Height & Championships

[Tince]

When the playoffs come, teams will scheme to take away options. It's my belief that it is much harder to take away players who have a size advantage, so I wanted to take a look at the height of the last 10 NBA Finals MVPs. Here it is:



The average finals MVP is 6'-9.6" . I don't think it's random that the teams who are able to nagivate their way to an NBA championship have have an elite, versitile player. Expecting the Blazers to win a title without that player is unrealistic; am I off base?

 

[e_blazer]

Jordan had 6 Finals MVPs and Kobe won 2. Both were 6’6”. D Wade, Tony Parker, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Dennis Johnson and other shorter players have won the award. Most of them played with a really good big on their team though. I think, unless Nurk grows his game more, it’s clear that the Blazers have a need if they want a true shot in Dame’s prime.

 

[Tince]

Jordan had 6 Finals MVPs and Kobe won 2. Both were 6’6”. D Wade, Tony Parker, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Dennis Johnson and other shorter players have won the award. Most of them played with a really good big on their team though. I think, unless Nurk grows his game more, it’s clear that the Blazers have a need if they want a true shot in Dame’s prime.

So in 30 years we've had 1 guy Dame's height or shorter win the MVP and like you mentioned, he was playing along side perhaps the best PF of all-time in his prime. If Dame got paired with the best PF or C of all-time, I could see him winning the finals MVP on our way to the championship. I just don't see that guy on our roster right now. Frankly, I don't see it happening ever if I'm being honest with myself.

 

[BonesJones]

When the playoffs come, teams will scheme to take away options. It's my belief that it is much harder to take away players who have a size advantage, so I wanted to take a look at the height of the last 10 NBA Finals MVPs. Here it is:

View attachment 34039

The average finals MVP is 6'-9.6" . I don't think it's random that the teams who are able to nagivate their way to an NBA championship have have an elite, versitile player. Expecting the Blazers to win a title without that player is unrealistic; am I off base?

Curry was the best player on that Warriors team., and just as good as KD and they wouldve likely won at least another one too. 6 of the other 7 Finals MVPs were won by LeBron James or Kawhi Leonard. We just saw a 6'3 guard lead his team to upsetting Kawhi Leonard's...

 

[blazerkor]

When the playoffs come, teams will scheme to take away options. It's my belief that it is much harder to take away players who have a size advantage, so I wanted to take a look at the height of the last 10 NBA Finals MVPs. Here it is:

View attachment 34039

The average finals MVP is 6'-9.6" . I don't think it's random that the teams who are able to nagivate their way to an NBA championship have have an elite, versitile player. Expecting the Blazers to win a title without that player is unrealistic; am I off base?

We need players that better compliment Dame but to say that we can't win it with Dame as our first option, flies in the face of reality. Obviously Steph is the easy current example but we can go back to Isaiah who was the best player on two championship teams. We do need to make moves but we have a really good big who still has upside. I don't think height is our issue, our issue is perimeter D and that needs to be fixed before we get taller... which I don't even know if that's necessary except at starting shooting guard.

 

[Tince]

Curry was the best player on that Warriors team., and just as good as KD and they wouldve likely won at least another one too. 6 of the other 7 Finals MVPs were won by LeBron James or Kawhi Leonard. We just saw a 6'3 guard lead his team to upsetting Kawhi Leonard's...

Maybe they got the Finals MVP wrong the year Iggy won it. I'm not following what 6'3" guard was the finals MVP in beating Kawhi Leonard.

One 6'3" or under guard has won finals MPV in 30 years. Could be totally random, but that's a fairly big sample size.

 

[Tince]

We need players that better compliment Dame but to say that we can't win it with Dame as our first option, flies in the face of reality. Obviously Steph is the easy current example but we can go back to Isaiah who was the best player on two championship teams. We do need to make moves but we have a really good big who still has upside. I don't think height is our issue, our issue is perimeter D and that needs to be fixed before we get taller... which I don't even know if that's necessary except at starting shooting guard.

Steph is a fantastic player who was also surround by very good players over 6'4" who were not only capable of winning finals MVP, but won it all 3 times. Do you think it's totally random that despite being excellent, Curry has yet to win a Finals MVP in 5 appearances?

I don't.

 

[BonesJones]

Maybe they got the Finals MVP wrong the year Iggy won it. I'm not following what 6'3" guard was the finals MVP in beating Kawhi Leonard.

One 6'3" or under guard has won finals MPV in 30 years. Could be totally random, but that's a fairly big sample size.

If you think Andre Iguodala was more of a catalyst in that championship than Stephen Curry was, then I don't know what you tell ya...

 

[Tince]

Here's a different look at the last 30 championship teams and the impact of their starting PG:



On average, a championship teams PG was their 4 most impactful player.
6.6% of the time they were the most valueable
16.6% of the time they were the 1st or 2nd most valueable.
53.3 % of the time they weren't top 3 most valuable
13.3 % of the time they weren't top 6 most valuable

I'm not saying a team with Dame can't win the championship. I am saying the odds of a team who thinks their PG can overcome being the focal point of the opponents defensive schemes is highly unlikely. Curry, Lowery, and Billups had multiple all-star caliber players around them the years they were top 2 in playoff WS.

Lowery and Billups were hardly the focal point of their opponents defensive scheme. Curry certainly was, but teams couldn't fully take him out because Durant, Thompson, and Green would eat them apart.

 

[Tince]

If you think Andre Iguodala was more of a catalyst in that championship than Stephen Curry was, then I don't know what you tell ya...

I never said that. I thought you didn't like when people shift the narrative?

When a team uses a 6'6" and 6"10" players to double team someone, do you think it's generally more effective against a 6'2" player or a 6'9" player?

 

[Phatguysrule]

I'm with you. Nurk could be our finals MVP in a year two, but we need to get a near all star caliber wing and PF for that to happen.

 

[wizenheimer]

Olshey has made certain that Portland is totally invested in a pair of guards under 6'3.

where the NBA is strongest and where championships are made generally are with versatile 'wings'. Two way wings who play good defense and can go outside-in on offense. Ball handling wings. The Lakers just won the title with two guys who generally play like SF's-stretch-4's. Toronto won it last year with Kawhi and Siakam. The Warriors won 3 titles utilizing a bunch of 6'7-6'10 two way players to complement Curry. They didn't try to complement Curry with a poor man's version of Curry

again, the easiest path to a ring is having those two-way wings. And wings can be anywhere from DWade (rare) to AD. That's where Portland is weakest and that's where Olshey keeps trying to cheapscrew together options. it's bound to fail

that does not mean that Dame can't be the MVP of a championship team. But the Blazers really need to re-work their roster and reassign priorities. Dame needs a teammate that is at his level, or at least really close. But there's nobody like that in sight. And when there have been players like that in sight, Olshey has held significantly lesser players untouchable

 

[SharpesTriumph]

So if the Blazers went back 10 years ago and got LeBron James on their team they'd have been much more likely to win a title...

I dont see how this helps give any direction to build a title team in the 2020s. Elite two way wings have always been important. Its also the hardest position to fill. Centers used to matter now they don't and 3pt shooting is the most important skill.

Dame is a generational player but he isn't close to LeBron or peak Durant so be needs help to have a chance.

As only one of 30 teams win a title its likely no matter the direction, decisions,, or teammates; Dame won't win one.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Here's a different look at the last 30 championship teams and the impact of their starting PG:

View attachment 34042

On average, a championship teams PG was their 4 most impactful player.
6.6% of the time they were the most valueable
16.6% of the time they were the 1st or 2nd most valueable.
53.3 % of the time they weren't top 3 most valuable
13.3 % of the time they weren't top 6 most valuable

I'm not saying a team with Dame can't win the championship. I am saying the odds of a team who thinks their PG can overcome being the focal point of the opponents defensive schemes is highly unlikely. Curry, Lowery, and Billups had multiple all-star caliber players around them the years they were top 2 in playoff WS.

Lowery and Billups were hardly the focal point of their opponents defensive scheme. Curry certainly was, but teams couldn't fully take him out because Durant, Thompson, and Green would eat them apart.

These historical stats are so outdated to use for structuring a team in the 2020s. 3pt shooting and PG leading an offense are far more critical now than in prior decades. Teams score 130 points regularly, before games were often in the 80s.

Dame does need a roster with more help to contend. But it doesn't have to fit some table of a team archetype two decades ago.

 

[blazerkor]

Steph is a fantastic player who was also surround by very good players over 6'4" who were not only capable of winning finals MVP, but won it all 3 times. Do you think it's totally random that despite being excellent, Curry has yet to win a Finals MVP in 5 appearances?

I don't.

First of all, a lot of years finals MVP has been a joke. It's like the year Iggy won recently, he wasn't the most valuable player in that series, he was the player that most outperformed expectations and they do that quite a bit (Tony Parker who doesn't help my argument getting it over Duncan was wrong, Cedric Maxwell over Bird was crazy, even James Worthy over Magic was nuts and there are probably others that I just don't realize). As far as height goes... it's basketball so yeah you need players that are tall, that's not a novel idea. What you're saying though is that the taller players at least someone that is around that 6'9.5" average needs to be the focus and I'm telling you that's not accurate... it's just not. Iverson made a real run at doing it but more importantly no one on the Warriors three championship teams was more important than Steph including the years that KD jumped on the bandwagon, maybe those years KD was second fiddle but Klay at 6'6" he's still over three inches away from your theoretical ideal and was the next most important player during that "dynasty". The three best players on the Bad Boys Pistons were Isaiah Thomas 6'1", Joe Dumars 6'3" and Vinnie Johnson 6"2''. Laimbeer might have been more important than Johnson because he was the original stretch big but it's really close between those two. That team said we will get the best two way little guys we can and put brutes around them... just role players and we will win and they did.

To answer your question about Curry his problem is that he isn't a great defender, he is the player that team was built around though and that's not an accident but he doesn't play both ways. Again though, finals MVP is a joke sometimes. I think what this is really about is CJ and you are right if you think that it would be simpler to build a winner around a team whose first or second option is a bigger player but it's not necessary. We don't have problems just because our first and second option don't have size, it's because our second option lacks lateral quickness, defensive intensity, doesn't know his role on offense, is a ball stopper and when playing with the starting lineup rarely passes and we play our starters more than any other team. So yeah Dame and CJ don't fit together... I probably post that like three times a week but it's not necessarily because of their size. Also in the future don't change the goal line. You started out saying 6'9.5" and then you went to over 6'4". The fact is you need big guys to win but your team cornerstones don't need to be big guys to win big.

 

[Tince]

These historical stats are so outdated to use for structuring a team in the 2020s. 3pt shooting and PG leading an offense are far more critical now than in prior decades. Teams score 130 points regularly, before games were often in the 80s.

Dame does need a roster with more help to contend. But it doesn't have to fit some table of a team archetype two decades ago.

I respect what you're saying, but if that's true, why is the average height THIS decades of the finals MVP nearly 6'-10'? Do you think it's totally random despite guys like Harden and Westbrook being league MVPs and never getting to the finals?

I would bet no team in the next 5 years will win a title when a PG is their best player.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

When the playoffs come, teams will scheme to take away options. It's my belief that it is much harder to take away players who have a size advantage, so I wanted to take a look at the height of the last 10 NBA Finals MVPs. Here it is:

View attachment 34039

The average finals MVP is 6'-9.6" . I don't think it's random that the teams who are able to nagivate their way to an NBA championship have have an elite, versitile player. Expecting the Blazers to win a title without that player is unrealistic; am I off base?

Dirk is nothing like those other players.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

I respect what you're saying, but if that's true, why is the average height THIS decades of the finals MVP nearly 6'-10'? Do you think it's totally random despite guys like Harden and Westbrook being league MVPs and never getting to the finals?

I would bet no team in the next 5 years will win a title when a PG is their best player.

Harden and Westbrook have gotten to the finals.

 

[Tince]

First of all, a lot of years finals MVP has been a joke. It's like the year Iggy won recently, he wasn't the most valuable player in that series, he was the player that most outperformed expectations and they do that quite a bit (Tony Parker who doesn't help my argument getting it over Duncan was wrong, Cedric Maxwell over Bird was crazy, even James Worthy over Magic was nuts and there are probably others that I just don't realize). As far as height goes... it's basketball so yeah you need players that are tall, that's not a novel idea. What you're saying though is that the taller players at least someone that is around that 6'9.5" average needs to be the focus and I'm telling you that's not accurate... it's just not. Iverson made a real run at doing it but more importantly no one on the Warriors three championship teams was more important than Steph including the years that KD jumped on the bandwagon, maybe those years KD was second fiddle but Klay at 6'6" he's still over three inches away from your theoretical ideal and was the next most important player during that "dynasty". The three best players on the Bad Boys Pistons were Isaiah Thomas 6'1", Joe Dumars 6'3" and Vinnie Johnson 6"2''. Laimbeer might have been more important than Johnson because he was the original stretch big but it's really close between those two. That team said we will get the best two way little guys we can and put brutes around them... just role players and we will win and they did.

To answer your question about Curry his problem is that he isn't a great defender, he is the player that team was built around though and that's not an accident but he doesn't play both ways. Again though, finals MVP is a joke sometimes. I think what this is really about is CJ and you are right if you think that it would be simpler to build a winner around a team whose first or second option is a bigger player but it's not necessary. We don't have problems just because our first and second option don't have size, it's because our second option lacks lateral quickness, defensive intensity, doesn't know his role on offense, is a ball stopper and when playing with the starting lineup rarely passes and we play our starters more than any other team. So yeah Dame and CJ don't fit together... I probably post that like three times a week but it's not necessarily because of their size. Also in the future don't change the goal line. You started out saying 6'9.5" and then you went to over 6'4". The fact is you need big guys to win but your team cornerstones don't need to be big guys to win big.

Fair enough. You're saying you don't have to have that, but almost every championship team does. I'm sure you could construct a team (if salaries and trades didn't have to be real) where Dame is the best player on a championship team, but even then the margin of error would be so slim.

I'll take the odds of a KD, Lebron, Giannis, or Luka lead team over a Harden, Dame, Westbrook, or Kyrie Irving lead team in the playoffs. And Dame is by far my favorite player, but length still matters in my opinion

 

[Tince]

Harden and Westbrook have gotten to the finals.

Exactly. MVP PGs in the regular season, but they're effectiveness is more easily reduced in the playoffs. That's exactly my point.

 

[Tince]

Dirk is nothing like those other players.

With the exception that he can see over a double team and/or is less impacted by a lengthy defender than someone who 6'-4". That's my whole point.

 

[BonesJones]

I never said that. I thought you didn't like when people shift the narrative?

When a team uses a 6'6" and 6"10" players to double team someone, do you think it's generally more effective against a 6'2" player or a 6'9" player?

Having a 6'6 and 6'10 player double teaming someone is a lot different than them winning a Finals MVP. So I'm not really sure what your narrative is.

 

[Tince]

Having a 6'6 and 6'10 player double teaming someone is a lot different than them winning a Finals MVP. So I'm not really sure what your narrative is.

The narrative is this:

In playoff runs, you're going to have teams with way more time to gameplan. These gameplans typically involve taking away a teams #1 primary scoring option. It is my theory that an opponent will have to ability to employ more and effective options at reducing the a primary scoring option that is 6'-2" vs one that is 6'-9". I think this is why you see guys like Harden, Westbrook, and Curry win regular season MVPs but taller guys win Finals MVPs. I'm open to other theories to why only one 6'-2" player in the last 30 years has been a Finals MVP.

 

[RoseCityRebel]

Maybe they got the Finals MVP wrong the year Iggy won it. I'm not following what 6'3" guard was the finals MVP in beating Kawhi Leonard.

One 6'3" or under guard has won finals MPV in 30 years. Could be totally random, but that's a fairly big sample size.

Iggy “won” that Finals MVP primarily for his defense on LeBron.

LeBron didn’t have a healthy Irving or Love and still averaged 36/13/9 and somehow took that series to 6 games. That was Iggy’s “great” defense.

Not big on losing players being Finals MVP but LeBron was by far the MVP of that series. It’s 4 straight blowouts without him on the court. Well, they wouldn’t haven’t even made the Finals, that’s how valuable he was to that team.

James/Mozgov/Dellavedova/Tristan Thompson/Shumpert started 5 out the 6 games. That’s a 15-win team at best without LeBron and it made it to Game 6 against a 67-win team.

 

[Tince]

Iggy “won” that Finals MVP primarily for his defense on LeBron.

LeBron didn’t have a healthy Irving or Love and still averaged 36/13/9 and somehow took that series to 6 games. That was Iggy’s “great” defense.

Not big on losing players being Finals MVP but LeBron was by far the MVP of that series. It’s 4 straight blowouts without him on the court. Well, they wouldn’t haven’t even made the Finals, that’s how valuable he was to that team.

James/Mozgov/Dellavedova/Tristan Thompson/Shumpert started 5 out the 6 games. That’s a 15-win team at best without LeBron and it made it to Game 6 against a 67-win team.

I agree with you the LBJ was the best player in that series. Which furthers my point: A team with a guy who is well above average height for his position is going to be at a major advantage over a team who's #1 option is at or below average height for his position. Iggy appears to be the outlier in that 10 year list for multiple reasons. He's also the shortest player on that list.

The other 9 players are either above average height+reach for their position.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I respect what you're saying, but if that's true, why is the average height THIS decades of the finals MVP nearly 6'-10'? Do you think it's totally random despite guys like Harden and Westbrook being league MVPs and never getting to the finals?

I would bet no team in the next 5 years will win a title when a PG is their best player.

My answer would be that Lebron was in all but one of those series, so the MVP was either him, or the player guarding him (and/or succeeding despite Lebron's best defensive efforts) nearly every time.

 

[BonesJones]

The narrative is this:

In playoff runs, you're going to have teams with way more time to gameplan. These gameplans typically involve taking away a teams #1 primary scoring option. It is my theory that an opponent will have to ability to employ more and effective options at reducing the a primary scoring option that is 6'-2" vs one that is 6'-9". I think this is why you see guys like Harden, Westbrook, and Curry win regular season MVPs but taller guys win Finals MVPs. I'm open to other theories to why only one 6'-2" player in the last 30 years has been a Finals MVP.

Steph's playoff scoring wasn't neutralized. You have to use said 6'2 player in more creative ways than simply running pick n roll and isolating him, though.

Guys like Jimmy Butler and Kawhi Leonard would struggle against the type of defenses Dame faces, but theres reasons why they dont, and it's not due to them being taller.

 

[Tince]

Steph's playoff scoring wasn't neutralized. You have to use said 6'2 player in more creative ways than simply running pick n roll and isolating him, though.

Guys like Jimmy Butler and Kawhi Leonard would struggle against the type of defenses Dame faces, but theres reasons why they dont, and it's not due to them being taller.

Correct, he was not. He had an MVP next to him in 2 of the 3 finals wins. 2 all-stars (one elite shooter, one elite player maker) and a finals MVP around him in the other. Would expect Dame to get less defensive attention if he had Durant, Klay, and Green on the court with him. You agree?

Why do you think it's so rare for an NBA finals champion to have their best player be 6'-2"? Totally random that it rarely happens?

 

[Tince]

My answer would be that Lebron was in all but one of those series, so the MVP was either him, or the player guarding him (and/or succeeding despite Lebron's best defensive efforts) nearly every time.

Very possible. So with Lebron entering his 18th season, do you expect the majority or even any of the next 5 NBA champions to have someone under 6'-6" (average NBA height) be their best player?

My guess is the next NBA champions will be teams that either have or can slow down guys like LBJ, AD, Leonard, Luka, Durant, and Giannis. I'd take that group over Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Dame, Kyrie, etc. I could be wrong though, I hope I'm wrong.

 

[TBpup]

Wings have been a huge part of success for years....and Giannis was available to put with Dame. Instead, Olshey duplicated what he already had and got another smallish scoring guard who didn't play defense. It shocks me that D69 knew ADAMANTLY months before the Draft that Antetokounmpo was WAY undervalued and Olshey (among others) completely missed. It's the duplication that bothers me. They had a small scoring guard....why select another when historically 2 small, scoring, no-defense guards hasn't won an NBA championship in what, 5 decades?

It was so simple. I remember D69 and the usual gang being over for the Draft and as pick after pick went by and Giannis was still availble, we were beyond ecstatic. It would be the perfect balance, length, defense and a rim attacker to offset Dame's outside shooting, passing and court management.

And then...ugh. Nice player, but you could just feel that it would destine the team to a decade of mediocrity....which is about what has happened.

Olshy trying to outsmart history. Brutal!