HCP, did you edit out God?

[Ed O]

That's never stopped me from being right before.

As I've already pointed out, most Americans are clueless about the history of their own country.

The majority of Americans are mindless sheep who let the media form their beliefs, their biases, their very thoughts for them.

The fact that they might not agree with me only validates my opinions.

You claimed that it's "unrepresentative of America in it's [sic] present form."

I think that you can look to the population of a country to see what is representative of it.

I would humbly submit that you are unrepresentative of America in its present form. Which is totally OK, and you don't need to dig America in its present form, but I don't understand how you can criticize something for being unrepresentative and then say that it's due to ignorance on the part of those who are represented.

Ed O.

 

[PapaG]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", also the concept of separation of church & state has been used by the court system, including the Supreme Court.

Forcing kids to recite a pledge that makes reference to the nation being under "Gods" power sounds a bit like an endorsement of a religion. It should not be taking place in public schools. If they want to make it open such as "one nation under God or maybe Allah, or maybe Ganesha or maybe spiritual force known as Karma or maybe a flying spaghetti monster or maybe nothing or maybe we haven't proven all the mysterys of the universe...etc..etc..etc..", then maybe it would be okay. But that would would probably ruffle a few feathers...

Kids aren't forced to say the Pledge. I remember growing up some kids didn't say it because it was against their own kooky beliefs. Also, does having "In God We Trust" on our money establish a religion? Are you so upset by those words that you refuse to use American money?

 

[PapaG]

FWIW

I found the entire intro to be over-the-top jingoism, and I don't give a flying fuck what words were or were not included in NBC's awkward attempt at patriotism.

 

[Ed O]

I don't understand the taking out of "indivisible"... does that word have some kind of meaning that isn't apparent?

I think it's a bigger deal, personally.

I would imagine that it just flowed better without it in there, OR that they didn't want to only exclude "under God" so they dropped indivisible, as well.

I believe there's a version that had five words dropped, too, but I haven't seen/heard it.

Ed O.

 

[Klinky]

Kids aren't forced to say the Pledge. I remember growing up some kids didn't say it because it was against their own kooky beliefs

Ahh, yes, any belief in something other than a mainstream Christian god = "kooky". A passive aggressive sky god isn't kinda kooky? Kids who didn't say the pledge got in trouble & getting sent to the principles office wasn't unheard of. Not to mention you get labeled as "unpatriotic"... blah blah blah...

Also, does having "In God We Trust" on our money establish a religion? Are you so upset by those words that you refuse to use American money?

Yes it does endorse a religion, at least one that believes in a "God". Yes it annoys me. I mainly use my debit card so I rarely see paper anymore . Even if I had to use paper money, I'd still use it because I am kind of forced to use it. It's like saying "It's raining outside, does that upset you so much that you're not going to ever go outside when it rains!!?", sometimes you just have to go outside when it's raining & there's nothing you can do about it, just like sometimes I have to use money that says "In God We Trust" though I don't believe or endorse that God and see no reason why the country has to endorse "it".

 

[PapaG]

Ahh, yes, any belief in something other than a mainstream Christian god = "kooky".

You're obviously new here. I think belief in all "gods" is kooky, Christian or otherwise. I just don't see the outrage over the two words "under god", be they omitted or included in the pledge. That's why I said "their own kooky beliefs". I don't get why atheists get so worked up over things like this; it's just a sign of the irrational nature of their own religion.

A passive aggressive sky god isn't kinda kooky? Kids who didn't say the pledge got in trouble & getting sent to the principles office wasn't unheard of. Not to mention you get labeled as "unpatriotic"... blah blah blah...

That's a hodgepodge of mumbo-jumbo, and is anecdotal at best.

Yes it does endorse a religion, at least one that believes in a "God". Yes it annoys me. I mainly use my debit card so I rarely see paper anymore . Even if I had to use paper money, I'd still use it because I am kind of forced to use it. It's like saying "It's raining outside, does that upset you so much that you're not going to ever go outside when it rains!!?", sometimes you just have to go outside when it's raining & there's nothing you can do about it, just like sometimes I have to use money that says "In God We Trust" though I don't believe or endorse that God and see no reason why the country has to endorse "it".

If you don't believe in something, and are sure it doesn't exist, why do you care if other people believe in it? If you're firm in your beliefs, it really shouldn't matter what other people think, should it? If our courts have decided that including the words "under god" is perfectly constitutional, isn't that good enough? Just omit those words yourself, or don't say the pledge at all.

The primary problem with atheists is they are just as eager to impose their own beliefs on others. Two sides of the same coin, IMO.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

indivisible is much more descriptive than under god i would say

 

[Klinky]

I just don't see the outrage over the two words "under god", be they omitted or included in the pledge. That's why I said "their own kooky beliefs". I don't get why atheists get so worked up over things like this; it's just a sign of the irrational nature of their own religion.

I never said you were Christian or believed in a God. It's the USA endorsing a "God", i.e. a Christian God, this is why people like it & why people dislike it. Religion has been a hotbed of activity for thousands of years. Jehovah's Witnesses still believe in God, but some don't recite the pledge, that's what I meant by "mainstream". I am not atheist, I am more agnostic. I am more against the use of the pledge in and of itself & not really because of the use of the words "under god".

That's a hodgepodge of mumbo-jumbo, and is anecdotal at best.

Com'on now. I am playing Backgammon & you're certainly playing Chinese Checkers!

If you don't believe in something, and are sure it doesn't exist, why do you care if other people believe in it? If you're firm in your beliefs, it really shouldn't matter what other people think, should it?

Religion & beliefs dictate peoples lives & policy is often made based off of religious beliefs. Regardless of my religion, other peoples religions will probably affect me at some point in my life.

The primary problem with atheists is they are just as eager to impose their own beliefs on others.

Says the man who spams the OT forum with his conservative propaganda...

 

[PapaG]

Says the man who spams the OT forum with his conservative propaganda...

Being anti-war, pro-gay, pro-choice, and agnostic makes me a conservative?

I thought that made me a Libertarian at heart!

Also, think about this.

What if God was one of us?

Just a slob like one of us?

 

[maxiep]

Being anti-war, pro-gay, pro-choice, and agnostic makes me a conservative?

I thought that made me a Libertarian at heart!

Also, think about this.

What if God was one of us?

Just a slob like one of us?

[video=youtube;yPDaz6uO9Ps]

 

[jlprk]

This Klinky guy is clueless in terms of the actual Constitution and how it applies to the made up concept of "separation of church and state".

In other words, you're powerless to beat his video. Whenever you are clueless about arguing the issue, you make some quickie personal attack.

Kids aren't forced to say the Pledge. I remember growing up some kids didn't say it because it was against their own kooky beliefs. Also, does having "In God We Trust" on our money establish a religion? Are you so upset by those words that you refuse to use American money?

So you would have no problem if the words were changed to "one nation under communism" (because any disagreeing kids could abstain) and if the money said "in communism we trust" (because people would still spend money).

 

[PapaG]

In other words, you're powerless to beat his video. Whenever you are clueless about arguing the issue, you make some quickie personal attack.



So you would have no problem if the words were changed to "one nation under communism" (because any disagreeing kids could abstain) and if the money said "in communism we trust" (because people would still spend money).

If that's what our country decided, I'd try to beat it in the courts or the next election. In a communist country, I doubt we'd have free reign on the internet to object to that Pledge, so the question is probably moot, anyhow. Dissenters like me would be put to death, imprisoned, or forced to flee in those countries.

For an old man, you sure suck at history.