Healthcare Premiums Become More Expensive for the Uninsured?

[speeds]

That's new citizens, not new immigrants. It certainly doesn't factor illegal immigrants, which can't be tracked.
...
Again, you have filtered and controlled immigration. You consider how each immigrant can contribute to your society. We don't means test and that doesn't even factor in illegal immigrants, who are generally low-skill workers.
...
I never said Canada was a dumb country.
...
Canada is a first-world country. I never said differently.
...
I'd love to have 10x the resources, but we don't have your oil, natural gas, diamonds or hockey players.

I was countering your argument that he US and Canada were too dissimilar to have similar health care designs--which is incorrect. Both countries have illegal immigration. Both countries have a high percentage of immigrants. Both have similar education and income rates.

What I said about resources includes number of nurses, hospitals, clinics, etc.. I'm not talking about oil and soft wood lumber.

I never said we didn't have anything to learn. In fact, our greatness comes from the fact that the US has been a magnet for people all over the world who realized they couldn't accomplish their dreams in their home country, so they came here, where the possibilites were unlimited. By definition we learn and prosper by learning from the rest of the world.

And those "best practices" have led us to our current health system. That health system--taking out homicides and vehicular fatalities, which can't be blamed on our health care system--has led to the highest life expectancy in the world. It has led to the longest lifespan after major surgery in the world. Is it more expensive? You bet. Do those who require urgent treatment ever get turned down? NEVER.

Untrue.

Also, if it was the best, then your "most expensive" argument would hold water.

Not turning someone away doesn't mean you aren't fucking bankrupting them, either. What kind of system is that?It isn't.

We don't have a health care problem in the US. We have a health insurance/payment problem. People have difficulty affording the services offered. But they're never denied urgent treatment. In countries with socialized medicine, you have health care problems. Health care is rationed by the State. You have to wait. You have to live with discomfort. Even if you wish to pay for the procedure, you can't get it done when you want in your own country. And when the pain becomes unbearable, you have to go to another country, usually the good ol' U.S. of A.

Waiting is a result of sharing. You don't want to share? And again, do you think so little of yourselves that you can't do better?

The bottom line is that we have chose to stake a different path. No one criticizes Sweden for trying their political "Third Way". Why criticize us? In fact, if I were Canadian, I would pray that we don't socialize our medical system. If we do, those big shiny hospitals in Plattsburgh, Burlington, Niagara Falls (NY), Detroit and Bellingham will be closed to our friends from the North.

You can change course. Just because you made a mistake doesn't mean you need to keep it up. I don't pray for anything but I certainly wouldn't pray that the hundreds of millions of Americans getting inadequate health care (including the insured) don't get it. That's sick. Anything short of single payer is going to be leaving people out.

 

[maxiep]

I was countering your argument that he US and Canada were too dissimilar to have similar health care designs--which is incorrect. Both countries have illegal immigration. Both countries have a high percentage of immigrants. Both have similar education and income rates.

What I said about resources includes number of nurses, hospitals, clinics, etc.. I'm not talking about oil and soft wood lumber.Untrue.

Also, if it was the best, then your "most expensive" argument would hold water.

It's more than life expectancy. You have to evaluate what the health care system can and cannot address. Can the health care system stop murders? Vehicular accidents where the person dies before help can arrive? Those both have major impacts on our life expectancy. Check out this book. It was the result of an actual academic study; it's not crackpot science to support a conclusion already arrived at.

http://www.amazon.com/Business-Health-Robert-Ohsfeldt/dp/0844742406

You're assuming that number would remain static. If you drop a physician's pay from around $100-$150K down to $75-$80K (which would be the rough amount based on current Medicare reimbursements), then you're going to have fewer physicians. The best and brightest will find other ways to make a living better than the one offered in medicine.

One of the areas of "efficiency" is to raise the ratio of patients to nurses from 6:1 to 12-15:1 (which is the norm in countries with socialized medicine). We're struggling to keep up now.

The current bill also plans to reduce Medicare by 10%, which is remarkable considering the demographic time bomb the retirement of the baby boomers is going to cause.

And it's not like your country is doing a bang up job: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=cp_x081502A.xml&show_article=1

Your own physicans are in revolt.

Not turning someone away doesn't mean you aren't fucking bankrupting them, either. What kind of system is that?

It's a free market solution. Why shouldn't your health care be at the top of the list for things for which you're willing to pay? What good is a second car or an X-Box if you're not around to enjoy them? People here get well. If they declare bankruptcy, it's an attempt to protect their assets rather than pay. And why didn't people get health insurance in the first place?

It is common for hospitals to work out payment plans for treatment. It's equally as common for insurancea and drug companies to provide medication and treatment at steeply discounted rates if their care isn't covered.

It isn't.Waiting is a result of sharing.

Waiting is a result of inadequate supply in the face of demand. You have inadequate supply; we don't. We like the supply we have. That's why 83% of people in the US is satisfied or better with the health care they have.

You don't want to share?

We don't have to share. Everyone who demands treatment gets it in this country. That's not the case in Canada.

And again, do you think so little of yourselves that you can't do better? You can change course. Just because you made a mistake doesn't mean you need to keep it up.

How can we do better than offering immediate treatment and relieving pain in days instead of months and years? The mistake is socialized health care. We don't plan on following it.

I don't pray for anything but I certainly wouldn't pray that the hundreds of millions of Americans getting inadequate health care (including the insured) don't get it. That's sick.

We get terrific health care. You're trying to argue from a false resolution.

Anything short of single payer is going to be leaving people out.

Tell me who's been turned away from an emergency room? No one is left out.

 

[bodyman5001]

And? Part of the problem with anecdotal evidence that many people like to throw around here is that you can almost always find an exception to the rule. You want me to find some American health care horror stories? That would be EASY. That's why the analysis more often looks at an overall situation. The problem that currently exists is that no one can agree on an objective measure of what is a good health care system and when they do agree on something the results are interpreted a million different ways.

What do you want me to do? Move there and try it out?

I found more of this stuff while I was researching my gallbladder and I can't imagine those stories of people coming to this country for care is a lie.

My uncle had his feet crushed in a car accident with an illegal immigrant who was at fault and had no insurance. My uncle's work truck was not running that day so he was driving his personal truck. My uncle was insured up the wazoo if he was driving his work truck, but his personal truck had regular coverage. My uncle's feet were saved because the Trailblazers team orthopedic surgeon (I think that was who it was) was on call and rebuilt my uncle's feet like the Six Million Dollar Man.

My uncle lost everything because he was a self employed carpet installer. He was in the hospital for months and months.

Yet he is back working now and rebuilding his life. It would be probably be tougher having no feet. He isn't bitter about losing possessions, he is happy to be healthy.


So, would Obama pay his mortgage and electric bill when he was in the hospital?

You say people can't agree what is wrong with healthcare and how to fix it but we are supposed to trust the Democrats to fix it without bankrupting us.....doubtful.

 

[bluefrog]

And those "best practices" have led us to our current health system. That health system--taking out homicides and vehicular fatalities, which can't be blamed on our health care system--has led to the highest life expectancy in the world. It has led to the longest lifespan after major surgery in the world.

Do you have a link that confirms this (I'm not attacking you BTW)? I've read that life expectancy in the U.S. is low compare to other industrialized nations because of our diet, lack of exercise, etc....

We don't have a health care problem in the US. We have a health insurance/payment problem. People have difficulty affording the services offered.

Absolutely!!

 

[deception]

Wrong again. In Europe and Canada, there's a strong insurance market that will send you to the States to be treated. If we close off that market, it will go to those countries. It will be a boon for them.

Do you ever post anything that's correct?

everyone knows u make up your shit to satisfy your biases. health tourism occurs all over the world- americans do it at a larger scale because of the prohibitive costs of attaining good insurance in america. just look at the thousands of patients who flock to india to undergo treatment

 

[Shapecity]

our premiums didnt go up at all here in canada

as for the topic- young ppl also engage in more reckless behaviour than anyone else so when they get in a fight in the entertainment district and they are rushed to the hospital, maxiep (the only taxpayer in america) pays for their stupidity.

We have rampant inflation in the US.

 

[bluefrog]

What do you want me to do? Move there and try it out?

I found more of this stuff while I was researching my gallbladder and I can't imagine those stories of people coming to this country for care is a lie.

My uncle had his feet crushed in a car accident with an illegal immigrant who was at fault and had no insurance. My uncle's work truck was not running that day so he was driving his personal truck. My uncle was insured up the wazoo if he was driving his work truck, but his personal truck had regular coverage. My uncle's feet were saved because the Trailblazers team orthopedic surgeon (I think that was who it was) was on call and rebuilt my uncle's feet like the Six Million Dollar Man.

My uncle lost everything because he was a self employed carpet installer. He was in the hospital for months and months.

Yet he is back working now and rebuilding his life. It would be probably be tougher having no feet. He isn't bitter about losing possessions, he is happy to be healthy.


So, would Obama pay his mortgage and electric bill when he was in the hospital?

You say people can't agree what is wrong with healthcare and how to fix it but we are supposed to trust the Democrats to fix it without bankrupting us.....doubtful.

The debate is personal for me as well.

My sister was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer in 1999. Just 4 years earlier a doctor told her it was benign.

She was dropped from her insurance at work because the treatments became too expensive and no one would pick her up because of the "pre-existing condition".

We held spaghetti dinners and set up donation jars at gas stations around town. She sold her car, mortgaged her house and very reluctantly borrowed money from family and friends to make it from bill to bill.

She wasn't as lucky as your uncle though. She passed away in 04 after 6 hard years fighting the disease.

I don't think this bill is the best solution but it's the only one being presented. If it gets voted down I fear it's the end of health care reform for the next 10 years or so.

 

[bodyman5001]

everyone knows u make up your shit to satisfy your biases. health tourism occurs all over the world- americans do it at a larger scale because of the prohibitive costs of attaining good insurance in america. just look at the thousands of patients who flock to india to undergo treatment

Of course it is cheaper in India, that is just another country that we don't seem to mind making rich at our expense. Try calling America Online's customer service number.

It is just an example but damn, your name is America Online fer fux sake.

 

[deception]

Do you have a link that confirms this (I'm not attacking you BTW)? I've read that life expectancy in the U.S. is low compare to other industrialized nations because of our diet, lack of exercise, etc....



Absolutely!!

there are 41 million ppl diagnosed with diabetes in america and another 6 million who dont know they have it. that 47 million represents nearly 1 in 6 americans and almost equals the entire population of canada and australia combined. maxiep practices funny math where entire segments of the american population could be excluded just to buttress the numbers. imagine if Australians decided they were going to omit aboriginals in their tabulation of life expectancy or how about if germany decided to the same with the plethora of turkish guest workers they have.

the decisive number is 37- thats where the WHO ranks the american health care system. where is maxiep's moral disgust about that?

 

[deception]

We have rampant inflation in the US.

england has it worse and they still manage to have lower costs with a single tier system

 

[bodyman5001]

The debate is personal for me as well.

My sister was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer in 1999. Just 4 years earlier a doctor told her it was benign.

She was dropped from her insurance at work because the treatments became too expensive and no one would pick her up because of the "pre-existing condition".

We held spaghetti dinners and set up donation jars at gas stations around town. She sold her car, mortgaged her house and very reluctantly borrowed money from family and friends to make it from bill to bill.

She wasn't as lucky as your uncle though. She passed away in 04 after 6 hard years fighting the disease.

I don't think this bill is the best solution but it's the only one being presented. If it gets voted down I fear it's the end of health care reform for the next 10 years or so.

My grandmother has a mastectomy in the 60s and she will turn 80 this year. My aunt died of breast cancer on Christmas 11 years ago. My aunt had a mastectomy after a normal diagnosis. Not late, not an unusual happening at all. It seems that it somehow happened that they didn't get it all, so 8 years later it came back and spread throughout her body including her brain.

The doctors tried everything but she just got sicker and sicker and sicker, finally they put her on an experimental drug which I am sorry to say I can't remember the name of. I hadn't seen her for a few months, the last time she was in bed near death. Well, I first saw her again at our family picnic playing softball and running the bases like a child. It looked like a miracle.

The problem was that this drug didn't affect the brain tumor. Something about the brain's defense that kept it from working. A year later the tumor killed her on Christmas.

BUT she had 10 more good months of life and this gave my grandmother and her time to make amends for an argument they had years prior.


What happened to your sister is complete and utter bullshit and anyone should know it. The problem I have is that we shouldn't let fear drive us to do something that we don't know will work, hell we really don't know what it will do at all.

It shouldn't be hard to create rules for cases like your sister's.

 

[deception]

The debate is personal for me as well.

My sister was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer in 1999. Just 4 years earlier a doctor told her it was benign.

She was dropped from her insurance at work because the treatments became too expensive and no one would pick her up because of the "pre-existing condition".

We held spaghetti dinners and set up donation jars at gas stations around town. She sold her car, mortgaged her house and very reluctantly borrowed money from family and friends to make it from bill to bill.

She wasn't as lucky as your uncle though. She passed away in 04 after 6 hard years fighting the disease.

I don't think this bill is the best solution but it's the only one being presented. If it gets voted down I fear it's the end of health care reform for the next 10 years or so.

man, thats tragic. i was so eager to belittle maxiep that i completely neglected to read your story. it kinda puts in perspective what honest, ordinary, hard working americans endure with an insurance company lobby more potent than govt. i encourage u to tell your story as often as u can at these town halls and by writing to your representatives

 

[bluefrog]

What happened to your sister is complete and utter bullshit and anyone should know it. The problem I have is that we shouldn't let fear drive us to do something that we don't know will work, hell we really don't know what it will do at all.

It shouldn't be hard to create rules for cases like your sister's.

We shouldn't rush but we have and opportunity to do something. I see more and more people around me dealing with expensive medical bills and rising premiums. Hell, it's the number one cause of bankruptcy.

I don't care if it's the Republicans or the Democrats or whoever but we need to make changes. We have dozens of nations we can look at to understand how we can implement reform. I'd like to start from scratch and have a bi-partisan report on the best way for reform. The debate has gotten WAY too politicized.

 

[Shapecity]

england has it worse and they still manage to have lower costs with a single tier system

Don't they also pay a lot higher income taxes in England and Europe to help cover the cost of these services?

I'm sure some aspects of England's system is better and would be adaptable to the current US system. If the government wants Universal healthcare with high quality they should cherry pick the best systems from around the world and go from there.

What scares me about the current proposal is if you make it too easy people are going to take advantage of it. You should spend a week visiting a hospital in California when you get a chance and see how many people take advantage of it. Individuals who take from the system and don't put back make the system worse and more expensive for the next patient.

At my age and my current health I wouldn't want to pay higher taxes for free healthcare. It's less expensive for me to pay for private healthcare. Maybe when I'm older or have children it would make more sense financially to do it.