hyperbole! I think people are having a nice discussion in this thread. Nobody is insulting anyone.

 

[calvin natt]

But that's really my point. Guns have been around for a long time. By your own admission.

So why suddenly in the past 20 years are kids shooting up schools? Guns aren't new. Schools aren't new. Bullying isn't new.

So what changed? Why aren't we looking at what HAS changed and not what HASN'T changed?

Media attention. Stop covering the school shootings for let’s say three years and i guarantee you it slows way down. But in the meantime I want gun reform.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html?smid=fb-share

 

[Natebishop3]

Media attention. Stop covering the school shootings for let’s say three years and i guarantee you it slows way down. But in the meantime I want gun reform.

Sadly, I don't think the media will ever stop, and those shootings continue to get the attention that these people are looking for. We still talk about Columbine, we still talk about Sandy Hook, we still talk about Aurora. I don't remember the names of the shooters, but I remember the names of the schools.

 

[Natebishop3]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html?smid=fb-share

I see a lot of the same stuff that have been discussed ad nauseam.

The parallel with regulations on cars isn't really applicable, in my opinion. Most of the changes that he mentions are aimed at making cars safer for the people riding in them. Seat belts. Better structural design. The changes to cars wasn't to prevent people from getting them, it was to make their use safer. Realistically, I would bet most guns don't get much use. The ones that I have are sitting in my closet and have been for the past few years. People don't typically buy a car and just put it in the garage for years. And if they did, they don't typically have to insure it. If it's just sitting in your garage, you don't need to register the car. You don't need to insure the car. You only need to do those things if you want to drive on public roads. Similarly, you have to take a class, apply, and get approved to carry a gun in public.

The problem with guns is not them failing. It's not a structural problem. They're working as intended. The problem is with the operators. If we were talking about taking cars away from people, in addition to making it harder to get a license, then the analogy would be a good one. Can you imagine banning cars and having to suddenly collect all the cars in America?

 

[barfo]

It's not necessarily about buying illegal guns, as it would be about hiding guns they already own. I think you'd be surprised, or maybe you wouldn't, with how many people consider the second amendment the line in the sand with the government.

I wouldn't be surprised, and I totally agree with you that we currently lack the collective will to do this. That doesn't make it impossible, but it does mean minds need to be changed first.

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

Yes, adding security would help at schools pending every student enters from one door. But that doesn't always happen, especially at high schools.
Which is a fine statement.

But this florida school shooting, nor the one up in Washington had nothing to do with gang violence. I bet I could keep going if I really wanted to....
These kids had no involvement in gangs.
Unless you're ready to call a white nationalist group a gang.(I'm not sure they should be qualified as such)

If they commit crimes as a group, they're a gang.

If they have common views that they peacefully support and discuss, they are lawful citizens and possibly a political party.

 

[barfo]

If they commit crimes as a group, they're a gang.

So you are saying the Trump administration is a gang?

They need a name. Maybe the BS-13 gang.

barfo

 

[riverman]

I read an article that said there are 88.9 guns to every 100 americans now.....that's more than Pakistan, Mexico or Gaza and the West Bank...we're armed to the teeth here....

 

[riverman]

Stephen King line comes to mind about guns....if you need more than ten rounds to defend yourself, you need to get back on the practice range

 

[MARIS61]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_secondary_schools

This is alist of attacks related to secondary schools that have occurred around the world. These are attacks that have occurred on school property or related primarily to school issues or events. A narrow definition of the word attacks is used for this list so as to exclude warfare, robberies, gang violence, ...

Huge increase during Obama years of fear-mongering, race-baiting and hate-America political agenda.

Dropped off significantly after Trump became President.

Canada, and many Euros about as prevalent per capita.

 

[MARIS61]

Stephen King line comes to mind about guns....if you need more than ten rounds to defend yourself, you need to get back on the practice range

Because our military only has 9 rounds total?

Stephen King is a moron.

 

[MARIS61]

Yeah, that's why the rest of the world has no school shootings - they all have schools that look like American airports.

The rest of the world has school shootings. And stabbings, bombings, acid-throwings...

 

[riverman]

I think plenty of people have gone through moments of rage. So what is it about these people specifically that puts them over the top?

Can be a myriad of things...diet...insomnia,,abuse...paranoia...depression..low self esteem...anger...hormonal imbalance...dementia..or simply 15 minutes of fame, suicide by law enforcement officer.....it's a long list. I worked with vets when I got back from war...some folks have stronger stomachs than others for horror....I would have made a good doctor on that side, not queasy about trauma or blood