Harping on the coaching style

[magnifier661]

I don't know if any of you have noticed, but all the players that left Portland, actually are doing much better on their new teams. Hell even Jack, who is still a turn over waiting to happen has better positive numbers. Does this mean our coach doesn't know how to run talent, or does it mean our stars suck the life out of the talent?

I think it's the first one. I honestly think Whitsett, err I mean KP is looking at those players he thought would do well here, fail and do well on other teams. As much as you may not think Nate is on the "Hot seat", I think he is. I think KP is not too happy watching players HE PICKED, and felt forced to trade, do well on other teams.

 

[SpanishFly]

I don't know if any of you have noticed, but all the players that left Portland, actually are doing much better on their new teams. Hell even Jack, who is still a turn over waiting to happen has better positive numbers. Does this mean our coach doesn't know how to run talent, or does it mean our stars suck the life out of the talent?

I think it's the first one. I honestly think Whitsett, err I mean KP is looking at those players he thought would do well here, fail and do well on other teams. As much as you may not think Nate is on the "Hot seat", I think he is. I think KP is not too happy watching players HE PICKED, and felt forced to trade, do well on other teams.

Interesting and IMO very valid question as Sergio and Frye are doing well, yes they are playing in vastly different systems then ours. Nash makes everyone have better stats, that is a given. Sergio is getting time and both apparently are relieved that "Nate's quick hook" if they make any mistake is gone, allowing them to relax and play better. It's ironic that Nate lets favorites like Blake play a ton of minutes when they are playing awful, yet Bayless who in my view has looked pretty good can hardly get minutes. Nate is a problem and may have taken this team as far as he can - time for a change? I am leaning to yes, especially if the next 10 games go badly.

 

[yakbladder]

I don't think he is...

Look, certain players fit into certain systems. Every fan has a favorite and some get despondent that the coach won't tailor the team and/or system around that player. But the fact is there are always going to be square pegs in a round hole. I'm sure Nate and KP wish them the best. As for Jack, how do you know he just isn't maturing into what will be his plateau? And Frye? It's like saying a hitter suddenly becomes an All-Star in baseball when they play in Denver. It's the system/environment that make the stats look good.

Go back and look historically and see the players who have left and improved. It's happened to more than just Nate as much as I'm sure that tears at you to hear that.

 

[magnifier661]

Interesting and IMO very valid question ass Sergio and Frye are doing well, yes they are playing in vastly different systems then ours. Nash makes everyone have better stats, that is a given. Sergio is getting time and both apparently are relieved that "Nate's quick hook" if they make any mistake is gone, allowing them to relax and play better. It's ironic that Nate lets favorites like Blake paly a ton of minutes when they are playing awful, yet Bayless who in my view has looked pretty good can hardly get minutes. Nate is a problem and may have taken this team as far as he can - time for a change? I am leaning to yes, especially if the next 10 games go badly.

Well he should be made accountable for this. Seriously, a team with this amount of talent, even without Outlaw and Batum, should be so much better than it is now. You can see the tension and tightness on all the players except for Oden (I find this the most ironic, since most the questions on this season was if Oden will turn things around).

 

[SpanishFly]

I don't think he is...

Look, certain players fit into certain systems. Every fan has a favorite and some get despondent that the coach won't tailor the team and/or system around that player. But the fact is there are always going to be square pegs in a round hole. I'm sure Nate and KP wish them the best. As for Jack, how do you know he just isn't maturing into what will be his plateau? And Frye? It's like saying a hitter suddenly becomes an All-Star in baseball when they play in Denver. It's the system/environment that make the stats look good.

Go back and look historically and see the players who have left and improved. It's happened to more than just Nate as much as I'm sure that tears at you to hear that.

Frankly, with the exception of Roy and Blake this team is made up of players built to run - especially LMA. We have a coach who constantly says he wants to run but we hardly ever do, and with Blakey and Roy playing so much how can we run consistently? A dilemma that should be addressed.

 

[magnifier661]

I don't think he is...

Look, certain players fit into certain systems. Every fan has a favorite and some get despondent that the coach won't tailor the team and/or system around that player. But the fact is there are always going to be square pegs in a round hole. I'm sure Nate and KP wish them the best. As for Jack, how do you know he just isn't maturing into what will be his plateau? And Frye? It's like saying a hitter suddenly becomes an All-Star in baseball when they play in Denver. It's the system/environment that make the stats look good.

Go back and look historically and see the players who have left and improved. It's happened to more than just Nate as much as I'm sure that tears at you to hear that.

It happened right here. Jerm left and became an all-star. And you have a valid point. But the only difference was on those teams they left, you would see decent numbers, then they explode in a different system. When Frye and Sergio were in Portland, they looked like YMCA dirt league players, then leave and be what we all suspected they would be when they arrived.

 

[RR7]

There's only so much time and so many shots on each team. If we allowed Jack, Frye and Sergio to thrive here, then we wouldn't have seen Roy thrive as much. Or Aldridge. Or Outlaw at times. Everyone keeps whining about Frye, but he is a rhythm player, who needs minutes to get going. That opportunity wasn't here. He was a bench player who got sporadic time, and he wasn't going to be effective in that role. And there's nothing Nate could have done baout that, unless you advocate benching LMA so Frye could flourish. But then Aldridge wouldn't flourish. How do you expect to have a team where 12 people are all flourishing? It doesn't happen. Players leave teams every year and get an opportunity elsewhere and produce. It's not an issue that their previous coach was an idiot.

 

[magnifier661]

There's only so much time and so many shots on each team. If we allowed Jack, Frye and Sergio to thrive here, then we wouldn't have seen Roy thrive as much. Or Aldridge. Or Outlaw at times. Everyone keeps whining about Frye, but he is a rhythm player, who needs minutes to get going. That opportunity wasn't here. He was a bench player who got sporadic time, and he wasn't going to be effective in that role. And there's nothing Nate could have done baout that, unless you advocate benching LMA so Frye could flourish. But then Aldridge wouldn't flourish. How do you expect to have a team where 12 people are all flourishing? It doesn't happen. Players leave teams every year and get an opportunity elsewhere and produce. It's not an issue that their previous coach was an idiot.

Not true. It wasn't shots, it was flow. Instead of allowing the team to run a little more, would allow players like that to do well. They didn't need to be 15 point scorers. They just needed time on the floor and more plays that allowed them to run. The minutes are methodical and Roy, Aldridge and Oden would all get the same amount of minutes. Sergio was usually played out of position and Frye was used to be a spot up shooter, without movement. You have it right about the system, but I disagree that Roy, Aldridge or Oden would see diminished roles on the team. In fact, I suspect it being even more refined.

 

[RR7]

Frye is a spot up shooter now! Everyone complained when he was here that all he did was shoot from outside. Now he's shooting from further outside in Phoenix, and everyone wants him back? Gimme a break. He takes like 5 threes a game. People in here would be PISSED if he was launching that many 3s here. But yeah, bring him back, and allow him to be what he is in Phoenix. That'll be good for us.

You want to run more when Jack was here? Problem is, everyone whined when Jack was here and ran the fast break. because he would put his head down and charge to the hoop, without looking to pass. He got an opportunity to score more in indiana, and now everyone forgot about their gripes with him before.

Sergio was hardly ever played out of position. He played PG. I suppose if he was out of position, it's because instead of putting the ball in his hands, we put the ball into the hands of our best player, atop 10 player in the NBA, and a 2nd team All NBA player. But putting it in Sergio's hands pribably makes more sense, right? Sergio's shot was broken, and he didn't get it fixed while he was here. For whatever reason. He couldn't shoot, and if he couldn't shoot, teams would sag off of him, and then he couldn't drive, which meant he spent 12 seconds going back and forth at the top of the key, going off of pick after pick from Joel or Outlaw.

And you said they didn't need shots, but time on the floor. Where was Channing supposed to get his time on the floor? When we have LMA and Oden we want to get minutes for, and when we were sorely lacking on interior defense, and needed Joel for that? It is an issue of minutes for him. They weren't here. Where do you want them to come from?

Jack got minutes here. I still wish we held on to him. He wa allowed to get into a flow, and get minutes. We moved him for someone our GM, and a lot of our fans, thought was a better player, in Bayless.

 

[magnifier661]

http://www.82games.com/0809/USORT13.HTM POR Rodriguez-Fernandez-Outlaw-Aldridge-Przybilla 112 +41 20 10 66% 1.17 0.95 .557 .436 +7 51% -2% +18

Did you know this 5 man line-up was our most efficient line-up last season? Kinda scary not seeing Roy or Blake in that group. I give Oden a pass, since he was still recovering from that surgery last season and realistically it was his rookie year.

 

[RR7]

Which stat are you looking at to say that was our most efficient? You have it sorted by Net48 +/-. If that is the stat you are using, then somehow you are missing two of our lineups above that one. Both with Blake and Roy in them.

 

[magnifier661]

Frye is a spot up shooter now! Everyone complained when he was here that all he did was shoot from outside. Now he's shooting from further outside in Phoenix, and everyone wants him back?

I guess you haven't been watching the Phoenix games at all have you? I really encourage you to watch them. See Frye and how he moves on the floor. See how he isn't just standing there waiting to get a pass. He's actually moving without the ball a lot. That "movement" is what the coach instills in you. The PG making you better, is just knowing how to pass well and read the defense, so he gives it to the right person at the perfect situation. Standing around, allowing the D to know your position, allows the defense to read the plays, and defend you and your stars better.

 

[RR7]

So you want Frye back as a 3 point shooter. I disagree. I think it's funny after the complaints people had about him last year that someone would want him back after he has done more of what people didn't like. Shoot outside jumpers. Because we aren't enough of a jump shooting team, really.

 

[magnifier661]

Which stat are you looking at to say that was our most efficient? You have it sorted by Net48 +/-. If that is the stat you are using, then somehow you are missing two of our lineups above that one. Both with Blake and Roy in them.

Oh my, I stand corrected. The #1 line-up was with Roy being SF, blake being PG and Fernandez being SG.

 

[magnifier661]

So you want Frye back as a 3 point shooter. I disagree. I think it's funny after the complaints people had about him last year that someone would want him back after he has done more of what people didn't like. Shoot outside jumpers. Because we aren't enough of a jump shooting team, really.

No, frye leaving is fine. Same with Sergio. As long as Nate is the coach, those types of players will never do well here. What we should do is write a letter to KP telling him to grab defensive players only. Just have the big three score 80% of your points and be done with it.

 

[RR7]

But our top 3 scorers(last year it was Roy, Aldridge and Outlaw) scored about the same percentage of our points as other teams' top 3 scorers did. It's like that with most teams. Part of it has been an issue with KP. You need to find role players that can play their role in spurts, and be ok with that. Not necessarily mentally, but on the cort. Bayless is that way. he doesn't need to warm up to get into his rhythm of getting to the basket. Rudy is on and off, but he doesn't necessarily seem like a guy who needs 25 minutes to hit his shots. he can come in and start dropping 3s. Martell IS one of those guys. he isn't a spark off the bench. Same with how Frye was. It's kind of like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. You can't get solid short etrm production out of rhythm players generally.

 

[magnifier661]

But our top 3 scorers(last year it was Roy, Aldridge and Outlaw) scored about the same percentage of our points as other teams' top 3 scorers did. It's like that with most teams. Part of it has been an issue with KP. You need to find role players that can play their role in spurts, and be ok with that. Not necessarily mentally, but on the cort. Bayless is that way. he doesn't need to warm up to get into his rhythm of getting to the basket. Rudy is on and off, but he doesn't necessarily seem like a guy who needs 25 minutes to hit his shots. he can come in and start dropping 3s. Martell IS one of those guys. he isn't a spark off the bench. Same with how Frye was. It's kind of like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. You can't get solid short etrm production out of rhythm players generally.

Those players aren't on the team and I'm not comfortable with Outlaw being our third highest scorer. I would much rather have the scoring load be on Roy, Aldridge, Oden and Fernandez and the rest of the team be defensive minded, that don't need to score to be effective on the court. I think Webster, Batum and Pryzbilla are the only three players on this team that fit that mold. And possibly the best role player "Batum" won't be back soon enough!

 

[RR7]

Those players aren't on the team and I'm not comfortable with Outlaw being our third highest scorer. I would much rather have the scoring load be on Roy, Aldridge, Oden and Fernandez and the rest of the team be defensive minded, that don't need to score to be effective on the court. I think Webster, Batum and Pryzbilla are the only three players on this team that fit that mold. And possibly the best role player "Batum" won't be back soon enough!

Which players aren't on the team?

I agree about Outlaw. I think Oden is working hsi way to being our 3rd highest scorer, and will be there sooner than later. Actually, I just looked, and he is our 3rd highest scorer. Success! haha. But last year was more Oden being raw than anything. I agree, though. I want playwers that COULD score, but don't need to. That care about being a defensive stopper. Saw a blurb about George Hill and Keith Bogans relishing that role in San Antonio. I want those stories coming out of here. Instead of offense, offense, offense. Seems to be the majority of what we hear about. Outlaw working on his shot. Frye working on his 3 pointer. Aldridge extending his range and improving his ball handling. Batum seems to relish the stopper opportunity. Martell at times has commented about improving defense. S eems to be about it, though.

 

[magnifier661]

Which players aren't on the team?

Oh, I meant players like Bowen, Wallace (Gerald), or Battie. Players that can score if left wide-open, but use their focus mainly on the defensive end. Those are the players we need. Give the scoring load to those players you stressed are the most important players on our team.

 

[Kaydow]

I would love to see the team try and run more. The last running team we had was when Adelman here. 1993-4 was the last season that Portland finished in the top 10 in fast breakpoints. That's unbelievable. From PJ Carlesimo to Mike Dunleavy to Mo Cheeks to Nate McMillan - not even 1 season in the top 10! The worst by far has been the last 5 McSlowen years that have seen the Blazers rank 28th (2005-6) 29th (2006-7) 29th (2007-8) 30th (2008-9) and 29th (this year) in Pace Factor out of 30 teams.

If they ran more, they'd get more possessions. More possessions = more shots for everybody. I'm in the "what do we have to lose?" camp right now. The season isn't going anywhere as it is currently being played. I suspect that they could right the ship and win 46-52 wins and squeeze into the playoffs if they make no changes (and stay healthy) It's certainly possible. But forget about a post season run.

So why not experiment with running NOW? Who cares if they lose more games while adjusting to a new style? I think we're all so sick of the slow pace - it's boring, predictable, and it makes below average defensive teams look like stalwarts (see Memphis, Golden State, & Utah games) The players are frustrated too. Guys like Rudy, JB, & Webster have open court ability that isn't being used. And they often struggle in half court sets (with the exception of Rudy & Web sometimes knocking down a few 3's) I'm not saying go Paul Westhead, or even Mike D'Antoni, but let's push the ball and see what happens. There will be 20 turnover nights, and more losses . . . can you live with that? I can.

 

[RR7]

Ah, gotcha. Sorry. I think batum will be that guy for us next season. I'm so pissed he has missed this season. I was looking forward ot his continued development. Joel is like that, but has seemed off this year at times. Early on, he seemed great, but the last two weeks or so, it just seems like we lose a lot when Greg comes off the floor, even on the defensive end. I see it as a negative, even though i know deep down it probably says more about Greg and his development.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I think I've got a new philosophy (other's are welcome to join me if you wish).

I've decided I'm not going to write one more analytical/complaining post about the team, players, coach, or management staff until something actually changes. So when the team finally makes a trade, or fires MacMillan, or the lineup changes I'll start talking about what this team does or doesn't do or why they should do something different, but with no changes in sight I think I've pretty much 'blown my wad' when it comes to looking at this team's play and why they play the way they do. No offense to people who still want to look at this and break it down, but doesn't it feel like we're we've had this conversation before -- that is, the whole "Nate MacMillan is stifling <Player X's> development? (and I'm not saying his is or isn't).

Anyway, carry on.

 

[hasoos]

Hey Wake up! There is a guy on Phoenix that makes everybody better. His name is Steve Nash. Now look at what his old coach is doing in NY. He isn't doing so well without Steve Nash is he? You are all so sure it is the system that is making the players better, when it is obviously not. It is a combination of system and the right players for the system.

How did Shaq do in Phoenix? He did shitty. Yet you wouldn't label him as a loser player. The system didn't work well with him.

Now as for Sergio, yea he had a few good games. But he had a few good games here. The bulk of the rest of them, look just like he performed here. So I don't know WTF you are smoking, but he is still Sergio. His shooting percentage is only decent right now because of one good game. In all but 3 games, he made few or no shots.

 

[magnifier661]

Ah, gotcha. Sorry. I think batum will be that guy for us next season. I'm so pissed he has missed this season. I was looking forward ot his continued development. Joel is like that, but has seemed off this year at times. Early on, he seemed great, but the last two weeks or so, it just seems like we lose a lot when Greg comes off the floor, even on the defensive end. I see it as a negative, even though i know deep down it probably says more about Greg and his development.

The more I see Batum gone, the more I realize just how important he was to this team. I can admit that. And I was one that wasn't enamored with Batum. I figured him to be an anomaly. I only wished for the days of watching Webster and Batum be a nice 1-2 combo on the wing. One the better shooter and physical guy, the other a perfect role player that is one of the best on this team on help D.

 

[magnifier661]

Hey Wake up! There is a guy on Phoenix that makes everybody better. His name is Steve Nash. Now look at what his old coach is doing in NY. He isn't doing so well without Steve Nash is he? You are all so sure it is the system that is making the players better, when it is obviously not. It is a combination of system and the right players for the system.

How did Shaq do in Phoenix? He did shitty. Yet you wouldn't label him as a loser player. The system didn't work well with him.

Now as for Sergio, yea he had a few good games. But he had a few good games here. The bulk of the rest of them, look just like he performed here. So I don't know WTF you are smoking, but he is still Sergio. His shooting percentage is only decent right now because of one good game. In all but 3 games, he made few or no shots.

Shaq career stats

17.8 points, 8.4 rebounds, 61% from the field, 1.4 blocks shitty? Damn if only he was playing well???? He would be averaging 32 points, 20 boards, 85% from the field and 13 blocks.

 

[RR7]

Shaq career stats

17.8 points, 8.4 rebounds, 61% from the field, 1.4 blocks shitty? Damn if only he was playing well???? He would be averaging 32 points, 20 boards, 85% from the field and 13 blocks.

Well, for his career, he averages 25 and 11 and 2.3. I would say 7 points below your career average, 3 rebounds below, and almost a block below is playing shitty for him. it's relative. Those are good numbers for LMA. If Roy averaged 13 points, 2 assists and 2 rebounds, you would say he is playing shitty. But if Rudy averages that this season, it would be a decent season.

 

[hasoos]

Shaq career stats

17.8 points, 8.4 rebounds, 61% from the field, 1.4 blocks shitty? Damn if only he was playing well???? He would be averaging 32 points, 20 boards, 85% from the field and 13 blocks.

Shitty on the "Shaq" scale of performance.

 

[DennisRodman]

Shaq career stats

17.8 points, 8.4 rebounds, 61% from the field, 1.4 blocks shitty? Damn if only he was playing well???? He would be averaging 32 points, 20 boards, 85% from the field and 13 blocks.

lol, yea it wasn't so shabby.

 

[hasoos]

lol, yea it wasn't so shabby.

Stat wise not bad. Was Phoenix in the playoffs? I think that answers that question. Was Shaq shipped ASAFP? I think that also answers that question.

 

[DennisRodman]

Stat wise not bad. Was Phoenix in the playoffs? I think that answers that question. Was Shaq shipped ASAFP? I think that also answers that question.

Yes, the Suns were 46-36, and as ridiculous as it sounds, would have needed 49 wins to guarantee making the playoffs.

49 wins probably would guarantee 4th seed in the East, if not better. Amare, because of that eye problem missed 30 games, if that didn't happen they would have made playoffs no matter what.

Regarding the trade, it definitely looks like it happened because Shaq wanted it, they had no benefit of getting Ben Wallace.