Have you read the Koran?

[TradeNurkicNow]

Well wonderful we completely agree. So now I need to convince our leadership to quit this baloney about radical Islam. The basis for the Fatwas and Jihad is in Islam.

I have a feeling some of this is sarcasm, but your posting style makes it impossible to tell.

Of course the basis for fatwas and Jihad is in Islam. They are Islamic concepts. However, the anti-western ways in which those concepts are used doesn't come from the Qur'an, as you suggested.

We need to follow the teachings of Sun Tzu and go for the leader that issued the Fatwa and forget about how some followers became radicalized. Fighting the grunts won't get er done. Perhaps we need to help restore a Caliph who can help put down these unruly Fatwa issuing Imams and or back off the Fatwas they issue. Or know the reason why you have a problem. Ben Laden sitting out there for more than 10 years unmolested is baloney and worse yet his Fatwas still stand.

I disagree with most of this.

1. How (and more importantly, why) the followers become radicalized is the most critical issue to fighting terrorism. There will always be firebrand imams preaching "Death to America." If you kill one, two more will pop up. The same with the "grunts" as you call them. Kill one, and two more pop up. You can't solve violence with violence unless you want to commit some serious crimes against humanity. We need to understand and try to remedy how and why everyday Muslims decide to take up violent Jihad (hint: this is a socioeconomic issue). The radical imams will have no power if their potential army is contented.

2. The last thing the U.S. and the majority of Muslims wants to do is restore the Islamic caliphate.

3. Us not killing Bin Laden was a major failure. You can blame Bush for that. The effect of his fatwas is not something anyone can change.

 

[MARIS61]

I read quite a bit of it back in the 70's, which is quite a bit more than most Muslims have read since nearly half of all Muslims cannot read or write.

 

[MarAzul]

I have a feeling some of this is sarcasm, but your posting style makes it impossible to tell.

Of course the basis for fatwas and Jihad is in Islam. They are Islamic concepts. However, the anti-western ways in which those concepts are used doesn't come from the Qur'an, as you suggested.



I disagree with most of this.

1. How (and more importantly, why) the followers become radicalized is the most critical issue to fighting terrorism. There will always be firebrand imams preaching "Death to America." If you kill one, two more will pop up. The same with the "grunts" as you call them. Kill one, and two more pop up. You can't solve violence with violence unless you want to commit some serious crimes against humanity. We need to understand and try to remedy how and why everyday Muslims decide to take up violent Jihad (hint: this is a socioeconomic issue). The radical imams will have no power if their potential army is contented.

2. The last thing the U.S. and the majority of Muslims wants to do is restore the Islamic caliphate.

3. Us not killing Bin Laden was a major failure. You can blame Bush for that. The effect of his fatwas is not something anyone can change.

And I disagree with most of the idea that we must pacify the people of Islam or suffer Jihad forever. I will agree they probably do not want a Caliph because they could have one if they wish and don't need any help from this area.

But I don't necessarily blame Bush for Ben Laden being on the loose for so long, hell he was among good Muslims all along. They could have given the despicable bastard up any day and they did not.

If the imams continue this Jihad tactics instead of fixing their "socioeconomic issues" then we will come to the problem and I am surprised we are not there now. I am, I do not know why my countryman are lagging.

At some point one of these actions will succeed in killing enough Americans to cause the survivors to insisted this issue be prosecuted to a conclusion. The radical prefix to Islam will be dropped and we will see if we can deplete the available population of Imams willing to issue unfavorable Fatwas. Of course there will be many followers surrounding these leaders of Jihad that will suffer the fate of a poor choice.

I don't expect it will happen with Obama in control (notice I did not say lead) but it will happen.
Weather it takes many Boston style attacks or one big one, the perception will begin to focus on a solution that can succeed. Americans can not change the socioeconomic conditions of the people of Islam but we can illuminate the treat of Jihad once the target are clearly in focus.

Americans reading the Koran can hasten the day they understand Islam and that Islam views Americans as Infidels and that doing despicable acts to Infidels is encouraged. Then the correction can begin.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Ok, I need to go line by line here. Bear with me.

And I disagree with most of the idea that we must pacify the people of Islam or suffer Jihad forever.

And I did not suggest that. Here's a question: What do you think are the problems/complaints Muslims have with the West and America?

I will agree they probably do not want a Caliph because they could have one if they wish and don't need any help from this area.

They most definitely could not have a caliph. Remember, an Islamic caliphate is what al-Qaida and the Taliban want to install in the Middle East and North Africa. It is the opposite of what the vast majority of Muslims want. It is even less appealing to the current leaders of the region. There is no way.

But I don't necessarily blame Bush for Ben Laden being on the loose for so long, hell he was among good Muslims all along. They could have given the despicable bastard up any day and they did not.

The Taliban controlled region in Afghanistan and Pakistan have a much more complicated identity than "good Muslims." Tribal affiliation goes a long way, and I suspect that it was tribal ties and sheer intimidation that kept Osama's location hidden for so long. And the people who follow him are not "good Muslims" in the eyes of the rest of the Islamic faith. Osama preached a radical version of Islam that is based on loose interpretations and now ignored passages. The vast majority do not view this as "good" Islam.

If the imams continue this Jihad tactics instead of fixing their "socioeconomic issues" then we will come to the problem and I am surprised we are not there now. I am, I do not know why my countryman are lagging.

Imams cannot fix the socioeconomic issues that cause young men to turn to radical Islam. These are very large and entrenched issues that are most often addressed via revolution or terrorism.

At some point one of these actions will succeed in killing enough Americans to cause the survivors to insisted this issue be prosecuted to a conclusion. The radical prefix to Islam will be dropped and we will see if we can deplete the available population of Imams willing to issue unfavorable Fatwas. Of course there will be many followers surrounding these leaders of Jihad that will suffer the fate of a poor choice.

I don't expect it will happen with Obama in control (notice I did not say lead) but it will happen.
Weather it takes many Boston style attacks or one big one, the perception will begin to focus on a solution that can succeed. Americans can not change the socioeconomic conditions of the people of Islam but we can illuminate the treat of Jihad once the target are clearly in focus.

It seems to me that you're suggesting that an all out war against Muslims will happen in the future. I don't think so.

Americans reading the Koran can hasten the day they understand Islam and that Islam views Americans as Infidels and that doing despicable acts to Infidels is encouraged. Then the correction can begin.

Like I said before, nowhere in the Qur'an does it suggest Americans are infidels. That doesn't really make any sense. I would encourage you to read the bible and ask yourself if Christians feel impelled to obey everything in there. No? It's the same with Islam.

 

[MarAzul]

Ok, I need to go line by line here. Bear with me.



And I did not suggest that. Here's a question: What do you think are the problems/complaints Muslims have with the West and America?

>>> I really don't care. The killing of my countrymen overrides caring like a binary switch.


They most definitely could not have a caliph. Remember, an Islamic caliphate is what al-Qaida and the Taliban want to install in the Middle East and North Africa. It is the opposite of what the vast majority of Muslims want. It is even less appealing to the current leaders of the region. There is no way.

>>> Too bad, a little self control could prevent a pending disaster.


The Taliban controlled region in Afghanistan and Pakistan have a much more complicated identity than "good Muslims." Tribal affiliation goes a long way, and I suspect that it was tribal ties and sheer intimidation that kept Osama's location hidden for so long. And the people who follow him are not "good Muslims" in the eyes of the rest of the Islamic faith. Osama preached a radical version of Islam that is based on loose interpretations and now ignored passages. The vast majority do not view this as "good" Islam.

>>> Ok, you may drop the "Good". (Sarcasm was intended here.)


Imams cannot fix the socioeconomic issues that cause young men to turn to radical Islam. These are very large and entrenched issues that are most often addressed via revolution or terrorism.

>>> I am quite confident that none of the attacks on the US people, Ambassadors and such
improved their condition even the slightest. But things can get a whole hell of a lot worse by continuing the tactics.



It seems to me that you're suggesting that an all out war against Muslims will happen in the future. I don't think so.

>>>>We disagree, this crap can not continue, a resolution is require.



Like I said before, nowhere in the Qur'an does it suggest Americans are infidels. That doesn't really make any sense. I would encourage you to read the bible and ask yourself if Christians feel impelled to obey everything in there. No? It's the same with Islam.

>>> Of course the Koran does not say Americans are infidels, America came to be about 1200 years after Islam and the Koran. It does give you a good idea what the infidels can expect from the Muslims. Some of their leaders
have used this label often enough even without issuing a Fatwa. I would guess a large majority of this board do not view themselves as Christian nor Jew, so it would be logical for them to identity with the infidel IF they read the Koran. It is good to know where you stand and what your prospects are.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Thanks for an insight into your paranoid delusions and expectations for the future. If I ever meet you, I'll make sure to cut my beard just in case you're carrying.

 

[MarAzul]

Thanks for an insight into your paranoid delusions and expectations for the future. If I ever meet you, I'll make sure to cut my beard just in case you're carrying.

Have a good day hoo.