Trade Hart/Winslow/Didi/Keon/pick or CJ/Norm/Nance/Roco?

[THE HCP]

This one will be fun to look back on.

As will YOUR prediction FAMS.

 

[THE HCP]

Lol. I'll be shocked if we don't make the playoffs next year.

Does hurt our chances at advancing though... We need to hit big in draft.

So you'd be cool with us squeaking into the playoffs and losing early?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Nobody is saying the trade should have happened at that time for the Lakers pick instead of the Pels pick.

IF the Pels pick did not convey because they ended up making the playoffs, the logic that the Pels may have made the playoffs instead of the Lakers should have been considered. If Cronin would have had something like the better of the Pels or Laker pick, then the Milwaukie Bucks 2025 as the fail safe, you wouldn't see nearly as much bitching. I still wouldn't have been ecstatic, but I would be indifferent and more willing to see what Cronin might do this offseason. Just the same as if the Pels didn't make the playoffs and we got their pick.

I don't think the Pels would have done that. I don't think they wanted to include the pick at all. They thought they could get CJ without it, because they knew we had to trade him and there wasn't much demand for him and his contract.

I think we had to make the clippers trade early to show that we were serious and to put pressure on the Pels.

I think that's how Cronin finangled the opportunity at that lotto pick out of them. Unfortunately it didn't work out. But it was a worthy effort, IMO.

 

[wizenheimer]

Nobody is saying the trade should have happened at that time for the Lakers pick instead of the Pels pick.

actually, BJ said it in the post I responded to

IF the Pels pick did not convey because they ended up making the playoffs, the logic that the Pels may have made the playoffs instead of the Lakers should have been considered. If Cronin would have had something like the better of the Pels or Laker pick, then the Milwaukie Bucks 2025 as the fail safe, you wouldn't see nearly as much bitching. I still wouldn't have been ecstatic, but I would be indifferent and more willing to see what Cronin might do this offseason. Just the same as if the Pels didn't make the playoffs and we got their pick.

I'm pretty sure I was the first poster here to suggest that very trade and I suggested it back in February right around the deadline when there was a pretty low chance the Lakers would be in the top-10; and that both picks could/would/should be top-4 protected (no team was going to give up a potential top-4 pick for CJ)

but if that had been the trade and the Blazers had that Lakers pick, and then jumped into the top-4 during the lottery, I think we'd have the same amount of bitching from most of the same people. It sucks the Blazers won't have those two lottery picks we all dreamed about this year. But they were never going to have a guaranteed 2nd pick. There was always going to be a chance for bad luck, and being the Blazers, that's the fucking card they flopped

 

[calvin natt]

Don’t want any of them. I’m indifferent at this point.

 

[Phatguysrule]

So you'd be cool with us squeaking into the playoffs and losing early?

It doesn't matter what I'm cool with, I just don't think we're going to miss the playoffs with Dame, Ant, Hart, and Nurk. Especially if we get a legit forward out of the draft.

Fact is, we were hamstrung. Turning what we had into a contender over 1 off season was always an incredibly long shot.

 

[RR7]

So you'd be cool with us squeaking into the playoffs and losing early?

Isn't that what you've been saying you prefer?

 

[THE HCP]

Isn't that what you've been saying you prefer?

Sure is. Wish we doing that right now.

 

[THE HCP]

It doesn't matter what I'm cool with, I just don't think we're going to miss the playoffs with Dame, Ant, Hart, and Nurk. Especially if we get a legit forward out of the draft.

Fact is, we were hamstrung. Turning what we had into a contender over 1 off season was always an incredibly long shot.

Oh so you're assuming Nurk will be healthy?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Oh so you're assuming Nurk will be healthy?

Healthy enough to make the playoffs. Without a healthy Nurk we certainly weren't going to be contenders anyway. So I'm not sure what else you were expecting if you are planning on Nurk being injured...

 

[THE HCP]

Healthy enough to make the playoffs. Without a healthy Nurk we certainly weren't going to be contenders anyway. So I'm not sure what else you were expecting if you are planning on Nurk being injured...

That’s just it, I’m not.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Because of these moves.....I don't think we sniff the playoffs for another 5 years.

Hispanic

Canceling

Playoffs

 

[BonesJones]

Cleveland would have to send out Rubio to make the deal work, like they did in the Levert deal, eliminating the TPE.
That's also to assume that Cleveland would want Powell over Levert, which, it seems they were more interested in a bigger backcourt partner for Garland.

Yeah you're right. But still think we could find better value for Norm even without RoCo. Still think we could get a 1st for Norm, and if you made it a 3-team deal you could mess with the salaries to still get the $20M TPE. Or combine the Grant deal to it.

 

[SlyPokerCat]

actually, BJ said it in the post I responded to



I'm pretty sure I was the first poster here to suggest that very trade and I suggested it back in February right around the deadline when there was a pretty low chance the Lakers would be in the top-10; and that both picks could/would/should be top-4 protected (no team was going to give up a potential top-4 pick for CJ)

but if that had been the trade and the Blazers had that Lakers pick, and then jumped into the top-4 during the lottery, I think we'd have the same amount of bitching from most of the same people. It sucks the Blazers won't have those two lottery picks we all dreamed about this year. But they were never going to have a guaranteed 2nd pick. There was always going to be a chance for bad luck, and being the Blazers, that's the fucking card they flopped

@BonesJones is saying that because we know the Lakers pick would have conveyed to us AFTER THE FACT. He isn't saying we should have only taken the Lakers pick back then. He has stated multiple times the saame thing i'm saying. The Lakers pick should have been included so we would get the better of either pick.

Yes, there was always still a chance the lotto balls didn't go our way. I could live with that instead of not even having the lotto balls fucking us as an option.

 

[BonesJones]

@BonesJones is saying that because we know the Lakers pick would have conveyed to us AFTER THE FACT. He isn't saying we should have only taken the Lakers pick back then. He has stated multiple times the saame thing i'm saying. The Lakers pick should have been included so we would get the better of either pick.

Yes, there was always still a chance the lotto balls didn't go our way. I could live with that instead of not even having the lotto balls fucking us as an option.

Not even neccesarily the better pick, just that if the Pelicans pick didn't convey first, then it should've been backed up by the Lakers pick if it was available. New Orleans was willing to give up what was the 8th Pick at the time (their own) and somehow, if the trade worked out and they made the playoffs or their pick moved into the top 4, they weren't willing to back up those scenarios with a pick likely to be 8-10 that they didn't seem likely to have? The condition is literally a better outcome for them than the initial, expected trade, yet Cronin couldn't negotiate that as part of the deal.

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

So there are a lot of you who were OK with CJ's contract? and Norm's also? Getting those 2 contracts off our books is a huge factor in these trades.
Rumors are that several good free agents didn't want to come here because we had 2 ball dominant guards. They really wanted to play with Dame, but not with Dame and CJ.
I'm holding out faith that in the long run, these trades will result in a much better roster and a roster that fits Chauncy's style. Only time will tell.
I believe that if Cronin was our GM sooner, CJ would of been traded when his value was higher and we'd be in the playoffs right now.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

So there are a lot of you who were OK with CJ's contract? and Norm's also? Getting those 2 contracts off our books is a huge factor in these trades.
Rumors are that several good free agents didn't want to come here because we had 2 ball dominant guards. They really wanted to play with Dame, but not with Dame and CJ.
I'm holding out faith that in the long run, these trades will result in a much better roster and a roster that fits Chauncy's style. Only time will tell.
I believe that if Cronin was our GM sooner, CJ would of been traded when his value was higher and we'd be in the playoffs right now.

Norm was on a good contract. CJ might have been a bit overpaid, but he was clearly the Blazers second best player, and now there is no way to replace his salary relief with an above average starting player. I don't understand what benefit getting CJ contract off the books provides for this teams roster talent? The only benefit I see is Jody Allen and Vulcan's pocketbooks. Sad that the Blazers now prioritize cost savings above roster talent.

I did believe one of Dame, CJ, or Simons eventually would need to go. But it didn't have to be done in a rush before the deadline, and we didn't have to jettison Norm as well. The change needed to be done in a way that maximizes the long term talent of the Blazers roster, that is something a good GM like Morey would have done; he put up with a historically awkward situation for 8 months to hold out for an MVP talent, which he eventually got. Conversely Cronin dumped his assets for a big loss weeks before a deadline and months/years before the Blazers would be trying to contend. If there is no good trade available today, well then a good GM waits for tomorrow.

Norm would've been great on his reasonable contract as a 3rd guard with Dame & Simons. He could defend, could play off the ball, and could start or come off the bench. Now if we got excellent value for him I would've explored moving him. Instead Cronin rushed to trade him, with the largest benefit being dollars saved to Jody Allen and Vulcan.

I sure won't be giving my dollars to support this current ownership and management. I hope they sell the team ASAP.

 

[RR7]

Norm isn't a great contract at 17 million dollars coming off the bench. And he definitely shouldn't be starting at the 3.
Also his defense is poor.

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

I disagree.
Simons > CJ - especially if you factor in $.
Hart > Norm - again, especially if you factor in $.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I disagree.
Simons > CJ - especially if you factor in $.
Hart > Norm - again, especially if you factor in $.

We didn't trade CJ for Simons. We had both.

We didn't get Hart for Norm. We could have had both.

I'd say overall the disagreements in these threads come down to two schools of thought;
1. Some fans believe in addition by subtraction for a team with middling talent.
2. Other fans believe when a team has mediocre talent, the team needs to retain or add the maximum talent possible.

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

We didn't trade CJ for Simons. We had both.

We didn't get Hart for Norm. We could have had both.

No shit! ha ha.
I'm looking at the overall big picture.
Why in the world would we want/need both? We have other needs.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

No shit! ha ha.
I'm looking at the overall big picture.
Why in the world would we want/need both? We have other needs.

Yes the Blazers did have other more urgent needs than duplicate guards, so the goal in getting rid of one of these players should be to address one of those needs.

Just getting rid of guard talent with no benefit is the same as giving away a $20k car because you had two of them and need to pay for a $20k remodel. Well now you have one car but still need to buy a $20k remodel.

The Blazers went from very deep at guards with starting talents to trade for other positions; to now having shallow guard depth with no talent on the roster to trade.

"Flexibility" and "Cap Space" and Raef LaFrentz golden ticket all are worth close to nothing in solving needs in Portland as history has shown. The ability to solve the teams many other needs has now been reduced as a result of the February trades.

 

[wizenheimer]

@BonesJones is saying that because we know the Lakers pick would have conveyed to us AFTER THE FACT. He isn't saying we should have only taken the Lakers pick back then. He has stated multiple times the saame thing i'm saying. The Lakers pick should have been included so we would get the better of either pick.

Yes, there was always still a chance the lotto balls didn't go our way. I could live with that instead of not even having the lotto balls fucking us as an option.

I know what you're saying and I know what Bones may have meant but didn't directly say

it's the same thing I said in February when the details of the trade came out. That Lakers' pick would have been some insurance. And that insurance could have been backed up by the top-4 protected Lakers' pick in 2024, and if none of those 3 picks are conveyed, then that Milwaukee pick; and after that, a couple of 2nds. I'm thinking the Pels would probably, maybe, have agreed to most of that, and that Cronin settled. I don't know that for sure though, and I don't know if Cronin asked for more and was refused. But with the addition of Nance that certainly seems reasonable

in other words, you guys aren't plowing new ground. But that ask looks a hell of a lot more attractive now that the Pels 'own' that pick (if in the top-10) then back at the deadline when the Lakers pick was 12th in the lottery. To not come out of the deal with that 2022 Laker's pick did not look like such a failure in February (and again, the other side of that coin is that asking for that pick wouldn't have been a big ask). Sometimes, teams just have bad luck. It happens. The Lakers were 2 games under .500 at 54 games just before the trade deadline; in the remaining 28 games, they went from 2 games under .500 to 16 games under .500. And of course, PG13 gets covid the day of the play-in game while Kennard gets hurt in the last regular season game. That's all great luck for the Pels and bad luck for the Blazers

so yeah, Cronin was probably snookered some on that deal. But, IMO, he was not snookered enough to justify the two-month tantrum many of you are throwing

 

[Phatguysrule]

That’s just it, I’m not.

Not sure what you're getting at. But if 3 of the guys I listed play most of the season we're going to make the playoffs. If Little also plays most of the season we could be top 5 or 6.

If we get another legit starting forward with our pick we could compete for HCA.

Dame and Ant are freaking good. Their defense just isn't good enough to make us elite. That'll hurt in the playoffs.

We can trade Dame at any point and be right in the midst of a youth movement. And I think if things aren't looking great next season Dame might just agree to that...

 

[Phatguysrule]

We didn't trade CJ for Simons. We had both.

We didn't get Hart for Norm. We could have had both.

I'd say overall the disagreements in these threads come down to two schools of thought;
1. Some fans believe in addition by subtraction for a team with middling talent.
2. Other fans believe when a team has mediocre talent, the team needs to retain or add the maximum talent possible.

Having Dame, CJ, Ant, Norm and Hart on their contracts would be incredibly stupid.

Teams knew that, and that impacted the value they were willing to offer.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Yes the Blazers did have other more urgent needs than duplicate guards, so the goal in getting rid of one of these players should be to address one of those needs.

Just getting rid of guard talent with no benefit is the same as giving away a $20k car because you had two of them and need to pay for a $20k remodel. Well now you have one car but still need to buy a $20k remodel.

The Blazers went from very deep at guards with starting talents to trade for other positions; to now having shallow guard depth with no talent on the roster to trade.

"Flexibility" and "Cap Space" and Raef LaFrentz golden ticket all are worth close to nothing in solving needs in Portland as history has shown. The ability to solve the teams many other needs has now been reduced as a result of the February trades.

Those undersized guards and their contracts weren't worth the players we'd need in return to shore up our needs. Or we would have just traded one or more for a player like Jeremy Grant.

Nobody that had what we needed wanted those guys on those contracts.

 

[oldmangrouch]

So there are a lot of you who were OK with CJ's contract? and Norm's also? Getting those 2 contracts off our books is a huge factor in these trades.
Rumors are that several good free agents didn't want to come here because we had 2 ball dominant guards. They really wanted to play with Dame, but not with Dame and CJ.
I'm holding out faith that in the long run, these trades will result in a much better roster and a roster that fits Chauncy's style. Only time will tell.
I believe that if Cronin was our GM sooner, CJ would of been traded when his value was higher and we'd be in the playoffs right now.

I won't speak for others, but I wasn't fond of their contracts and I was OK with trading them. What I don't agree with is the addition-by-subtraction argument that we had to dump them so urgently that it was OK to get little or no value in return. IMHO that argument only applies to players who are poison in the locker-room, not players who are good guys and good players but a flawed fit. YMMV.

 

[wizenheimer]

I won't speak for others, but I wasn't fond of their contracts and I was OK with trading them. What I don't agree with is the addition-by-subtraction argument that we had to dump them so urgently that it was OK to get little or no value in return. IMHO that argument only applies to players who are poison in the locker-room, not players who are good guys and good players but a flawed fit. YMMV.

"so little value" assumes there was a lot more value to be had

but I have NOT seen a shred of evidence that is true....just a lot of assumption it had to be true because, well, just because some want it to be true. What if it wasn't true? Should the Blazers have just rebooted the same type of roster for an 8th year that had failed for 7 straight years?

 

[THE HCP]

So there are a lot of you who were OK with CJ's contract? and Norm's also? Getting those 2 contracts off our books is a huge factor in these trades.
Rumors are that several good free agents didn't want to come here because we had 2 ball dominant guards. They really wanted to play with Dame, but not with Dame and CJ.
I'm holding out faith that in the long run, these trades will result in a much better roster and a roster that fits Chauncy's style. Only time will tell.
I believe that if Cronin was our GM sooner, CJ would of been traded when his value was higher and we'd be in the playoffs right now.

"Long Run" & "Only time will tell" are 2 terms we can't afford to use with Dame and his window..... if we are in that mode, let's just ship him out now while we can.

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

"so little value" assumes there was a lot more value to be had

but I have NOT seen a shred of evidence that is true....just a lot of assumption it had to be true because, well, just because some want it to be true. What if it wasn't true? Should the Blazers have just rebooted the same type of roster for an 8th year that had failed for 7 straight years?

Exactly!