Heaven is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death

[SlyPokerDog]

A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.

In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain's most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time.

Hawking, who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease at the age of 21, shares his thoughts on death, human purpose and our chance existence in an exclusive interview with the Guardian today.

The incurable illness was expected to kill Hawking within a few years of its symptoms arising, an outlook that turned the young scientist to Wagner, but ultimately led him to enjoy life more, he has said, despite the cloud hanging over his future.

"I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first," he said.

"I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," he added.

Hawking's latest comments go beyond those laid out in his 2010 book, The Grand Design, in which he asserted that there is no need for a creator to explain the existence of the universe. The book provoked a backlash from some religious leaders, including the chief rabbi, Lord Sacks, who accused Hawking of committing an "elementary fallacy" of logic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven

 

[mook]

I was watching a Discovery program about the sheer scale of the vastness of space and the awesomeness of things at the atomic and subatomic level, and it occurred to me that if there were a god, I would think he'd prefer you contemplate the trillions of stars in space on your Sunday morning. Everything on our little blue dot seems trite in comparison.

 

[HailBlazers]

Science Fails at totally understanding the Brain, that I know.

 

[Wheels]

doesnt the bible pretty much actually say the same thing?

 

[PapaG]

I see nothing wrong with what Hawking says, at least in theory. He is right, as a scientist, to note that the brain does shut down upon death.

What is a bit controversial, and against the scientific method, is him then assigning a motive to those who do believe in a 'heaven' without proving that is their actual motive.

 

[mook]

If he were replying maybe his theory would be something like this:

1. Evolution selects for traits that create an advantage for one genetic pool over another.

2. Pattern seeking is a highly useful trait. Knowing that a deer walked on this particular trail yesterday morning, and so may do it again today. Knowing that on this particular hillside in early autumn there are berries to be harvested. Knowing that you can bone the other cave man's wife safely on the first full moon of spring because that's when he's always out harvesting mammoth testicles. Seeing those patterns makes it much more likely genetic material gets passed down.

3. An unintended side effect of wiring an organism for ridiculous levels of pattern recognition is religion. "Sun always rises above dat mountain on longest day of year. Who do dat? Gorrack, the Mighty God of the Hairy Mammoth Testicle."

4. Once you invent such a god, it's pretty easy to think such a god really, really cares about your death, soul, afterlife, etc. Since death is the most terrifyingly consistent pattern of all.

Obviously, this is speculative on my part. He'd probably come up with something much smarter and lacking in testicles.

 

[PapaG]

If he were replying maybe his theory would be something like this:

1. Evolution selects for traits that create an advantage for one genetic pool over another.

2. Pattern seeking is a highly useful trait. Knowing that a deer walked on this particular trail yesterday morning, and so may do it again today. Knowing that on this particular hillside in early autumn there are berries to be harvested. Knowing that you can bone the other cave man's wife safely on the first full moon of spring because that's when he's always out harvesting mammoth testicles. Seeing those patterns makes it much more likely genetic material gets passed down.

3. An unintended side effect of wiring an organism for ridiculous levels of pattern recognition is religion. "Sun always rises above dat mountain on longest day of year. Who do dat? Gorrack, the Mighty God of the Hairy Mammoth Testicle."

4. Once you invent such a god, it's pretty easy to think such a god really, really cares about your death, soul, afterlife, etc. Since death is the most terrifyingly consistent pattern of all.

Obviously, this is speculative on my part. He'd probably come up with something much smarter and lacking in testicles.

I agree with his scientific arguments, and think similarly due to a lack of proof regarding a "heaven", whatever form that may take. I just find him then assigning a generic and stereotypical reasoning behind this man-made construct of "heaven" to all who believe in it to be a bit of a reach. There are plenty of philosophical arguments to be made for why cultures have put faith in an afterlife; simply saying "you're afraid to die" is a bit of a disappointment coming from such a learned and intelligent man. Then again, he is a true scientist, and the philosophy of faith-based beliefs problem doesn't interest him much.

 

[BrianFromWA]

A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.

In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain's most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time.

First part is pretty close, actually, to Christian theology. Those who fear death are in fact denying God's power and Jesus' works. Many of those who deny God's power and the effectiveness of Jesus' death in cleansing us from sin won't see heaven, and it will be a fairy story for the rest of eternity. Additionally, Hebrews talks about the fear of death being a slave to Satan:

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

We're told not to be afraid or anxious of anything, for God is sovereign, even if we don't understand it:

Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things (Philippians 4:6-8).

Second part? Well, he has just as much right to speculate as Miss Cleo. Or Paul the Apostle, author of the Corinthian letters, Philippians and Romans

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"—but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:9-10).

Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling (2 Corinthians 5:1-2).

If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection (Romans 6:5).

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).

I guess it just comes down to this:

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14).

 

[Natebishop3]

I'm one of those "spiritual but not religious" people. I believe that there's something out there, but I have a hard time believing in an established religion, mostly because I do not trust the words of men. If it was written by men, it can be twisted and false. I think that something happens after we die, but what it is I do not know, and I can not conjecture as to what it might be.

 

[MadeFromDust]

There's only one way to know for sure, until then I'll put my faith in the Lord.

Revelation 21:4

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

First part is pretty close, actually, to Christian theology. Those who fear death are in fact denying God's power and Jesus' works. Many of those who deny God's power and the effectiveness of Jesus' death in cleansing us from sin won't see heaven, and it will be a fairy story for the rest of eternity. Additionally, Hebrews talks about the fear of death being a slave to Satan:

We're told not to be afraid or anxious of anything, for God is sovereign, even if we don't understand it:


Second part? Well, he has just as much right to speculate as Miss Cleo. Or Paul the Apostle, author of the Corinthian letters, Philippians and Romans



I guess it just comes down to this:

Thanks for this BFW

I fight my "death" demons on a daily basis. Its crazy how powerful they can be. I never really read the passages you shared so thanks

 

[Run BJM]

Even if you're purely scientific about it, isn't incarnation inherent? Perhaps this isn't the case if we get buried in a casket or kept in an urn (very few of us will not have either of those I imagine), but if it was like the olden days and they just buried you you would decompose and become part of the earth. Even with the casket/urn you're bound to find your way back into the swing of things over a long enough period of time. Death is eternal, a lot can happen in an eternity. Ultimately everything is made of atoms. Stars, dirt, inanimate objects, everything. Your atoms will disperse and you'll become a multitude of different things.

It gets really trippy if you think about atoms like rolling some die. If you roll the die enough you'll get the same result at some point. Granted with atoms its on an insane scale but if time goes on forever then who says the atoms won't fall exactly back into place again at a later date? If time goes on forever then it has to happen eventually right?

Dunno about your soul or some kind of after life where your mind as it is made up now continues to exist in some heavenly state. But physically you're just a bunch of energy and atoms that can't be destroyed and can only turn into a bunch of different shit. We're all made up of borrowed atoms from trillions of sources and when its all over we'll disperse and bits will go all over the place.

 

[jlprk]

Anyone wanna hear my theory of higher dimensions? It unifies physics with religion. It explains every phenomenon in the physical, spiritual, and imagination worlds, using its basic unit, the idea.

See, the mind is higher-d and the brain is 3-d. A universe passes through its next higher d. So time relative to a specific d (e.g. 3rd or 6th) is the next-higher d (e.g. 4th or 7th). The 3-d body dies in 4-d time, but the mind or spirit live eternally relative to the 3rd d, although finitely relative to their own d.

If I keep talking, we get into relativity (a frame of reference is a 0-d point, which I call an idea) and the 1-d lines linking them (making all ideas relative to each other). The highest d unifies all ds below it. Since it includes all knowledge and power it's omniscient and omnipotent. I have the detailed structure of a psychology worked out using higher ds, but let's just save this for the book I will probably never write. I wrote this stuff down in a couple thousand pages in 1974 and I haven't touched the stuff since. It got me an A in a couple of upper-division psych courses back then.

 

[Shooter]

Anyone wanna hear my theory of higher dimensions? It unifies physics with religion. It explains every phenomenon in the physical, spiritual, and imagination worlds, using its basic unit, the idea.

See, the mind is higher-d and the brain is 3-d. A universe passes through its next higher d. So time relative to a specific d (e.g. 3rd or 6th) is the next-higher d (e.g. 4th or 7th). The 3-d body dies in 4-d time, but the mind or spirit live eternally relative to the 3rd d, although finitely relative to their own d.

If I keep talking, we get into relativity (a frame of reference is a 0-d point, which I call an idea) and the 1-d lines linking them (making all ideas relative to each other). The highest d unifies all ds below it. Since it includes all knowledge and power it's omniscient and omnipotent. I have the detailed structure of a psychology worked out using higher ds, but let's just save this for the book I will probably never write. I wrote this stuff down in a couple thousand pages in 1974 and I haven't touched the stuff since. It got me an A in a couple of upper-division psych courses back then.

A clear case of grade inflation.

 

[jlprk]

How come no one ever wants to hear my theory of higher dimensions? Back then even the professor told me to get lost. I gave my oral presentation in about 3 sittings and he told me I had an A. Then I came back and started talking some more and he told me to get lost, I already had an A.

 

[Minstrel]

 

[3RA1N1AC]

plus the fact that odin carries a large hammer and jesus was nailed to something

 

[barfo]

Blazers definitely made the right choice drafting Odin over Jesus.

barfo

 

[PapaG]

Blazers definitely made the right choice drafting Odin over Jesus.

barfo

Why? Instead of getting a God who kills Ice Giants, the Blazers received a Man who is a Glass Giant. At least Jesus could turn water into wine for the depressed fans.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I'm one of those "spiritual but not religious" people. I believe that there's something out there, but I have a hard time believing in an established religion, mostly because I do not trust the words of men. If it was written by men, it can be twisted and false. I think that something happens after we die, but what it is I do not know, and I can not conjecture as to what it might be.

If you don't trust the things written by man what makes you think there is "something out there"?

 

[PapaG]

If you don't trust the things written by man what makes you think there is "something out there"?

He didn't say there was "something out there". He said that "something happens after we die". That could be nothing, couldn't it?

NateBishop seems to be an agnostic, as I am.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

He didn't say there was "something out there". He said that "something happens after we die". That could be nothing, couldn't it?

NateBishop seems to be an agnostic, as I am.

....

I'm one of those "spiritual but not religious" people. I believe that there's something out there, but I have a hard time believing in an established religion, mostly because I do not trust the words of men. If it was written by men, it can be twisted and false. I think that something happens after we die, but what it is I do not know, and I can not conjecture as to what it might be.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

no afterlife = no reason not to take everyone out with you when you go down, son.

no repercussions!

 

[Minstrel]

no afterlife = no reason not to take everyone out with you when you go down, son.

no repercussions!

That's why I'm an agnostic. For the "shoot my way out" death option.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

you can also kill people, as long as you don't get caught since there is no moral code. :MARIS61:

 

[Minstrel]

you can also kill people, as long as you don't get caught since there is no moral code. :MARIS61:

Yes, yes, I can. Without the fetters of religion, I am free to prey upon my fellow humans in any way I desire and, believe you me, I do.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

also, the concept of monogamy is non-logical for non-believers. Fuck everything that moves.

 

[Minstrel]

also, the concept of monogamy is non-logical for non-believers. Fuck everything that moves.

I agree. Jealousy and possessiveness are entirely religious concepts...any non-religious type would have no reason to seek monogamous relationships.

I mean, eagles have monogamous relationships, but they're mostly Christian.

 

[mook]

Well, since atheists tend to know more about religion than the religious do, I guess maybe they don't necessarily live in complete ignorance of morality.

Also:

 

[mook]

Well, since atheists tend to know more about religion than the religious do, I guess maybe they don't necessarily live in complete ignorance of morality.

Anybody else take that quiz? I surprised myself by going 15/15, although I guessed on the one about the Great Awakening.

Here's a link to the actual quiz: http://features.pewforum.org/quiz/us-religious-knowledge/index.php