Hero ball = top lottery pick

[Reep]

I listened to most of the game (blacked out here in SoCal), but if this is what we have to look forward to all season, then I will save a lot of time by not watching games.

I'm not talking about the loss, I'm talking about Dame and CJ jacking up 50 attempts while the rest of the team combined get 35. Really? So much for ball movement and the Stotts offense.

I was excited about watching this team because you would never know who was going to beat you. Pick your poison. But, if a team knows that 60% of the time it will be Dame or CJ shooting then I guess you don't have to worry about the other guys so much.

If Dame and CJ average over 45 attempts a game for the season then I will switch to the under on 21 wins. Yuck.

 

[BonesJones]

I listened to most of the game (blacked out here in SoCal), but if this is what we have to look forward to all season, then I will save a lot of time by not watching games.

I'm not talking about the loss, I'm talking about Dame and CJ jacking up 50 attempts while the rest of the team combined get 35. Really? So much for ball movement and the Stotts offense.

I was excited about watching this team because you would never know who was going to beat you. Pick your poison. But, if a team knows that 60% of the time it will be Dame or CJ shooting then I guess you don't have to worry about the other guys so much.

If Dame and CJ average over 45 attempts a game for the season then I will switch to the under on 21 wins. Yuck.

So you have a problem with our top 2 scorers (one whos a budding superstar) taking the most shots? Yes 60% of the shots is a lot, but it was one preseason game where they didn't have Aminu or Henderson.. It'd be silly to expect that every night. And as far as the opposite team knowing who's gonna shoot it... We have Lillard... Duh he's gonna shoot it a lot. Everyone knowing that doesnt mean we should not let our best player shoot...

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Playing two on five rarely wins games. Gotta agree 100% with Reep. Hero ball is no more fun to watch than the old "toss it into LA and watch the game slow to a snails pace" brand we saw these past 3 years. We have young athletic potential from 1-10. Let's use every bit of it. Stay tuned for my upcoming "Trade CJ" thread if he continues to care more about his stats than team ball....

 

[Trackjack]

When your hot like they was in the 1st half be all means shoot the ball like they did. But when it start going south and you look to other to see if can find another hot hand out there. I think when harkless went down with a hurt ankle that hurt the team both sides of the ball.

 

[Reep]

So you have a problem with our top 2 scorers (one whos a budding superstar) taking the must shots? Yes 60% of the shots is a lot, but it was one preseason game where they didn't have Aminu or Henderson.. It'd be silly to expect that every night. And as far as the opposite team knowing who's gonna shoot it... We have Lillard... Duh he's gonna shoot it a lot. Everyone knowing that doesnt mean we should not let our best player shoot...

Just to be clear, I have no problem seeing Dame and CJ taking more shots (per person) than anyone else on the team. BUT, I would rather see Dame at 20-25 and CJ 15-20. I know Hark was injured but 18 minutes with no shot attempts??? Your four bigs combined for 19 attempts??? I blame that on the "point guards". Dame and CJ have to get others involved or else you will have a lot of games like this where Dame and CJ fade because they get tired and the rest of the team can't step up because you can't get any kind of rhythm when you only get 5 shots for the game. Leonard should be 10+. A 4-4 Vonleh should be 8+ shots. Glad to see Crabbe at least get 11 off.

Yes, it is a preseason game, and maybe coach or the players wanted to see what would happen if they dominated the ball. I hope it doesn't happen often. My fear is that Dame and CJ start seeing this as their year to be "the best backcourt in the NBA" and our developing wings and bigs end up with five or less attempts per game.

I personally believe that Harkless and Vonleh, and maybe Leonard have much better potential than CJ does. So why does CJ get 20 shots and those three combine for 10?? Bad ball management by the point guards.

 

[B-Roy]

I noticed no one wrote anything about it, but Hark rolled his ankle or something at the start of the 3rd and they took him out for the rest of the game.

 

[Draco]

Maybe you should watch games before making criticisms. We had 15 assists on our first 22 field goals. Nothing was wrong with the ball movement there. The Clippers started making shots which reduced our transition opportunities. The Clippers also defended our team much tighter in the half court; nobody except for Dame and CJ could create their own shot. That is going to be a legit concern this season. Stotts can put whatever system he wants out there but eventually a players has to be able to break down a defense. Mo was injured, Aminu didn't dress so we were very weak with our wings.

Meyers is reluctant to shoot. Vonleh had a wide open corner three Dame got him but he passed up the shot and Dame had to force a poor look. I think we'll have more of these struggles at times in the season but it wasn't two players playing selfish nor proving Stotts has a bad system.

 

[illmatic99]

Maybe you should watch games before making criticisms. We had 15 assists on our first 22 field goals. Nothing was wrong with the ball movement there. The Clippers started making shots which reduced our transition opportunities. The Clippers also defended our team much tighter in the half court; nobody except for Dame and CJ could create their own shot. Mo was injured, Aminu didn't dress so we were very weak with our wings.

Meyers is reluctant to shoot. Vonleh had a wide open corner three Dame got him but he passed up the shot and Dame had to force a poor look. I think we'll have more of these struggles at times in the season but it wasn't two players playing selfish nor proving Stotts has a bad system.

Yup. ball movement was gorgeous early in the game, but it went to shit when guys got scared to shoot. Dame started forcing in the fourth as a result-- definitely not pretty.

 

[Reep]

So when the the game starts to change and the non point guards get a bit nervous then Dame and CJ should just take over? I disagree. I think it is the point guards' job to keep people involved and get them to take the shots.

When your point guards play hero ball and nobody else is getting shots, then when the tide turns they are out of rhythm and nervous. If they were involved the entire game then this is less likely to happen. Even when Dame and CJ are "feeling" it, my point is they need to involve the rest of the team more because at some point they may stop feeling it and then what is the team going to do?

Compare this the the excellent Golden State win. Dame and CJ combine for 31 shots and the rest of the team takes 59. This game was inverted.

 

[Trackjack]

Yup. ball movement was gorgeous early in the game, but it went to shit when guys got scared to shoot. Dame started forcing in the fourth as a result-- definitely not pretty.

If that the case then the coach need to get in the ear of others and tell them to shoot if open. But look like the other players don't have the confidence yet. That could be a problem with our young guys. But that will change when Henderson and Aminu comes back.

 

[TBpup]

Since it's very doubtful we make the playoffs anyhow, I'm happy with a top-3 pick. Play everyone about 24 minutes to see what you have, maybe thin out the 'potential' for quality or a pick and go with quality + an impact Lotto pick and then the next 2 years watch them start to gell and become a contender. This season is about development, not wins. We fans have to be patient.

 

[Strenuus]

Yup. ball movement was gorgeous early in the game, but it went to shit when guys got scared to shoot. Dame started forcing in the fourth as a result-- definitely not pretty.

I'd actually say they werent scared to shoot... they were too nervous to think about when to take the right shot, and thus made ill-advised shot attempts (Connaughton did it a few times).

 

[Reep]

Since it's very doubtful we make the playoffs anyhow, I'm happy with a top-3 pick. Play everyone about 24 minutes to see what you have, maybe thin out the 'potential' for quality or a pick and go with quality + an impact Lotto pick and then the next 2 years watch them start to gell and become a contender. This season is about development, not wins. We fans have to be patient.

I'm fine with this too. Part of my concern, in addition to not liking hero ball, is that if Dame and CJ are dominating the ball and the shots, then guys like Harkless, Leonard and Vonleh and not getting the development and shots they need. Hopefully it is just an anomaly.

 

[Strenuus]

Since it's very doubtful we make the playoffs anyhow, I'm happy with a top-3 pick. Play everyone about 24 minutes to see what you have, maybe thin out the 'potential' for quality or a pick and go with quality + an impact Lotto pick and then the next 2 years watch them start to gell and become a contender. This season is about development, not wins. We fans have to be patient.

Can that be the tag line for this year? So true.

 

[BonesJones]

Just to be clear, I have no problem seeing Dame and CJ taking more shots (per person) than anyone else on the team. BUT, I would rather see Dame at 20-25 and CJ 15-20. I know Hark was injured but 18 minutes with no shot attempts??? Your four bigs combined for 19 attempts??? I blame that on the "point guards". Dame and CJ have to get others involved or else you will have a lot of games like this where Dame and CJ fade because they get tired and the rest of the team can't step up because you can't get any kind of rhythm when you only get 5 shots for the game. Leonard should be 10+. A 4-4 Vonleh should be 8+ shots. Glad to see Crabbe at least get 11 off.

Yes, it is a preseason game, and maybe coach or the players wanted to see what would happen if they dominated the ball. I hope it doesn't happen often. My fear is that Dame and CJ start seeing this as their year to be "the best backcourt in the NBA" and our developing wings and bigs end up with five or less attempts per game.

I personally believe that Harkless and Vonleh, and maybe Leonard have much better potential than CJ does. So why does CJ get 20 shots and those three combine for 10?? Bad ball management by the point guards.

since were only talking about shot attempts you think those guys have more potential as scorers?

 

[Reep]

since were only talking about shot attempts you think those guys have more potential as scorers?

I object to the premise of the question. I said that I think the other three have better potential--not just as scorers, but all-around. CJ is pretty much only a scorer--so he should score, just not at the expense of everyone else. I think Harkless, Vonleh and Leonard could each score 75% of what CJ could given 75% as many shot attempts, but with experience will provide much better defense and rebounding than CJ. And, I think each of them will be much more efficient scorers than CJ.

 

[BonesJones]

I object to the premise of the question. I said that I think the other three have better potential--not just as scorers, but all-around. CJ is pretty much only a scorer--so he should score, just not at the expense of everyone else. I think Harkless, Vonleh and Leonard could each score 75% of what CJ could given 75% as many shot attempts, but with experience will provide much better defense and rebounding than CJ. And, I think each of them will be much more efficient scorers than CJ.

You have it all wrong. They could never find a way get off 75% of the shot attempts CJ does unless they started jacking up awful shots they aren't comfortable with, and if they did that, they would shoot a worse percentage than CJ, but without the create and dish ability that CJ and Dame have when they're aggressive. Comparing defensive ability between those guys is irrelevant since they play different positions and we don't need CJ to be a great rebounder.

 

[Reep]

You have it all wrong. They could never find a way get off 75% of the shot attempts CJ does unless they started jacking up awful shots they aren't comfortable with, and if they did that, they would shoot a worse percentage than CJ, but without the create and dish ability that CJ and Dame have when they're aggressive. Comparing defensive ability between those guys is irrelevant since they play different positions and we don't need CJ to be a great rebounder.

Look at the shot numbers for the Golden State game. That is all I'm looking for. Just balance. And my 75% is not based on CJ chucking 20-30 shots, but what he should be taking.

Damian has averaged a very consistent 15.7-16.6 attempts/game over the last three years. I expect CJ to be just below that. For reference Wes and Nic were about 11-12 attempts/game. I would like CJ to be 10-15 and Harkless to be about 8-10, Leonard to be about 10 and Vonleh to be about 10.

 

[blue9]

nobody except for Dame and CJ could create their own shot. That is going to be a legit concern this season. Stotts can put whatever system he wants out there but eventually a players has to be able to break down a defense.

I disagree with this sentiment. I agree that Dame and CJ (and Henderson, and maybe to a lesser extent Harkless) are the only guys who can create their own shot. But a good coach would create PLAYS that create good shots for everyone on the team. Picks, passing, and cuts will do a better job of creating offense than a player breaking down the defense - that's just ISO ball.

What I'll be keeping my eye on this season is whether Stotts has any decent plays in his playbook, or if we're still mostly freelancing on offense. I suspect it'll be the latter, in which case I'm glad this is a contract year for Stotts - hopefully we don't extend him.

I also think Dame (and CJ) needs to put more emphasis on play-making rather than scoring. Develop skills that can lead to future wins. Once they're a legit threat passing the ball they'll be more effective scoring the ball.

 

[Schilly]

Interesting considering the games I have watched so far this preseason there has been excellent ball movement and distribution. Reminds me to judge by the total body of work, not just a single game or even half or quarter.

 

[BonesJones]

Look at the shot numbers for the Golden State game. That is all I'm looking for. Just balance. And my 75% is not based on CJ chucking 20-30 shots, but what he should be taking.

Damian has averaged a very consistent 15.7-16.6 attempts/game over the last three years. I expect CJ to be just below that. For reference Wes and Nic were about 11-12 attempts/game. I would like CJ to be 10-15 and Harkless to be about 8-10, Leonard to be about 10 and Vonleh to be about 10.

You're operating on the premise of handing out shot attempts like they're candy bars on Halloween.

For those guys to get good shoots you need CJ and Dame to be aggressive, and sometimes that aggression will result in 20+ attempts for each.

You're acting like the combined 50 shots by those two last night is what lost them the game.. Even though they shot 44% combined. (Not great, but not awful)

 

[Reep]

You're operating on the premise of handing out shot attempts like they're candy bars on Halloween.

For those guys to get good shoots you need CJ and Dame to be aggressive, and sometimes that aggression will result in 20+ attempts for each.

You're acting like the combined 50 shots by those two last night is what lost them the game.. Even though they shot 44% combined. (Not great, but not awful)

I stated up front that I don't care about the loss. They lost because of poor defense.

My points are these:
1) I don't like watching teams where two players dominate the ball and the number of shots--even if they are contenders
2) I don't think Dame and CJ jacking up 20+ attempts each develops other players
3) I don't think Dame and CJ jacking up 20+ shots will lead to many wins
4) I don't think Dame and CJ jacking up 20+ shots will keep the fresh by the end of the game when we likely need them most
5) I don't think Dame and CJ jacking up 20+ shots will enable other players to get into the flow of the game

Curry and Klay both averaged 17 shots/game last season. That left room for three other players to get 8+ shots and a whole bunch to get 5+. Last night only one non-pg got more than 6 attempts.

Right now Dame and CJ are not as good as Curry and Klay, so I don't expect to see them exceed those numbers generally. FWIW, Curry then bumped up to 21 shots in the playoffs, which I would expect Dame (and only Dame) to do also.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

You're operating on the premise of handing out shot attempts like they're candy bars on Halloween.

For those guys to get good shoots you need CJ and Dame to be aggressive, and sometimes that aggression will result in 20+ attempts for each.

You're acting like the combined 50 shots by those two last night is what lost them the game.. Even though they shot 44% combined. (Not great, but not awful)

To back you up, Dame/CJ scored a combined 61 points on essentially 56 possessions (50 shots plus 12 free throws). The rest of the team scored 48 points on a combined approx. 43 possessions (35 shots, 17 free throws). The efficiency figures were basically equal.

 

[BlazerBeav]

There were definitely some late possessions where CJ or Dame passed the ball off to a teammate for a good look, only to have the ball sent right back to them. Your premise is correct - we can't have that many shots coming from our two guards - but I don't believe it was all the fault of the two guards.

 

[BonesJones]

I stated up front that I don't care about the loss. They lost because of poor defense.

My points are these:
1) I don't like watching teams where two players dominate the ball and the number of shots--even if they are contenders
2) I don't think Dame and CJ jacking up 20+ attempts each develops other players
3) I don't think Dame and CJ jacking up 20+ shots will lead to many wins
4) I don't think Dame and CJ jacking up 20+ shots will keep the fresh by the end of the game when we likely need them most
5) I don't think Dame and CJ jacking up 20+ shots will enable other players to get into the flow of the game

Curry and Klay both averaged 17 shots/game last season. That left room for three other players to get 8+ shots and a whole bunch to get 5+. Last night only one non-pg got more than 6 attempts.

Right now Dame and CJ are not as good as Curry and Klay, so I don't expect to see them exceed those numbers generally. FWIW, Curry then bumped up to 21 shots in the playoffs, which I would expect Dame (and only Dame) to do also.

Curry and Klay also had Iggy, David Lee, Harrison Barnes, Barbosa, Bogut and so forth, while they also sat out some minutes in garbage time.

You have failed to address the points I have made that contradict yours so I'm done with this discussion.

 

[BigGameDamian]

I listened to most of the game (blacked out here in SoCal), but if this is what we have to look forward to all season, then I will save a lot of time by not watching games.

I'm not talking about the loss, I'm talking about Dame and CJ jacking up 50 attempts while the rest of the team combined get 35. Really? So much for ball movement and the Stotts offense.

I was excited about watching this team because you would never know who was going to beat you. Pick your poison. But, if a team knows that 60% of the time it will be Dame or CJ shooting then I guess you don't have to worry about the other guys so much.

If Dame and CJ average over 45 attempts a game for the season then I will switch to the under on 21 wins. Yuck.

And you weren't expecting this why? Listen, this team doesn't have a lot of experienced players. I don't know why anyone would think otherwise. totally expected.

 

[Reep]

There were definitely some late possessions where CJ or Dame passed the ball off to a teammate for a good look, only to have the ball sent right back to them. Your premise is correct - we can't have that many shots coming from our two guards - but I don't believe it was all the fault of the two guards.

I don't believe the loss was the fault of the guards either. If we had Aminu or Harkless for the full game then we might have won. Defense lost the game.

And it is not completely on Dame and CJ to distribute shots. Part of it is them, part of it is coaching, part of it is the rest of the team stepping up and being aggressive. It's not about fault to me. It is just that this season is supposed to be about developing this team and these players in a ball movement offense. If Dame and CJ take 20+ shots then none of that is really accomplished. I don't expect that this is the beginning of a trend. All I am saying is that if it is the start of a trend then I don't want to watch it.

 

[Reep]

Curry and Klay also had Iggy, David Lee, Harrison Barnes, Barbosa, Bogut and so forth, while they also sat out some minutes in garbage time.

You have failed to address the points I have made that contradict yours so I'm done with this discussion.

I'm not sure what your points were. Replace Iggy . . . Bogut with Harkless, Leonard, Vonleh, Aminu, Plumlee, Davis and I don't see the difference. I would argue that the Curry and Klay gap between them and the rest of their team is greater than what Portland has right now. If Curry and Klay can get others involved, so can Dame and CJ.

I think we are probably not really that far apart. This was one game and an unusual one at that. Dame and CJ started hot and finished cold. The supporting cast never got up to speed to fill the void and they lost. I am pretty sure that you don't want Dame and CJ to average 20+ all season either. Certainly they will have games where they are hot and should take more shots. But, even when they are hot, I think it is important to recognize that they may not stay that way and make sure to involve others in case they get cold or tired.

 

[Reep]

Interesting considering the games I have watched so far this preseason there has been excellent ball movement and distribution. Reminds me to judge by the total body of work, not just a single game or even half or quarter.

Agreed, and I hope this was just an anomaly. My main concern is that usually the last game of preseason starts to look more like what the team plans on doing in the regular season. Hopefully that isn't the case.

 

[Nikolokolus]

So you have a problem with our top 2 scorers (one whos a budding superstar) taking the must shots? Yes 60% of the shots is a lot, but it was one preseason game where they didn't have Aminu or Henderson.. It'd be silly to expect that every night. And as far as the opposite team knowing who's gonna shoot it... We have Lillard... Duh he's gonna shoot it a lot. Everyone knowing that doesnt mean we should not let our best player shoot...

You won't hear a bad word from me. Get that top five pick baby!